Paul has clearly explained man’s spiritual condition

[John Zain]

The apostle Paul was personally trained by God in spiritual matters for 17 years
(see Galatians 1:11-12,18; 2:1) … before he even really began his ministry to the Gentiles.
And he explained man’s situation as follows:

God has revealed Himself to man
God has revealed Himself in nature … Romans 1:19-20.
God has revealed Himself in man’s conscience … Romans 1:32, 2:15.
Man suppresses the truth about God … Romans 1:18, 1:28.
Man refuses to thank Him and glorify Him … Romans 1:21.
Man is without excuse … Romans 1:20.
This resulted in the wrath of God … Romans 1:18, 2:5.
God gave man over to uncleanliness and a debased mind … Romans 1:24-32.
Man has condemned himself and is deserving of death … Romans 1:32, 2:1.

Why did God create man in this condition?
He didn’t … originally, man was in perfect condition (except for his free will).
(The angels were also created with free will, and 1/3 of them rebelled against God.)
Because of his flagrant disobedience in the Garden of Eden, man was given a sin nature.
Subsequently, all men inherited this disastrous sin nature … many references are available.

Man is totally unnable to choose spiritual life
He is spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:37-40.
He is spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, 4:18; Colossians 2:13.
He is at enmity with God (an enemy of God) … Romans 8:7, Ephesians 2:15-16.
He sees the gospel of Jesus Christ as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18.
But, it is just this gospel that is the power of God,
which is able to provide salvation to all who believe … Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18.
However, the problem is … man is just simply unnable to believe it (as we have seen above).

More on how God views the situation
Man chose to ignore God … thinking themselves wise, they became fools … Romans 1:22.
They knew the disastrous results of their actions: God’s righteous judgment … Romans 1:32.
Fools indeed … and by their own choice.
God purposed to destroy the “wisdom” of those who think they are wise … 1 Corinthians 1:19-20.
It pleased God that:
-- the preaching of the foolish gospel would save those who believe … 1 Corinthians 1:21.
-- He would choose and call the least of men to believe the gospel … 1 Corinthians 1:26-28.
-- this would glorify Himself only, and certainly not any man … 1 Corinthians 1:29.

Yes, God chose who would believe
This has to be the case, since man is totally unnable to choose for himself!
God has to miraculously enable man to believe His foolish gospel.
God’s gift of grace-faith-belief (not man’s works) produces his salvation … Ephesians 2:8-9.
But, did God choose all men to be saved?
NO! … read carefully whom God chose: it was the least, etc. of men … 1 Corinthians 1:26-28.
This ties in with: “many who are first will be last, and the last will be first” … Matthew 19:30.

God’s choosing is called “election”
The people God elected were chosen according to His foreknowledge … 1 Peter 1:1-2.
He predestined them and chose them before the foundation of the world … Ephesians 1:4-5.
He predestined them according to His purpose and according to His will … Ephesians 1:11.
The election of grace had nothing to do with any of the OT-type of works … Romans 11:5-6.
His choice was by mercy and compassion, not by what anyone had done … Romans 9:15-16.
He had mercy on whom He wished, and He hardened whom He wished … Romans 9:18.
He prepared vessels of mercy beforehand, and called them, for His glory … Romans 9:23.
Those whom had been appointed to eternal life believe in the gospel … Acts 13:48.
Research has shown that our English NT word “believe” really means: believe, trust, follow, obey.
Those who make it through to the end are the called, chosen, and faithful … Revelation 17:14.

 

[Grazer]

God chose who would believe......

So what then? I just got lucky? Everyone else is damned to hell because God chooses them to be? Am I supposed to take comfort in that?

God wants no one to perish:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance
(2 Peter 3:9)

In John:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him (John 3:16-17)

Whoever believes; doesn't say "gave his Son to save who has already decided to and those were the only ones he loved" We have a choice. God gave us that choice through the death and resurrection of Jesus. He made the first move. Everyone has the same choice I did. Not everyone will make the same choice I did, doesn't mean that choice is not there. I can't and don't boast because I know I deserve punishment but through Christ, that punishment is taken, I accepted the gift on offer. That gift is on offer to everyone without exception!!! Without this choice, the gospel we preach is really no gospel at all because it doesn't matter since God has already decided (knowing and deciding are 2 different things)

 

[Deborah13]

What a wonderful and well written treatise on the condition of man and his trajectory through life! I praise God that I have not been given over to a reprobate mind. That I am able to see my own foolishness (through Him) and go daily to the scriptures and the feet of Jesus to ask for my daily guidance. I am nothing and God is everything. Praise the Lord!

I cannot believe this OP statement, I believe in (saved by grace through faith as in Eph. 2:8-9), and that we have free will to believe or not believe, that we can reject the grace and faith that God supplied.
I cannot believe that God did not create us with free will. I cannot believe He does not offer His grace to each person. I cannot believe that He deliberatly created some men for destruction (maybe my son or your's) created them a bad vessel that could never accept Him because created them that way.

[QUOTE/] John Zain : But, did God choose all men to be saved?
NO! … read carefully whom God chose: it was the least, etc. of men

He would choose and call the least of men to believe the gospel

He prepared vessels of mercy beforehand, and called them, for His glory [/Quote]



God says that it is HIS WILL that all men should be saved. My God is not a liar and He would surely be one if He could make this statement with a straight face knowing that He had deliberately created some men to be evil.

 

[John Zain]

I praise God that I have not been given over to a reprobate mind.
That I am able to see my own foolishness (through Him) and go daily
to the scriptures and the feet of Jesus to ask for my daily guidance.
I am nothing and God is everything. Praise the Lord!

Yes, and the most wonderful thing is ...
If you choose to remain seriously obedient as you are now,
He promises to make sure that you will be an overcomer and see heaven.
Indeed, Praise the Lord!

 

[John Zain]

God chose who would believe......So what then? I just got lucky?
Everyone else is damned to hell because God chooses them to be?

Yes, but I encourage you to look on the bright side of it all ...
With all of those verses torn out of your Bible, it will be so much lighter for lugging to church.
Praise the Lord!

 

[Grazer]

Yes, but I encourage you to look on the bright side of it all ...
With all of those verses torn out of your Bible, it will be so much lighter for lugging to church.
Praise the Lord!

What about the verses I quoted? Have they been torn out of yours?

I take no comfort in what you've put. The bright side is "well I'm saved so its all good" - what a selfish attitude!!

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.​

This reminder is not directed at any one member...Not necessarily the first poster nor the last​

 

[Deborah13]

What about the verses I quoted? Have they been torn out of yours?

I take no comfort in what you've put. The bright side is "well I'm saved so its all good" - what a selfish attitude!!

And when my grandson was five and told me (with tears in his eyes) that he didn't want anyone to go to the "bad heaven" (he'd seen it in a dream and not knowing anything about hell, he didn't know what to call it) because....
I would have had to explain to him that it was sad but that God in His wisdom created some people to be evil and so they went to hell for the evil they did.

YIKE! I don't think he would have continued to believe that God is love and that He loves all people.
There are some scriptures that seem to say He made some vessels bad but there are too many others that say the opposite so there is a lack of understanding in me, God is not a liar.

 

[JCitoL]

.....(The angels were also created with free will, and 1/3 of them rebelled against God.).....

the truth is that there has never been even one fallen angel of them whom God has at the beginning made in the Heaven during the six days of (the) creation, but all stories about such fallen angels are false, however the sinful "angels" in the Scripture actually are unrighteous spiritual servants/workers from the humans, while the "third part of the stars of heaven" in Revelation 12:4 are 33.3% of the inanimate spirits which are (the) different aspects of the benediction/grace of the Heaven

Blessings

 

[John Zain]

God in His wisdom created some people to be evil
and so they went to hell for the evil they did.
... there is a lack of understanding in me ...

God is not responsible for our spiritual condition ... our forefathers are!
Technically, your parents created you.
But, you're correct, the Lord could have stopped them from doing this.
But, then, you'd have no chance of being with Him in Heaven for all of eternity.

IMO, Scriptural Truths "somewhat hidden" in Scripture
-- Every human is born with an inherited sin nature (from Adam & Eve)
-- The one true God has revealed Himself as being a Triune God
-- God’s gift of grace-faith enabled you to believe in Jesus and His gospel
-- Limited atonement: Jesus came only for whom He elected
-- Sanctification is a process and it is a part of salvation
-- Cessationism (God’s signs, wonders, miracles have ceased) is false
-- The Holy Spirit baptism is not the same at all as being born-again

"The secret things belong to Jehovah our God;
but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever,
that we may do all the words of this law." - Deut. 29:29 (TOB)

I was really blessed last week when someone gave me this verse!

 

[Grazer]

If God has already chosen who will and won't believe, who will and won't be saved, of course he's responsible. You can't have it both ways

 

[John Zain]

If God has already chosen who will and won't believe, who will and won't be saved,
of course he's responsible. You can't have it both ways

Okay, He's responsible for condemning the whole entire human race
because of who/what they are.

But, in His unfathonable grace, He agreed to save some!

This is the whole Bible in a nutshell.

Sorry, that you don't like the naked Truth.

 

[Grazer]

Okay, He's responsible for condemning the whole entire human race
because of who/what they are.

But, in His unfathonable grace, He agreed to save some!

This is the whole Bible in a nutshell.

Sorry, that you don't like the naked Truth.

No its not the Bible, its your interpretation of it and I one there are no words strong enough to describe how much I disagree with it.

 

[Sinthesis]

He agreed to save all, yet not all agree to be saved. Anything less wouldn't be unfathomable grace. Anything more would be rape.

 

[John Zain]

No its not the Bible, its your interpretation of it ...

I could give you tons of Scriptures, but you'd give me a couple of others to refute them.

 

[Deborah13]

If I were to believe this doctrine I never would have taken the chance of having children. It's worse than a genetic disorder where your children have a 50% chance of having the same physical disease. I wouldn't be able to hold a baby in my arms thinking that he/she may be bound for hell because the Holy Spirit may never draw them to Christ. Why have children, be as Paul says, stay single, less grief.

 

[Grazer]

[/COLOR][/B]
I could give you tons of Scriptures, but you'd give me a couple of others to refute them.

Perhaps that should tell you something....

 

[John Zain]

Perhaps that should tell you something....

There are several major doctrines which supposedly have Scriptures refuting them!
E.G. the Triune Godhead.

 

[4Jesus]

Man is totally unnable to choose spiritual life
Yes, God chose who would believe
This has to be the case, since man is totally unnable to choose for himself!
God has to miraculously enable man to believe His foolish gospel.

You have many good insights and understanding but I believe you are incorrect about God choosing who would believe. If you were correct it would mean God determined who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell for all of us before we were even born. That seems to conflict with the fact that God is just and "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1Tim 2:4)

The Bible teaches predestination but I think God predestines those he knows will accept him.

I think we can both agree on the following points:
We can't believe without God first revealing himself to us (John 6:44)
Our faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8)
God's grace is what enables to believe. We wouldn't believe in God without it.

Although I think we have a choice to accept or reject Jesus, everything ultimately comes from God so we ought to thank God for his grace and our faith that we wouldn't have if it weren't for the grace of God.

Our ability to remain in the faith by continuing to cooperate with God's grace is also a gift from God. So even though we must cooperate a little we cannot boast because everything we have comes from God.

 

[John Zain]

I believe you are incorrect about God choosing who would believe.
If you were correct it would mean God determined who will go to Heaven
and who will go to Hell for all of us before we were even born.
That seems to conflict with the fact that God is just and
"wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1Tim 2:4)
The Bible teaches predestination but I think God predestines those he knows will accept him.
I think we can both agree on the following points:
We can't believe without God first revealing himself to us (John 6:44)
Our faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8)
God's grace is what enables to believe. We wouldn't believe in God without it.
Although I think we have a choice to accept or reject Jesus, everything ultimately comes from God so we ought to thank God for his grace and our faith that we wouldn't have if it weren't for the grace of God.
Our ability to remain in the faith by continuing to cooperate with God's grace is also a gift from God. So even though we must cooperate a little we cannot boast because everything we have comes from God.

IMO, we have just a few interesting differences.

I must have not been clear, because I especially do believe in your blue!
(To us, it really is the only thing that seems reasonable,
even though Romans 9 and other verses clearly say that God just chooses
whom He feels like choosing, and it has nothing to do with our "works".)

Re: your red ... nothing is about believing in "God" ...
probably you meant "believe in Jesus and His foolish gospel".

In God's view ... He would be just, if He accepted no one into heaven!
Seriously! ... Are you missing this critical revelation?

Scholars believe "all men" to mean "some humans from ALL ethnic groups in the world".
IMO, some other Scriptures reveal that NOT all humans are chosen for salvation.

Re: your green ... IMO, no! Who refuses to accept the original drawing, calling, etc.?
Man is more free later to choose to reject his calling because of ...
counting the cost to finish the job, e.g. the long difficult process of sanctification!