Bible Study Pharaoh and the hardening of hearts.

[stovebolts]

Faith..belief is a gift from God. You can't come to Christ unless the Father grants it. Well, that's what the combination of Eph 2:8 and John 6:65 tells us.

While I understand how you put these together, I think that the conclusion you come to is foreign to Jewish thought, including the Apostles.

Jews are always focused on the "story". When Stephen gets stoned, he recounts the "story". Within Paul's and John's Epistles, the "story" is foundational to their thought. They had it memorized for a reason.

If we look at Exodus, God gave ample chances for Pharaoh to repent. But Pharaoh hardens his heart against God, just like some of the Israelites did. This is why the Psalms speak of not hardening our heart, and why Jesus says, " for those who have ears.". In other words, don't harden your heart. Open your heart and listen.

Once Pharaoh hardened his own heart, even though God had exhibited grace toward him with signs that should have built Pharaoh's faith in God, he was used as an example of God's judgment and God invoked judgment for all to see as God then hardens Pharaoh's heart. We will all go before God for an accounting. Some will come before God in this life, while others in the world to come.

You see, God did not give Moses Pharaoh because Pharaoh had already hardened his heart and was unmovable and under God's judgment. In this same way, our Father will not give Jesus those who have hardened their own heart and are unmovable, even after receiving faith which they reject.

 

[stovebolts]

Even if Satan disappeared today...we would still have a sin nature.

Yes, but we wouldn't have a deceiver or a tempter.
In the world to come, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. But we will not loose our freewill. However, we will have full knowledge and understanding, and we will be immersed in truth.

 

[Cygnus]

While I understand how you put these together, I think that the conclusion you come to is foreign to Jewish thought, including the Apostles.

Jews are always focused on the "story". When Stephen gets stoned, he recounts the "story". Within Paul's and John's Epistles, the "story" is foundational to their thought. They had it memorized for a reason.

If we look at Exodus, God gave ample chances for Pharaoh to repent. But Pharaoh hardens his heart against God, just like some of the Israelites did. This is why the Psalms speak of not hardening our heart, and why Jesus says, " for those who have ears.". In other words, don't harden your heart. Open your heart and listen.

Once Pharaoh hardened his own heart, even though God had exhibited grace toward him with signs that should have built Pharaoh's faith in God, he was used as an example of God's judgment and God invoked judgment for all to see as God then hardens Pharaoh's heart. We will all go before God for an accounting. Some will come before God in this life, while others in the world to come.

You see, God did not give Moses Pharaoh because Pharaoh had already hardened his heart and was unmovable and under God's judgment. In this same way, our Father will not give Jesus those who have hardened their own heart and are unmovable, even after receiving faith which they reject.

Romans 9 tells us God had a hand in hardening Pharoahs heart

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, but we wouldn't have a deceiver or a tempter.
In the world to come, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. But we will not loose our freewill. However, we will have full knowledge and understanding, and we will be immersed in truth.

I don't deny free-will. The free-will I do deny is concerning our salvation. If you ack up a couple of verses from romans 18 we read "15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy."

 

[stovebolts]

Romans 9 tells us God had a hand in hardening Pharoahs heart

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Exactly. God will harden whomever he wills. Question is, who? And what?
When we look at the "story", Pharaoh repeatably hardens his own heart against God, although he had numerous opportunity to repent. Instead of repenting, he hardened his heart even the more.

It is at this point God executes Justice that sets the Israelites free and shows the most powerful Empire of the world ( at that time) that God is above all other God's.

God does not harden Pharaoh's heart until it is already hardened.

Juxtapose Moses with Jesus. God did not give Moses Pharaoh because of the hardness of his heart. In the same manner, God will not give Jesus a heart like Pharaoh.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't deny free-will. The free-will I do deny is concerning our salvation. If you ack up a couple of verses from romans 18 we read "15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy."

Yes, I agree. There comes a point of no return and it's judgment time. This is beyond our will. We cannot exert our will above God and Pharaoh who claimed to be greater than God is the example Paul gives.

Now, let's make a distinction. We are not talking about followers of Christ here. We are talking about those who reject God and attempt to exert their will above God's.

 

[Cygnus]

Exactly. God will harden whomever he wills. Question is, who? And what?
When we look at the "story", Pharaoh repeatably hardens his own heart against God, although he had numerous opportunity to repent. Instead of repenting, he hardened his heart even the more.

It is at this point God executes Justice that sets the Israelites free and shows the most powerful Empire of the world ( at that time) that God is above all other God's.

God does not harden Pharaoh's heart until it is already hardened.

Juxtapose Moses with Jesus. God did not give Moses Pharaoh because of the hardness of his heart. In the same manner, God will not give Jesus a heart like Pharaoh.

God had a reason for Pharaoh. Same with Judas.

Jesus could not have a heart like pharoah because Jesus is God.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, I agree. There comes a point of no return and it's judgment time. This is beyond our will. We cannot exert our will above God and Pharaoh who claimed to be greater than God is the example Paul gives.

Now, let's make a distinction. We are not talking about followers of Christ here. We are talking about those who reject God and attempt to exert their will above God's.

OK, not quite sure what you're trying to get at...but the way I see it if you have free-will concerning accepting Jesus then that choice to accept or reject will be based upon something. With free-will there is something in a persons life that effected their thoughts and caused them to choose or reject.

What I see is God regenerating a person.

As an analogy here is two views...

A man is drowning in the middle of a lake. If he goes under again he will die. Someone throws him a life preserver and all he has to do is choose to reach out and grab the life preserver and get saved. That is what I once believed. Then I heard another...the man is already dead and laying on the bottom of the lake. God has to jump in, swim down and pull the man to shore. Once on the shore God restores life to the man. God does all the work.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus could not have a heart like pharoah because Jesus is God.

Sorry, my bad, let me circle back. I was referring to John 6:65

God will not give Jesus a heart like Pharaoh.
What I mean by that, is God will not give Jesus a person like Pharaoh. Jesus did not spend the majority of his time with those who had already hardened their hearts. Instead, he spent the bulk of his time cultivating hearts for the day of harvest.

This does not mean faith has not been offered ( eph 2:8 ). Pharaoh was offered grace numerous times. Instead of accepting it, he rejected it and continued to harden his heart.

Justice without mercy is not justice.

 

[stovebolts]

OK, not quite sure what you're trying to get at...but the way I see it if you have free-will concerning accepting Jesus then that choice to accept or reject will be based upon something. With free-will there is something in a persons life that effected their thoughts and caused them to choose or reject.

What I see is God regenerating a person.

As an analogy here is two views...

A man is drowning in the middle of a lake. If he goes under again he will die. Someone throws him a life preserver and all he has to do is choose to reach out and grab the life preserver and get saved. That is what I once believed. Then I heard another...the man is already dead and laying on the bottom of the lake. God has to jump in, swim down and pull the man to shore. Once on the shore God restores life to the man. God does all the work.

What I'm getting at is this. The Holy Spirit is working in lives well before those people come to salvation. You see, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their sin. But make no mistake, we all have a choice, even if those choices are limited.

The choices we make matter. If we harden our hearts, there is a point of no return, and God will harden our hearts. We see this with Pharaoh, and we also see it with Israel. When God hardens a heart, he is invoking justice on a heart that was already hardened and had become unmovable, regardless of the promoting of the Holy Spirit.

We see this with Pharaoh, and we also see it with national Israel.

The warning is this. Don't harden your heart against God when it comes to sin. There is a way of living that leads to death and there is a way to living that leads to life.

Choose therefore this day to live for life.

 

[Cygnus]

What I'm getting at is this. The Holy Spirit is working in lives well before those people come to salvation. You see, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their sin. But make no mistake, we all have a choice, even if those choices are limited.

The choices we make matter. If we harden our hearts, there is a point of no return, and God will harden our hearts. We see this with Pharaoh, and we also see it with Israel. When God hardens a heart, he is invoking justice on a heart that was already hardened and had become unmovable, regardless of the promoting of the Holy Spirit.

We see this with Pharaoh, and we also see it with national Israel.

The warning is this. Don't harden your heart against God when it comes to sin. There is a way of living that leads to death and there is a way to living that leads to life.

Choose therefore this day to live for life.

God works on some people prior to regeneration...But the choice for salvation is not based upon you.

 

[stovebolts]

God works on some people prior to regeneration...But the choice for salvation is not based upon you.

Help me understand what your saying.
Are you saying Pharaoh wasn't given an opportunity to repent into salvation?

 

[Cygnus]

Help me understand what your saying.
Are you saying Pharaoh wasn't given an opportunity to repent into salvation?

Pharoah didn't have the ability to repent into salvation. It is my belief no person has the ability to repent unless God regenerates you.

Psalm 53;
2 God looks down from heaven
upon the sons of men
to see if any understand,
if any seek God.

3All have turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Paul repeats it in Romans 3.

 

[stovebolts]

Pharoah didn't have the ability to repent into salvation. It is my belief no person has the ability to repent unless God regenerates you.

Psalm 53;
2 God looks down from heaven
upon the sons of men
to see if any understand,
if any seek God.

3All have turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Paul repeats it in Romans 3.

If we look at Romans 3, we see that Paul is talking about the Jews.
I also suggest you study the Psalms more. Psalms 53 is a rework 300 years after David wrote Psalms 14. Again, it was written addressing the enemies of Israel aka the enemies of God. Psalm 14 is often spoken about in regard to the destruction of the first temple in 586 BC only to be repeated in 70 AD by Titus. Considering David's Psalm 14 was used in 53 to describe the destruction of the first Temple, Paul is signifying that the destruction of the second temple is emminent. Paul wrote Romans around 50 AD.

Psalm 53 - Free Bible Commentary in Easy English

Will They Never Learn? Free Bible commentary on Psalm 53 in Easy English

www.easyenglish.bible

When you put Paul's quote in context, it doesn't support your theology. If you see an issue with the information I have provided, please show me.

 

[Cygnus]

If we look at Romans 3, we see that Paul is talking about the Jews.
I also suggest you study the Psalms more. Psalms 53 is a rework 300 years after David wrote Psalms 14. Again, it was written addressing the enemies of Israel aka the enemies of God. Psalm 14 is often spoken about in regard to the destruction of the first temple in 586 BC only to be repeated in 70 AD by Titus. Considering David's Psalm 14 was used in 53 to describe the destruction of the first Temple, Paul is signifying that the destruction of the second temple is emminent. Paul wrote Romans around 50 AD.

Psalm 53 - Free Bible Commentary in Easy English

Will They Never Learn? Free Bible commentary on Psalm 53 in Easy English

www.easyenglish.bible

When you put Paul's quote in context, it doesn't support your theology. If you see an issue with the information I have provided, please show me.

Paul expanded and applied it to the Jews and Greeks. Paul says they are under sin....and so is every other human.

 

[jasonc]

Calvin bias and Arminism bias .

mean while I will observe .

 

[Christ_empowered]

Even the parable of the good shepherd seems to me to hint at The Lord knowing who is His.

 

[stovebolts]

Paul expanded and applied it to the Jews and Greeks. Paul says they are under sin....and so is every other human.

Paul is writing to the Christians in Rome. Yes, he makes a case that all are under sin. But he is also making a case for those who will harden their hearts, and what they are capable of.

Pharaoh had a hard heart, and in fear of the Jews, he had the male children murdered.
NIV Exodus 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 “When you are helping the Hebrew women during childbirth on the delivery stool, if you see that the baby is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.”

They cried out to the LORD, and the LORD heard their cries.

NIV Exodus 5:Pharaoh said, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go.”

He had a choice to do what was right, but he did not act in accordance with what was right, and his sin against Israel increased by his behavior toward them.

Pharaoh hardens his heart again.
NIV Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.

And again...
22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

Jesus says many time, " for those who have ears". In other words, for those who are willing to hear. When we harden our heart, we stop listening to others.

Chapter 8 is interesting where he begs the frogs come to an end, but once they are, he hardens his heart again.

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

Even the Pharaoh's advisors started to fear God, and recognized Him. But not Pharaoh.

18 Since the gnats were on people and animals everywhere, 19 the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said.

Pharaoh would not listen.
, But in verse 28, he almost did...but changed his mind. Again, he had an opportunity to repent. But he grieved the Holy Spirit which convicted him of his sin.

Then Moses left Pharaoh and prayed to the Lord, 31 and the Lord did what Moses asked. The flies left Pharaoh and his officials and his people; not a fly remained. 32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Exodus 9:8 . Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

When one refuses to soften their heart, and are causing great suffering on others, God will invoke justice, and harden their heart. Their destruction is emminent. There are no more offers of salvation

12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

 

[stovebolts]

Even the parable of the good shepherd seems to me to hint at The Lord knowing who is His.

Yes, and it is no different with you. You know who your friends are, and you know who your enemies are.
Tell me, would you be a good parent if you brought you child friends that hated him?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't deny free-will. The free-will I do deny is concerning our salvation. If you ack up a couple of verses from romans 18 we read "15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy."

Verse 15 does not give a basis as to why God has mercy upon one and not another. Just because no basis is given in the verse does not mean there is no basis at all. We can learn from other verses that basis is obedience to God's will Jer 18:8-10.

God showed mercy towards mankind (giving man a plan whereby men are saved through Christ) and not because of any willing or running that man has done. But to be saved by this plan of salvation does requires man's willing (Jn 7:17; Rev 22:17) and running (1 Cor 9:24; Heb 12:1)