Paul and the Resurrection?

[AHIMSA]

I am posting this here because its more relevant in this forum:

* We are discussing ONLY the writings of Paul

It is my contention that Paul is in tension with the Gospel accounf of the resurrection. If we examine Paul's writings we see that Jesus' resurrection was spiritual and cosmic and a gaurantee of our own comsic and spiritual resurrection. This is the crux of his message.


To Paul the Risen Jesus was a cosmic figure that had risen to the heavenly planes. His resurection is what declared him him to be the Christ (not Jesus himself)and his ministry begins with his resurrection. Note "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature, was a descendent of David and who through the Spirit of holiness was delcared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord" Rom. 1:2

This is why Paul virtually speaks solely of the Risen Christ and not the Jesus that walked the earth. In his new spiritual body, Jesus was certainly "larger" or greater than any human being because he was in the spiritual body. "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory (the glory of Christ?) It is sown a natural body but is raised a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44

Paul calls Jesus the "last Adam". This in itself is a semi-admission of Jesus' humanity. The name Adam is related to "from the ground" and is often used interchangably with the word "man". "The first Adam became a living being, the last Adam (Jesus) became a life giving spirit"Jesus becomes a life giving spirit, notably "through his resurrection from the dead".

Paul constantly notes that Jesus' resurrection is a gaurantee of our own. The resurrection is clearly a spiritual or cosmic event. It is not physcial, but arises from the physical. Paul's spiritual vision of Jesus on Damascus is never contrasted with the encounter of the Risen Christ by the disciples in his letters. We can infer that Paul's vision of Christ is the resurrected Christ as he appeared to all in his resurrection. Note Paul's disclosure of a mystery, that we will "all be changed" and that the "dead will be raised imperishable" (clearly the spiritual)...note that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corin. 15:50). Paul is fundamentally in tension with the Gospel's idea of a physcially resurrected Jesus.

Jesus is the first among the resurrected. His resurrection is a sign, a guarantee of our own. He is the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus, now in his spiritual body, having entered the Kingdom of God, having swallowed up death, is the Christ who will return to bring back all believers into what he himself has achieved. For what he has done, he "sits at the right hand of God" the highest place of honor. He is God's Son, as the one upon whom unique favor has been bestowed.

 

[Rick W]

First of all, the common misconception that "Son of God" means that Jesus is God has to be wiped. Especially in the times in which the gospels were written, Son of God was a Davidic title that the Jews used to refer to one who was uniquely in God's favor.

If we stick to the synoptics and Paul, one struggles to see Jesus as God, as opposed to an agent of the divine, or unique messenger. We'll begin with Paul.

To Paul, for example, the Risen Jesus was a cosmic figure that had risen to the heavenly planes. His resurection is what declared him him to be the Christ and his ministry begins with his resurrection. Note "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature, was a descendent of David and who through the Spirit of holiness was delcared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead; Jesus Christ our Lord" Rom. 1:2

This is why Paul virtually speaks solely of the Risen Christ and not the Jesus that walked the earth. In his new spiritual body, Jesus was certainly "larger" or greater than any human being because he was in the spiritual body. "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory (the glory of Christ?) It is sown a natural body but is raised a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44

Paul calls Jesus the "last Adam". This in itself is a semi-admission of Jesus' humanity. The name Adam is related to "from the ground" and is often used interchangably with the word "man". "The first Adam became a living being, the last Adam (Jesus) became a life giving spirit"Jesus becomes a life giving spirit, notably "through his resurrection from the dead".

Paul constantly notes that Jesus' resurrection is a gaurantee of our own. The resurrection is clearly a spiritual or cosmic event. It is not physcial, but arises from the physical. Paul's spiritual vision of Jesus on Damascus is never contrasted with the encounter of the Risen Christ by the disciples in his letters. We can infer that Paul's vision of Christ is the resurrected Christ as he appeared to all in his resurrection. Note Paul's disclosure of a mystery, that we will "all be changed" and that the "dead will be raised imperishable" (clearly the spiritual)...note that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corin. 15:50). Paul is fundamentally in tension with the Gospel's idea of a physcially resurrected Jesus.

Jesus is the first among the resurrected. His resurrection is a sign, a guarantee of our own. He is the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus, now in his spiritual body, having entered the Kingdom of God, having swallowed up death, is the Christ who will return to bring back all believers into what he himself has achieved. For what he has done, he "sits at the right hand of God" the highest place of honor. He is God's Son, as the one upon whom unique favor has been bestowed.

Before we move to the Gospels, lets examine the message of Paul by itself. I don't think one can disprove, with his own writings, that Jesus' resurrection was spiritual and cosmic and a gaurantee of our own comsic and spiritual resurrection. This is the crux of his message, and in it lies no claim of Godhood.

So this has to do with the Where in the bible thread in "Christianity & Other Religions" concerning Jesus is God.

"If we stick to the synoptics and Paul"
Why?
"one struggles to see Jesus as God"
Depends on what you want to believe I suppose.

Then your motive for this topic is to dismiss scripture written by Paul that may be used as evidence Jesus is God as inconsequential or irrelevant to that topic.
You just can't slice and dice scripture to fit a particular fancy.

 

[AHIMSA]

Depends on what you want to believe I suppose.

That definitely goes both ways. However, the other topic struck my interest in this particular topic.. So many Christians just meld every piece of the New Testament together and assume that all the separate writings are saying the same thing. This is simply not the case. The NT is riddled with different theologies and outlooks. I thought it would be interesting to discuss this.

 

[guibox]

AHIMSA,

I don't fully understand why you feel Paul is 'in tension' with the rest of the gospels? To me it is the focus that is important.

The gospels have already dealt with the life of Christ. Paul is concerned with the salvation Christ brought. Paul is preaching to pagans for most of his ministry. It is important to emphasise WHY we would follow Jesus Christ instead of Plato or Socrates.

What makes Christ worthy to be praised? Because He saved us? How did He save us? By dying an dresurrecting. What did this prove? That He is the Son of God, that He can now forgive us our sins and we now can enter the kingdom.

How do we do that and in what way?

Just like Jesus did!

Paul then goes on to emphasis how Jesus died and rose, what form He took and how this is the 'first fruits' of mankind. Just as He died and rose and had a spiritual body, so to will we.

You see the pagans believed in the immortality of the soul. They didn't car about a body. Paul was showing them that eternal life was not realized in a bodiless existence going to heaven at death, but in resurrection where we would indeed receive a spiritual body. He emphasises the difference between the earthly body and the spiritual body for just this reason. The pagans would have agreed that 'we can't inherit the kingdom with flesh and blood' but they wouldn't care about any other body either.

This is why Paul emphasises the spiritual body to the resurrection of Christ as He did.

So you see, it is not tension, but merely a centered focus on another aspect of Christ's ministry that the gospels don't talk about.

 

[AHIMSA]

Why is it everytime a contradiction is exposed someone says "its a difference of emphasis".

When we examine scripture, we find that Paul believed the resurrection to be a cosmic event, a spiritual resurection and ascension.

Note that experience of Jesus is the archetype for the human spiritual experience. We too must "be crucified in Christ" and share in his death, so too do we share in his resurrection.

The resurrection and the ascension are the same event in Paul's mind. He never mentions Jesus' ascension because Christ rises into heaven. This is the Resurrection, a definite contrast to the idea of Sheol. This is why Paul will refer to the dead as "sleeping".

"We will not die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will all be changed." 1 Cor. 15:50

To Paul this is the defeat of death; divine rapture that transformed the physical body into a spiritual body. He further explains this in Thessolonians:

"Then we who are alive, who are left will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air" 1 Thes. 4:17

This is clearly the ascent of the spirit into heaven, just as Christ was raised into heaven, so will our resurrection raise us into heaven at his second coming (which Paul thought was coming in his life).

"Blood and flesh can not inherit the kingdom", Jesus is "declared to be the Son of God with power throug his resurrection from the dead" "it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body", we "will be caught up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air"

It is clear that the notion that Jesus rose in the flesh and walked around the earth for forty days is simply not present in Paul's thinking. Jesus, after three days, ascended into heaven directly from the grave, and event which declared him to be the messiah. In this same way, the "dead in Christ will be raised first", that is, those in the grave will rise into heaven just like Christ. Then "we who are alive will meet the Lord in the air", the living will then experience a radical transformation, will recieve a new spiritual body and rise into heaven just like Christ.

Nothing in Paul's writings shows that Jesus rose in flesh and blood, only evidence to the contray can be found.

 

[AHIMSA]

Not a relevant topic of discussion then?

 

[cyberjosh]

Nothing in Paul's writings shows that Jesus rose in flesh and blood, only evidence to the contray can be found.

I'm not understanding. What's the punch line? You yourself admitted that Jesus is now in a spiritual body. What do you suppose Jesus did when he ascended kept his physical flesh, or did he shed it?

And which part of Pauls views contradicts the idea of Jesus having a spiritual body. And take note that Paul is really the only one that speaks extensively on having a spiritual body, thats how we know we will have one in heaven.

 

[AHIMSA]

My point that Jesus' spiritual body means that his fleshly body did not rise; his spirit is what is resurrected.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Jesus rose PHYSICALLY with a glorified body, but He still had the wounds that were visible as mentioned John 20:27.

 

[Rick W]

My point that Jesus' spiritual body means that his fleshly body did not rise; his spirit is what is resurrected.

Ok, so what happened to His body? The high priests requested a guard be posted at the tomb and was told to do so. After all the hubbub about Him rising again I hardly think His dissenters left the tomb unwatched.

 

[AHIMSA]

You are using post-Pauline documents to support something that Paul didn't say. My point is, Paul did not speak of a resurrection of the flesh nor an acension of the flesh, but a transformation of the physical into the spiritual in an instantaneous cosmic resurrection/ ascension into the spiritual realm.