Bible Study Poll on Christmas

[wavy]

There are those on these forums that don't believe Christmas should be celebrated as a christian holiday since Jesus is not believed, His birth or even His existance recognised.

This is not true. Please do not spread propoganda.

Leviticus 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am YHWH.

 

[Georges]

Is Jesus the prophesied Messiah?
Was He not born as predicted?
I'm no theologian with a PhD but I do understand the importance of His birth. I know he was born as promised. I know His work on the cross was also a promise fulilled. If Christmas were moved to a date more suited for the academics that'd be fine by me, as long as His birth is celebrated. That we recognise that event and the implied importance thereof is all the layman christian really needs isn't it?

Yep.....Ok...now that we have the best candidate for his birth as being Sukkot....any problem with at least remembering the season when it comes around? I'm not a Jew but I realize the importance of the Feast Days...I pause and reflect on them as they come around each year.

There are those on these forums that don't believe Christmas should be celebrated as a christian holiday since Jesus is not believed, His birth or even His existance recognised.

I also believe that it should be recognized, albeit in the proper season. I think his birth should be recognized even though there is no mention in the bible of it ever being celebrated by anyone, anywhere....

In short, non-believers, pagans or whatever you wish to name them. But take away the retail hoopla, take away all the shopping frenzy and there's not much left for those who don't believe Jesus was ever born. So what would be left? Would the christian still celebrate? You bet. What would the non-believer have left to celebrate? Without Christ's birth I seriously doubt there would be a Christmas in this country no matter what date you care to select.

I just personally think we should get it back on track...Retail and all....When asked why the change? You can say it's biblical.

Jesus is reason for the season.

MERRY CHRISTMAS Georges!! :x-mas:

Happy Hanukkah to you also..... :wink:

 

[Imagican]

Are you people serious? Are there really those among the Christian community that truly believe that there is even the remotest chance that Dec. 25th could be the day of the year in which Christ was born? Please tell me that there are none here that are unaware of where and when this celebration came into being!! Guys, really!!

And here's a little offering for those that set their 'Christmas trees' up each year.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4. They deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Christmas and it's accompanying tree are pagan traditions introduced into Christianity/? by the Catholic Church. The significance of Dec 25th goes back thousands of years before Christ, (even hundreds of years in the case of the Romans). The evergreens also date back, perhaps to the same time and peoples. There is much indication that the Babylonians had a celebration on this date and they too quite likely used 'evergreens' in their celebration. But the Romans had a major celibration at this time of the year and most of the traditions that we incorportate into our Christmas celibraton stem from their pagan holiday, NOT CHRIST'S BIRTHDAY.

And next we will be debating Santa Clause I suppose.

 

[D46]

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html

http://thewordheals.com/pview/xmas.htm

....food for thought.

 

[Imagican]

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html

http://thewordheals.com/pview/xmas.htm

....food for thought.

Thank you D46. I hesitate to offer links to such websites for fear that those that oppose my offerings will simply accuse me of posting 'subversive' information. Many accuse any information that conflicts with their understanding as being 'false' regardless of the amount of historical evidence or significance.

And for anyone that feels thus, I offer that even the Catholic informational sources will closely mimic these offered. The only difference is that they will deny ANYTHING that conflicts with their teachings. While admitting that Christ's birthdate is NOT Dec. 25th, they will deny that this date was chosen for it's previous pagan roots.

Obviously folks, God could foresee what would happen if the 'true' birthdate of Christ were offered. It would have turned into some 'joke' just as this fictitious date has. Furthermore, it's not the birth of Christ that brought salvation to the world, it was His death that offered the gift. The only significance of His birth is His birth itself, NOT the day in which it took place. If you want to worship the birth of Christ in a 'righteous' way, celebrate His birth EVERYDAY. Thank God for sending Him continuously as you pray and ask for forgiveness, for EVERYDAY is Christs' day.

I know, I know, it doesn't matter how or why 'Christmas' came to be. It's still 'fun' and many will say for this purpose alone that 'Christmas' is a 'good' thing. So be it.

 

[yesha]

Georges,

Did you notice this post from Free?

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/new ... 390859&p=1

 

[Georges]

Georges,

Did you notice this post from Free?

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/new ... 390859&p=1

Yesha...I did not, haven't been on a lot in the last couple of weeks. The thing that trips the timing up in that article is the time that Zecharias priestly duty (according to his family) was to be performed....

An Excerpt From the Book:
Rosh HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come
copyright © 1989, Joseph Good, all rights reserved

An easy to document, but not well known fact, is the date of the birth of Yeshua. This is done by establishing several things:

The date that Gabriel the angel tells Zechariah, the soon to be father of Yochanan, about his son's birth. (The birth date of Yochanan (John) is established by going forward nine months, the term of pregnancy).

The approximate date of Miriam's (Mary's) conception.

The date of Herod's death.

The date that Gabriel the angel told Zechariah that he and his wife were going to have Yochanan is established from the following. Luke 1.5 states that Zechariah is a priest of the course of Abijah. King David, according to I Chronicles twenty-four, had divided the priestly families into twenty-four groups. Each group was called a course, and named after the head of that particular family. Each course served for one week in the first half of the year, and for another week the second half of the year. This was in addition to the weeks of Hag haMatzah, Shavuot, and Sukkot, when all the courses were required to be present (Deuteronomy 16.16). Therefore, the first course served the first week of the year (Aviv); the second course, the second week; then all the courses, the third, because it was Hag haMatzah, and so on. I Chronicles 24.10 lists the course of Abijah as the eighth course. This course would serve the tenth week of the first half of the year, having allowed two weeks for Hag haMatzah and Shavuot. It is at this time that Zechariah receives the prophecy of Yochanan's birth.

according to the above article, if Z served in the 8th course, he would have been serving 8 weeks after the Jewish Religious New Year which is usually late March of early april. Passover occurs 14 days after the Jewish Religious New Year begins, so Z served his week approx 6 weeks after Passover.

Here is the link that provides the rest of the information on the timing of Jesus' birth.

http://www.hatikva.org/articles/birth-o ... ukkot.html

also, there are other items wrong with free's link.....including the remark about the incense burning....that was an everyday event. The article is very misleading...

 

[Georges]

Georges,

Did you notice this post from Free?

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/new ... 390859&p=1

 

[BenJasher]

I like Georges. He can put a smile on my wrinkled old face. I haven't figured him out yet though. He talks like a Jew, but claims he is not one. Small matter.

Was Jesus born or conceived on December 25th?

Possibly conceived, but not born on December 25th. He was born, most likely in September or October.

If we took all the commercial crap out of the way, would anyone still be celebrating Christmas?

The best answer I could give you to that is to tell you that December 25th was a pagan holiday long before Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. It was called Saturnalia. So if we managed to eradicate all the flotsam and jetsam from the holiday, at it's core, it still wouldn't be Jesus' birthday. Or a Christian holiday.

In order to not alienate the other dignitaries of the Empire who were still pagan, whose support and alliance he needed in order to pull off his "forced conversion" of the Roman Empire, he took one of their favorite holidays, put a little hair on it, and called it a Christian Holiday.

But in the eyes of some on this board, possessing that knowledge makes me a militant. It is a funny world we live in. To those poor folks with nothing better to occupy their minds with, people like me are part of what's wrong with the world today. Oh well. The religious authorities of Jesus' day said worse about Him.

One question that really needs to be asked here is if Constantine really wanted to Christianize the world, why didn't he make the Day of Atonement a Christian holiday? It would have been a holiday with built in Christian significance, and would have been much closer to the actual date of our Savior's birth.

Having said all that, I am not out to make people quit commemorating Jesus birth on December 25th. But I am in favor of properly educating people about the facts surrounding December 25th and the date of Jesus' birth.

 

[BenJasher]

Double post. Sorry!

 

[Georges]

Hi, Ben....I'm in green.

I like Georges. He can put a smile on my wrinkled old face. I haven't figured him out yet though. He talks like a Jew, but claims he is not one. Small matter.

Ben....I'm not a Jew....I'm sad to say, I was born and raised Lutheran, :-? however, you may consider me a God fearer who recognizes Jesus as the Messiah of God. :D

If I talk like a Jew, it is only because after 45 year's of searching for a clearer meaning of scripture, I've come to realize that it is very, very, important to understand the ancient customs of that people. Why? Because they are the one's to whom God gave....

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

For me, studying Judaism and it's priciples and customs have opened up a much clearer understanding of some of the more confusing Bible passages. The more I've learned about the traditions and customs, the more my understanding has opened up....kind of like the pieces of a puzzle coming together. Also, the more I learn, the more I gotta learn and it feeds on it's self.

Was Jesus born or conceived on December 25th?

Possibly conceived, but not born on December 25th. He was born, most likely in September or October.

[quote:c914f]If we took all the commercial crap out of the way, would anyone still be celebrating Christmas?

The best answer I could give you to that is to tell you that December 25th was a pagan holiday long before Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. It was called Saturnalia. So if we managed to eradicate all the flotsam and jetsam from the holiday, at it's core, it still wouldn't be Jesus' birthday. Or a Christian holiday.

In order to not alienate the other dignitaries of the Empire who were still pagan, whose support and alliance he needed in order to pull off his "forced conversion" of the Roman Empire, he took one of their favorite holidays, put a little hair on it, and called it a Christian Holiday.

But in the eyes of some on this board, possessing that knowledge makes me a militant. It is a funny world we live in. To those poor folks with nothing better to occupy their minds with, people like me are part of what's wrong with the world today. Oh well. The religious authorities of Jesus' day said worse about Him.

One question that really needs to be asked here is if Constantine really wanted to Christianize the world, why didn't he make the Day of Atonement a Christian holiday? It would have been a holiday with built in Christian significance, and would have been much closer to the actual date of our Savior's birth.

Part of the plan to erradicate any Jewish influence from Christianity.....

Having said all that, I am not out to make people quit commemorating Jesus birth on December 25th. But I am in favor of properly educating people about the facts surrounding December 25th and the date of Jesus' birth.[/quote:c914f]


Ben, if I can put a smile on anyones face by being funny, or dumb.....I can live with that....I do live to make people laugh....or try to anyway...