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Bible Study Paul's call to God- From Acts chapter 9

C

ChristineES

Guest
I thought I would put Saul (who was called Paul) story of how Jesus came to him, blinded him and called him to preach His Word. It is from Acts Chapter 9 verses 1-20. The Story of Paul continues after that, and if you want to read it just pick up your bible and start reading. The translation is AKJV. (American King James Version)

1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why persecute you me?
5 And he said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you persecute: it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what will you have me to do? And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told you what you must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays,
12 And has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on your name.
15 But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight immediately, and arose, and was baptized.
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
 
Interesting isn't it that Paul received his revelation from God and yet he did not preach that Jesus was God. He preached that Jesus was the son of God. And neither did he preach the Trinity for that matter.

I wonder why? Well not really - I know why.
 
Paul wrote to the Colossians that Jesus is the image of the invisable God, and this is how God has revealed himself to us in the new covenant. Notice that Paul describes Jesus as creator, and that all things were created by him and for him. Notice that Jesus is before all things, and by him all things consist. It pleased God that He would be in his fullness as man; therefore, Jesus is fully God and fully man. Through this wonderous move, God redeemed those who believe through himself.

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:14-20


Paul also wrote in his letter to the Colossians that Jesus was the fullness of God bodily, depicting his understanding of the deity of Jesus Christ.

9 FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:9-15

Paul wrote to the Philippians that Jesus was equal to God. God exalted him and gave him a name above every name. There is no name higher than the name given to Jesus Christ. Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord God.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11


I would say that Paul had a very good grasp on knowing Jesus is God almighty.
 
I put this same story on another board, and someone there opened my mind to more understaning of this story.
It has to do with forgiveness. Paul persecuted early followers Christ, as a Pharisee, he thought he was doing the right thing. Despite all that Christ chose him and forgave him of his sin. If he would forgive Paul, then He would also forgive each of us for our sins!
 
My response to Solo is for the benefit of others who may read this. I have already explained many things to Solo regarding the meaning of scriptures that he uses to justify his interpretation. After giving him analogies and explanations he still cannot see, so I am not pursuing these issues any longer with him. But, I will respond to this post so that others may see.
Solo said:
Paul wrote to the Colossians that Jesus is the image of the invisable God, and this is how God has revealed himself to us in the new covenant. Notice that Paul describes Jesus as creator, and that all things were created by him and for him.
OK since I am made in the image of God, does that make me God? No.
And in the same manner since Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Does that make him God? No.
Scripture tells us that Jesus is the word of God. He is the mouthpiece of God (or conduit if you like) through whom all things were created. Being the word, does not make Jesus God. As the words that come from my mouth reflect me, so the words that come from God reflect who God is. My words reflect me. Therefore they are me. And so it is with the Word of God. That is why scripture says the word was with God and was God. I have been through all of this before in another thread on this forum.
Solo said:
Notice that Jesus is before all things, and by him all things consist. It pleased God that He would be in his fullness as man;
Here we go again – twisting the words. Look at the text. It does not say ‘fulness as a man’. It says ‘in him should all fullness dwell’ – meaning God has given the fullness of his authority to Jesus since he is His son.
Solo said:
therefore, Jesus is fully God and fully man.
As shown above, the text is misquoted, therefore this conclusion cannot follow.
Solo said:
Through this wonderous move, God redeemed those who believe through himself.

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:14-20


Paul also wrote in his letter to the Colossians that Jesus was the fullness of God bodily, depicting his understanding of the deity of Jesus Christ.
Being the fullness of God does not make the one who is that ‘fullness’, God. I am the spitting image of my father. Now if my father makes me head of all his affairs, I speak for him – I am his mouthpiece. I am his word. I do what he wants me to do and say what he wants me to say. But I am not my father.
Solo said:
9 FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:9-15

Paul wrote to the Philippians that Jesus was equal to God. God exalted him and gave him a name above every name.
Goodness gracious. Another misquote. It does not say ‘equal to God’. It says ‘equal with God’. There is a difference. And remember it is God who exalted Jesus to that position. He didn’t exalt Himself. Again, the whole approach to this understanding has been reduced to something like a mathematical equation.
Solo said:
There is no name higher than the name given to Jesus Christ. Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord God.
And yet again. Another direct misquote. It does not say ‘Jesus is Lord God’ It says ‘Jesus is Lord’ But of course you wouldn’t want to say the rest of the verse would you, because that just blows the whole thing by saying to the glory of God the Father. God is the Father. The Father is God. You know Solo has made such a big deal out of this issue saying that I had to accept this in order to be born again. Now don’t you think that if this was such an important issue upon which a persons salvation hinged scripture would spell it out. So why doesn’t it say ‘Jesus is the Father’ or ‘the Father is Jesus’ or ‘Jesus is God’ or perhaps it should have been written “Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord God†or “God the Sonâ€Â. But no it doesn’t, so I say never mind - those who want to believe it can. As for me I cannot.
Solo said:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11

I would say that Paul had a very good grasp on knowing Jesus is God almighty.
Nothing that Paul writes comes anywhere near saying that, but carry on believing what you believe.
 
Jehovah Witnesses and other cults do not believe that Jesus is God, but the Bible is clear that He definitely is. Those that think they know God, but deny that Jesus is come in the flesh are woefully mistaken.

The following article retrieved from http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm


....................................Jesus Christ is God Incarnate

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
............................................................................--MATTHEW 1:23

..............................................................."...if ye believe not that I am he,
......................................................................ye shall die in your sins."

....................................................................--JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24


God never changes.
  • Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
  • Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God is the only Saviour.
  • "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

    To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12

    God our Saviour. Titus 2:10

    ...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10

    God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
Jesus is the only Saviour.
  • ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

    ...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

    ...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

    ...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

    ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

    a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

    Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
    --Acts 4:12

    ...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
    --2 Timothy 2:10

    ...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
    -- Heb 2:10

    [Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
    -- Heb 5:9
God created the universe and earth by Himself.
  • I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
  • Unto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10

    By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16

    All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
God is the Word.
  • In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
Jesus is the Word.
  • ...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
God is the first and the last.
  • I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.
  • Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
God forgives sins.
  • [T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3

    "[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
  • Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
God is our redeemer.
  • [T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.

  • [T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14
God is one.
  • Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus and God are one.
  • I and my Father are one. John 10:30

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

    Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
God has a Son.
  • [T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7
Jesus is God's Son.
  • ... [Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18
God is the Holy One
  • Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

    Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

    Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

    Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

    Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)
Jesus is the Holy One.
  • Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

    13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Only God is worshipped.
  • ... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
Jesus is worshipped.
  • While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18

    And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6

    And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
God is Messiah.
  • ...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is Messiah.
  • The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
God is from everlasting.
  • The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2
Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting.
  • But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2
Only God is glorified.
  • I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8
God glorified Jesus.
  • And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

    [A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

    But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
God is 'I am'.
  • And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus is 'I am'.
  • Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
God heals all diseases.
  • Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2
Jesus heals all diseases.
  • [Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16
God is the Judge of the whole earth.
  • O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2

    [Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.
  • [T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22
God has life in Himself.
  • [T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
Jesus has life in Himself.
  • so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;

    In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
God raises the dead.
  • [T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.
  • [T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21

..........................................................................Conclusion...
............................................................Jesus Christ is God

The scriptures bear abundant testimony that Jesus Christ is God. Some liberal preacher will say to me, "You take the Bible literally. It's just myths." I answer, "Yes, I believe the Bible 100%. It is the word of God. If you don't believe it, Jesus is of no effect to you, ye are yet in your sins."

..............................................................Additional Verses:


"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."

--1 Timothy 3:16


"But unto the SON he saith, 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom'...And, 'Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.'"

-- Hebrews 1:8, 10



"I and my Father are ONE."


--Jesus Christ, John 10:30



"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."


--Philippians 2:5-8



"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."


--1 John 5:7



"... feed the church of GOD, which he hath purchased with his OWN BLOOD."


--Acts 20:28



"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...


--1 John 3:16



"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, receive my spirit."


--Acts 7:59



"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."


--Isaiah 9:6



"And Thomas answered and said unto him [JESUS], My Lord and MY GOD."


--John 20:28



"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."


--John 1:1-4, 14



"Philip saith unto him, 'Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.' Jesus saith unto him, 'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?''"


-- John 14:8-9



"...CHRIST, who is the IMAGE OF GOD..."


--II Corinthians 4:4



"...glory of GOD in the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST."


--II Corinthians 4:6



"GOD...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SON...who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON..."


--Hebrews 1:1-3



Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

*firstborn: pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term 'firstborn' is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called 'firstborn' although he was actually the youngest son.




"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."


-- Colossians 2:9



"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."


--Matthew 1:23



"The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, PREPARE ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD."


-- Isaiah 40:3



THESE PEOPLE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS WAS GOD AND THOUGHT HE BLASPHEMED WHEN HE TOLD THE TRUTH.
"The Jews answered [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."


-- John 10:33


Addenda from justbible.com--

Some cults teach that Jesus was God's first Creation, and that Christ then Created the universe we know. This is a verse cults use to support their false doctrine.

("Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;")

This verse also.

("John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. ")

They say, "See, he was in the beginning with God."

They will even use this verse.

("Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.")

_________

Now for the Truth, from God's word, let's compare Scripture with Scripture.

If you only read this verse, you might think it was talking about Jesus, and that he was set up.

But if you read the chapter, you will realize who or what it is talking about.

("Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.")

Wisdom, not Christ. The whole chapter is about wisdom personified. To make it even more clear that it is not Christ, wisdom is spoken of as female.

("Proverbs 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places,...")

Let's see what the Bible says about Christ.

("Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:") ("John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.")

He created everything that was created, and nothing was created by anyone but him. If Christ made all things then he must have existed before everything that was created. ("Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.") He is the one and only Creator. If he created all things then did he create himself? No, he can't be a created being. He existed before the beginning. He is from Everlasting. ("Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.") Jehovah God said: ("Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.") Jesus Christ said: ("Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.") ("Revelation 1:18 Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.")

Hosanna in the Highest! Jesus is Jehovah!

Paul Payton http://www.JustBible.com/



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The following excerpt taken from Jesus Christ our Creator: A Biblical Defence of the Trinity by Jonathan Sarfati at http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4222.asp

Some Objections to the Trinity Answered

Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some cults have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.
  • Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.

    The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister  he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.
    [/*:m:99fa1]
  • Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

    ‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.
    [/*:m:99fa1]
  • Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
    [/*:m:99fa1]
  • Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

    This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.[/*:m:99fa1]

....................................BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
 
Yawn . . . seen it all before Solo. Is that supposed to convince me? Because all it is a regurgitated approach to something that has perplexed the academics of this world for yonks. It cannot be understood except by revelation of God.

Now, I don't belong to a cult - but I do belong to God. I am a child of God, born of the Spirit and a co-heir with Christ. And I don't care how many theologians, doctors of divinity, priests, ministers, pharisees, pastors, bishops, cardinals, deacons, elders, and any other religious leaders - have I missed anyone? - oh yeah, forum moderators. They can all accuse me of heresy and tell me I cannot know God unless I recant and believe as they do.

But I tell you I will not - no, cannot lie to myself or the Spirit of God that dwells within me.

Sorry Solo - you are going to have to put up with a born-again heretic.
 
ChristineES said:
I put this same story on another board, and someone there opened my mind to more understaning of this story.
It has to do with forgiveness. Paul persecuted early followers Christ, as a Pharisee, he thought he was doing the right thing. Despite all that Christ chose him and forgave him of his sin. If he would forgive Paul, then He would also forgive each of us for our sins!


So says Paul....

If Paul was a Pharisee....how is it that he was a policeman/henchman for the Sadducean High Priest? Contrary to popular belief, Pharisee's tolerated Jesus (didn't even reject him as the possible Messiah). Contrary to popular "uninformed" belief, Pharisee's tolerated the new formed Nazarene sect of Judaism...

The only group that had a beef with Jesus or the Apostles were the Sadducean's who persecuted them for political purposes....Jesus was a threat to the Sadducean priesthood as was James....

Stephen was killed for the same political motive that Jesus was...Sadducean High Priest had Jesus killed, and he also had Stephen killed by the same group (henchmen that eventually included Paul).

Paul could not have been a Pharisee (although who to whom he was writing to could contest that) because of his Sadducean connection....Pharisee's and Sadducee's did not mix....
 
Solo said:
Paul wrote to the Colossians that Jesus is the image of the invisable God, and this is how God has revealed himself to us in the new covenant. Notice that Paul describes Jesus as creator, and that all things were created by him and for him. Notice that Jesus is before all things, and by him all things consist. It pleased God that He would be in his fullness as man; therefore, Jesus is fully God and fully man. Through this wonderous move, God redeemed those who believe through himself.

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:14-20


Paul also wrote in his letter to the Colossians that Jesus was the fullness of God bodily, depicting his understanding of the deity of Jesus Christ.

9 FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:9-15

Paul wrote to the Philippians that Jesus was equal to God. God exalted him and gave him a name above every name. There is no name higher than the name given to Jesus Christ. Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord God.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11


I would say that Paul had a very good grasp on knowing Jesus is God almighty.

Jesus as the Memra (God's created and creative word) of the OT as described in John 1:1 was responsible for the creation. The Memra was also the representative of God and according to the Jewish Law of Agency (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com), and was seen as God (without being God the Father himself). Jesus is that very same thing...as the Agent of God, according to the Jewish Law of Agency, he is seen as God without being God.
 
ChristineES said:
I put this same story on another board, and someone there opened my mind to more understaning of this story.
It has to do with forgiveness. Paul persecuted early followers Christ, as a Pharisee, he thought he was doing the right thing. Despite all that Christ chose him and forgave him of his sin. If he would forgive Paul, then He would also forgive each of us for our sins!

Christine,

I understand what you are trying to get at....but which Damascus road story are we supposed to believe?

Acts 9,22,26 and Gal 1 all tell different versions with different facts.....(ie. in one version, people don't see the light, but hear something. In the other, they see something but don't hear anything. In another, Paul doesn't go to Jerusalem right away, in another he goes to Jerusalem asap). Will the real Paul please stand up?.....the more I study him, the more incredulous I become that he hasn't been caught in his theology by more people.....does anyone else not see this....
 
Georges said:
ChristineES said:
I put this same story on another board, and someone there opened my mind to more understaning of this story.
It has to do with forgiveness. Paul persecuted early followers Christ, as a Pharisee, he thought he was doing the right thing. Despite all that Christ chose him and forgave him of his sin. If he would forgive Paul, then He would also forgive each of us for our sins!

Christine,

I understand what you are trying to get at....but which Damascus road story are we supposed to believe?

Acts 9,22,26 and Gal 1 all tell different versions with different facts.....(ie. in one version, people don't see the light, but hear something. In the other, they see something but don't hear anything. In another, Paul doesn't go to Jerusalem right away, in another he goes to Jerusalem asap). Will the real Paul please stand up?.....the more I study him, the more incredulous I become that he hasn't been caught in his theology by more people.....does anyone else not see this....

Even in the news today, 2 people will say something different. It does not mean one is correct and one is wrong, it has to do with point of view. Maybe one of the writers did not think that the gap was worth mentioning.(Luke wrote Acts and Paul wrote Galatians) They are essentially the same, however or at least the point of the story is the same.
 
ChristineES said:
Georges said:
ChristineES said:
I put this same story on another board, and someone there opened my mind to more understaning of this story.
It has to do with forgiveness. Paul persecuted early followers Christ, as a Pharisee, he thought he was doing the right thing. Despite all that Christ chose him and forgave him of his sin. If he would forgive Paul, then He would also forgive each of us for our sins!

Christine,

I understand what you are trying to get at....but which Damascus road story are we supposed to believe?

Acts 9,22,26 and Gal 1 all tell different versions with different facts.....(ie. in one version, people don't see the light, but hear something. In the other, they see something but don't hear anything. In another, Paul doesn't go to Jerusalem right away, in another he goes to Jerusalem asap). Will the real Paul please stand up?.....the more I study him, the more incredulous I become that he hasn't been caught in his theology by more people.....does anyone else not see this....

Even in the news today, 2 people will say something different. It does not mean one is correct and one is wrong, it has to do with point of view. Maybe one of the writers did not think that the gap was worth mentioning.(Luke wrote Acts and Paul wrote Galatians) They are essentially the same, however or at least the point of the story is the same.

Wish I had your outlook on it.....things would be so much easier for me....I need everything to fit...Paul's accounts do not...I think that "close enough" ain't "good enough"....and these aren't really close....what else has he fudged a little on? :)
 
mutzrein said:
Yawn . . . seen it all before Solo. Is that supposed to convince me? Because all it is a regurgitated approach to something that has perplexed the academics of this world for yonks. It cannot be understood except by revelation of God.

Now, I don't belong to a cult - but I do belong to God. I am a child of God, born of the Spirit and a co-heir with Christ. And I don't care how many theologians, doctors of divinity, priests, ministers, pharisees, pastors, bishops, cardinals, deacons, elders, and any other religious leaders - have I missed anyone? - oh yeah, forum moderators. They can all accuse me of heresy and tell me I cannot know God unless I recant and believe as they do.

But I tell you I will not - no, cannot lie to myself or the Spirit of God that dwells within me.

Sorry Solo - you are going to have to put up with a born-again heretic.
The scriptures are the truth of God, whether you would like to believe them or not. It is your choice. Jesus is God whether your spirit agrees or not.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3


By the way, it isn't for me to convince you, it is your responsibility to repent and seek the Lord and his truth, and reject all heresies.
 
Solo said:
mutzrein said:
Yawn . . . seen it all before Solo. Is that supposed to convince me? Because all it is a regurgitated approach to something that has perplexed the academics of this world for yonks. It cannot be understood except by revelation of God.

Now, I don't belong to a cult - but I do belong to God. I am a child of God, born of the Spirit and a co-heir with Christ. And I don't care how many theologians, doctors of divinity, priests, ministers, pharisees, pastors, bishops, cardinals, deacons, elders, and any other religious leaders - have I missed anyone? - oh yeah, forum moderators. They can all accuse me of heresy and tell me I cannot know God unless I recant and believe as they do.

But I tell you I will not - no, cannot lie to myself or the Spirit of God that dwells within me.

Sorry Solo - you are going to have to put up with a born-again heretic.
The scriptures are the truth of God, whether you would like to believe them or not. It is your choice. Jesus is God whether your spirit agrees or not.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3


By the way, it isn't for me to convince you, it is your responsibility to repent and seek the Lord and his truth, and reject all heresies.

Oh really? If that is the case why did you have to misquote scripture in an effort to get a point across? Are you trying to help the Holy Spirit? Whatever a person's point of view, such an approach does their cause more harm than good so don't lecture me.
 
Georges said:
Jesus as the Memra (God's created and creative word) of the OT as described in John 1:1 was responsible for the creation. The Memra was also the representative of God and according to the Jewish Law of Agency (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com), and was seen as God (without being God the Father himself). Jesus is that very same thing...as the Agent of God, according to the Jewish Law of Agency, he is seen as God without being God.

That is interesting. Thankyou George. I had no knowledge of that.
 
Georges said:
I understand what you are trying to get at....but which Damascus road story are we supposed to believe?

Acts 9,22,26 and Gal 1 all tell different versions with different facts.....(ie. in one version, people don't see the light, but hear something. In the other, they see something but don't hear anything. In another, Paul doesn't go to Jerusalem right away, in another he goes to Jerusalem asap). Will the real Paul please stand up?.....the more I study him, the more incredulous I become that he hasn't been caught in his theology by more people.....does anyone else not see this....

Haven't looked at the Jerusalem thing but in the past I did wonder about the "hearing-not hearing" verses. There's hearing without understanding what was heard, there's hearing without doing what one heard and there's hearing but not knowing what it was.

Seeing without seeing and hearing without hearing is all through the bible. Just a scant bit of examples:

Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Eze 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Mar 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

That doesn't mean God made them all like Helen Keller.


Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

And of course there are those phrases referring to "seeing". In any event those with Paul had no clue what was going on but they did know for sure that something had happened that they didn't understand. Is it possible Christ spoke to Paul in "tongues" giving him the spirit to understand? I do know when someone speaks in tongues I don't understand but someone else does yet my ears do work.

I'll look into the verses concerning Jerusalem when I get a chance.
 
................................................The Bible Church
...........................................................Study Page
............................................................The Memra

All scripture is from the King James Version unless otherwise noted. Before beginning this study, I suggest you pray and ask God to guide you through this study. I also suggest that you do you own study of this material in order to ensure its accuracy.


The word, memra,
memra.gif
, is Strongs 565, 'imrah, or 'emrah (em'-raw), or memra (mem'-raw). It means commandment, speech, or word. (some editions of Strong's leave out the Aramaic spelling, memra). It is the equivalent of logos, λογος , Strong's 3056, in the Greek.

It is clear from the Scriptures that no human can see God face to face and survive. Here are some examples:

Genesis 32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Judges 6:22-23 "And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. {23} And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die."


(Alas is an expression usually uttered at death or impending death)

Isaiah 6:5 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

But there are many places in the Bible where men did see the LORD and live. For example, Jacob wrestled with God and did not die. The LORD appeared to Abraham at the trees of Mamre. There He made a covenant with Abraham. It was also there that Abraham pleaded with the LORD for Lot who resided in Sodom. Abraham did not die.

Appearances of God to men are called Theophanies. There are many Theophanies in the Bible. The Lord appeared face to face to Adam, Eve, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Gideon, Manoah and his wife, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and others. Sometimes it is an appearance of the LORD Almighty on His throne in glorified form (such as in Isaiah and Ezekiel) and other times He appears as the Angel of the LORD and yet other times He appears as a man. But He did appear to many men and women in the Bible.

Theophanies were a problem for the Israelis (which are Jews in this context--the return from captivity). They did not want to make God to seem human. The Sopherim were the scribes who set the text of the Hebrew Bible in order after the return from Babylonian captivity. Because of their exceptional reverence for the inexpressible Name of Yehovah they substituted the name Adonai (LORD) in the place of Yehovah. (That is why the King James Version uses the word LORD in the place of most uses of the name Yehovah (more commonly, Jehovah). That is also why many Jews will write the words LORD and God thus: L__D and G_d.) This same reverence for the NAME of God can be seen as reverence of His PERSON as well.

Since the Jews did not like Theophanies, they also substituted a word for God when He appeared to men. In the Targums, which are the Aramic versions of the Old Testament, the word memra is used in every instance of an appearance of God to men or God speaking to a man. This use of the memra rationalized every appearance of God to man.

Now memra is the Aramaic for "word", which, in the Greek, is Logos. You will find it in Strong's Concordance. It is Strong's number 565: 'imrah im-raw' or memrah {em-raw'}; feminine of 561, and meaning the sameâ€â€commandment, speech, word. (Note: some editions of Strong's do not use the word, memrah for the Aramaic equivalent; instead they use emrah, leaving off the first "m").

In those cases mentioned above, the memra, or Word, shared the nature of God and at the same time was a messenger from God. Hence the phrase, the Angel of the LORD, because an angel is a messenger of God. The Angel of the LORD is a theophany or a manifestation of God to man, that is, God coming face to face with man. A good example is the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

The Targums read more or less: "And they heard the Word or memra of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Word or memra of God amongst the trees of the garden."

The concept of the memra is derived from Psalm 33:6: "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." The personified Word is also mentioned in some other places:

Psalm 147:15 "He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly."

Isaiah 55:10-11 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: {11} So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."


In the passage from the Psalms, the Word is shown as running like a man. And in Isaiah the Word goes out and accomplishes the will of God.

According to the Jews for Jesus site, the Targums are filled with the Word of God, but the Talmud is silent on the issue. That is because the Talmud was written after the advent of Christ and the rabbis suppressed it in reaction to Christianity.

Let me quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia:
  • "In the ancient Church liturgy, adopted from the Synagogue, it is especially interesting to notice how often the term Logos, (this is the Greek word for the memra) in the sense of 'the Word by which God made the world, or made His Law or Himself known to man,' was changed into 'Christ.' Possibly on account of the Christian dogma, rabbinic theology, outside of the Targum literature, made little use of the term 'Memra.'"
    The Jewish Encyclopedia, New York and London, 1904, p. 465.

    And from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    " In Palestinian Rabbinism the Word (Memra) is very often mentioned, at least in the Targums: it is the Memra of Jahveh which lives, speaks, and acts, but, if one endeavour to determine precisely the meaning of the expression, it appears very often to be only a paraphrase substituted by the Targumist for the name of Jahveh. The Memra resembles the Logos of Philo as little as the workings of the rabbinical mind in Palestine resembled the speculations of Alexandria: the rabbis are chiefiy concerned about ritual and observances; from religious scruples they dare not attribute to Jahveh actions such as the Sacred Books attribute to Him; it is enough for them to veil the Divine Majesty under an abstract paraphrase, the Word, the Glory, the Abode, and others. Philo's problem was of the philosophic order; God and man are infinitely distant from each other, and it is necessary to establish between them relations of action and of prayer; the Logos is here the intermediary."

    The Catholic Encyclopedia
    Copyright © 1907-1914 by Robert Appleton Company
    Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight.

We can see that the Divine Logos was a concept fully accepted by the Jews at the time of Christ. When John wrote his Gospel, he was fully aware of the use of the word memra as an appearance of God to men. It was common usage during his day. When he penned these words, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:1 and 14), he was using the exact theme as the Sopherim did when they revised the text in the time of Ezra. In fact, if he wrote in Aramaic, he actually used the word, memra. By doing so he was portraying Christ as sharing the nature of God (that is being God) and also as a messenger from God (This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him-Mat 17:5).

Jewish theologians of John's era have ascribed six attributes to the memra. John assigned every attribute to Jesus in the first chapter of his gospel. The attributes are:
  1. The memra is individual and yet the same as God (John 1:1-"and the Word was with God, and the Word was God").
    [/*:m:358f9]
  2. The memra was the instrument of creation (John 1:3-"All things were made by Him" and John 1:10-"the world was made by him).
    [/*:m:358f9]
  3. The memra was the instrument of salvation (John 1:12-"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name").
    [/*:m:358f9]
  4. The memra was the visible presence of God or Theophany (John 1:14-"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us").
    [/*:m:358f9]
  5. The memra was the covenant maker (John 1:17-"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ").
    [/*:m:358f9]
  6. The memra was the revealer of God (John 1:18-"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him").[/*:m:358f9]

John 1:1-18 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} The same was in the beginning with God. {3} All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. {4} In him was life; and the life was the light of men. {5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. {6} There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. {7} The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. {8} He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. {9} That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. {10} He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. {11} He came unto his own, and his own received him not. {12} But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {13} Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {14} And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. {15} John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. {16} And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. {17} For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. {18} No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

These attributes are proof positive that John was following the Jewish model and he was showing that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

One other point. Philo of Alexandra (AKA Philo Judaeus) was a Jewish philosopher of the early first century. He is known as the Greatest Jewish Philosopher. He was also a Greek philosopher. Philo tried to explain the Theophanies as the Word of God to the Greeks. When he did so, he used the Aramaic word memra. Modern Jewish apologists will try to tell you that because Philo used the concept, the Divine Word of God was appropriated from the pagan religions of the Hellenistic world at the time. They want to belittle Christianity as a man made religion derived from paganism. When you hear this argument, it is a false argument. Just remind the person trying to tell you this that the Word of God was a Jewish concept and not a pagan concept. Tell him about this study.

Bibliography.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, Copyright © 1907-1914 by Robert Appleton Company
Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight.

Correspondence About The Trinity, by Karol Joseph, © 2001, Jews For Jesus, Inc.

The Jewish Encyclopedia, © 1904, New York and London

John, the Pharisees, and Memra, © 2000, Carl J. Stevens,

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, © 1990, Thomas Nelson Publishers

Retrieved from http://www.bibleword.org/memra.htm
 
mutzrein said:
Yawn . . . seen it all before Solo. Is that supposed to convince me? Because all it is a regurgitated approach to something that has perplexed the academics of this world for yonks. It cannot be understood except by revelation of God.

Now, I don't belong to a cult - but I do belong to God. I am a child of God, born of the Spirit and a co-heir with Christ. And I don't care how many theologians, doctors of divinity, priests, ministers, pharisees, pastors, bishops, cardinals, deacons, elders, and any other religious leaders - have I missed anyone? - oh yeah, forum moderators. They can all accuse me of heresy and tell me I cannot know God unless I recant and believe as they do.

But I tell you I will not - no, cannot lie to myself or the Spirit of God that dwells within me.

Sorry Solo - you are going to have to put up with a born-again heretic.

*******

John here: I thought that the post was very well done. Anyway, thanks for telling 'me' of your persuasion.
 
Hi, John here: Did your Thread get hijacked? :wink: Anyway, back from the Godhead to Christ God, and your Acts 9 chapter. I find that Saul gives us much information for study in this chapter. Acts 22:3 we see Saul is a Jew, born in Tarsus, and trained at the feet of Gamaliel & taught to the perfect law of the fathers, and was very zealous toward God.

ChristineES said:
I thought I would put Saul (who was called Paul) story of how Jesus came to him, blinded him and called him to preach His Word. It is from Acts Chapter 9 verses 1-20. The Story of Paul continues after that, and if you want to read it just pick up your bible and start reading. The translation is AKJV. (American King James Version)

1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why persecute you me?
5 And he said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you persecute: it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.

Me again: This verse is loaded! :wink: Christ was seen in full Godhead Glory & Saul was blinded. Notice how Christ was persecuted. It was Christ's Church that Saul was attacking. And surely the kicking was against the conviction of the Holy Ghost. Saul must have been in the trial of Stephen & heard & seen the Spirit filled Stephen & his Spirit filled TESTIMONY! Acts 7:38 & Acts 7:53-55 & Acts 7:58-60, WOW! What a God we have who can change us one time Saul's huh?

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what will you have me to do? And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told you what you must do.

Me again: Why did Christ not just speak the Word & heal Saul of his blindness Himself? And notice the most important lesson here as I see it, Saul was required to surender his total will to Christ, the one that he had been persecuting, and then joined this very church that He had started up!
"And it shall be told you what [you MUST DO]."
That is enough perhaps? :fadein:


7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays,
12 And has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on your name.
15 But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight immediately, and arose, and was baptized.
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
 
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