Pope says loveless relationship reason for low birth rates

[thessalonian]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International ... id=1900777

I think he's on to something.

"It is children and young people who are often the first to experience the consequences of this eclipse of love and hope. Often, instead of feeling loved and cherished, they appear to be merely tolerated."

This is sad. :

Blessings

 

[MrVersatile48]

Worth printing the whole article:-

Reuters) - Pope Benedict said on Friday that the growing number of loveless relationships may be behind declining birthrates in the developed world.

The Pope also said an "eclipse of love" and lack of moral guidance threatened the intellectual and spiritual development of future generations of children.

"Perhaps the lack of such creative and forward-looking love is the reason why many couples today choose not to marry, why so many marriages fail, and why birthrates have diminished," the Pope said in a message to a meeting of the Vatican's Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences.

"It is children and young people who are often the first to experience the consequences of this eclipse of love and hope. Often, instead of feeling loved and cherished, they appear to be merely tolerated."

The wife of British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Cherie Blair, who is Catholic, attended the event as an "outside expert" and was later received by the Pope in a private audience.

The academy was meeting to discuss the topic: "Vanishing Youth? Solidarity with Children and Young People in an Age of Turbulence."

"In a world shaped by the accelerating process of globalization, they are often exposed solely to materialistic visions of the universe, of life and human fulfillment," the Pope said.

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How many readers use public transport daily?

What you most often overhear in conversations on this topic, in any public place, is folk citing the nuclear etc threats - & the awful crimes against children - then going on to say, "I sure don't wanna bring any more babies into this cruel world"

Just 5 minutes to add the Bible perspective of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 - 'woe to pregnant women & nursing mothers in those days'

1 of my Thursday threads called for recognition of the urgency of the times

We need to focus our resources on finishing our Great Commission & hastening the Lord's return, to 'cut short' the sufferings of persecuted Christians by the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus

The climax generation began @ 1948 rebirth of Israel & is running out fast, per force of multiplying, intensifying birthpains of all kinds of disasters, as per Matt 24 etc, to bring on that Great Delivery, before the Great Tribulation starts: don't be Left Behind when Jesus comes, folks!

Pope outa touch with both Bible & people: face it, Thess, it's time to obey Rev 18 & get outa there!

Ian

 

[thessalonian]

Pope outa touch with both Bible & people: face it, Thess, it's time to obey Rev 18 & get outa there!

]

:roll:

Worth printing the whole article:-

Actually according to the mods, no it is not. They want us to maybe post a quote or two, then a link.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Must be gettin' old: I'd forgot dat!

Thanks Thess :wink:

 

[reznwerks]

out of touch

Worth printing the whole article:-

Reuters) - Pope Benedict said on Friday that the growing number of loveless relationships may be behind declining birthrates in the developed world.

The Pope also said an "eclipse of love" and lack of moral guidance threatened the intellectual and spiritual development of future generations of children.

I think the Pope is out of touch with reality. Lower birth rates corresponds with economic reality. It is no secret that years ago the Catholic church encouraged large families in order to propagate the faith and pay dues. Large families are no longer needed to tend the farm and do chores. Carrying on the family name is no longer of prime concern to todays younger people and they are also more concerned of declining resources in which their children will have to cope.If the Pope is equating loveless marriage with a lack of sex he is sadly mistaken. Contrary to the Popes' edict birth control is gaining acceptance among hard core Catholics and is being used more often.The Pope should stick to things he knows about . Marriage , sex, and economics isn't on the list.

 

[thessalonian]

When did Psalm 127 become out of touch? Since when are children not a blessing? When did scripture get changed so the man whose "quiver is full" is not blessed?

Acceptance of Birth Control has been shown to be a root cause of divorce, promiscuity, and abortion. The economics of Europe in which native Europeans are not replacing their population and have to encourage muslims to come in to work to prop up their economies is that what the Moslems could not do with war, they will do with a high birth rate. Take over Europe. I do think the Pope is quite in touch.

Blessings

 

[reznwerks]

touch

When did Psalm 127 become out of touch?
When it no longer applies. Having children you can't afford is not helping anyone.

Since when are children not a blessing?
When they arrive unexpectadely.

When did scripture get changed so the man whose "quiver is full" is not blessed?
When the man cannot afford to take care of them.

Acceptance of Birth Control has been shown to be a root cause of divorce, promiscuity, and abortion.
Where do you come up with these words of wisdom. Birth control the cause of abortion? Birth control ends abortion before it's needed. Birth control does not cause divorce. Men will find other partners if he doesn't want to have children. Promiscuity has always been around but it was always a hush hush secret. If sex was as secret as you think it was in the past the human race would have died out years ago. "Leave it to Beaver" and the "Nelsons" is not history.

The economics of Europe in which native Europeans are not replacing their population and have to encourage muslims to come in to work to prop up their economies is that what the Moslems could not do with war, they will do with a high birth rate. Take over Europe. I do think the Pope is quite in touch.
Muslims are emmigrating to Europe for the same reason Mexicans are coming here. There is no work for them at home and employers can get away at paying them cheap. How does it make sense to keep families in poverty by encouraging them to have children. Muslims will eventually take over Europe and they do have an agenda. However having bigger families is not the answer if that is what the Pope is concerned about. The Pope is so far out of the game he is not even in line for tickets.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Re: touch

When it no longer applies. Having children you can't afford is not helping anyone.

Since when are children not a blessing?
When they arrive unexpectadely.

Hmmmmm. Oddly enough children have always been arriving unexpectedly, actually probably more so at the time Psalm 127 was written. So an unplanned unexpected child has never been a blessing in the past. Shall we start forcing abortions if a child is unexpected because it is not a blessing? :-? I simply don't see in Pslam 127 this theory you have that an unexpected child is not a blessing.

When did scripture get changed so the man whose "quiver is full" is not blessed?
When the man cannot afford to take care of them.

Ah, America, the most wealthy nation ever in the world and we cannot afford to take care of our children and so they are not blessings and are to be avoided and discarded.

Acceptance of Birth Control has been shown to be a root cause of divorce, promiscuity, and abortion.
Where do you come up with these words of wisdom. Birth control the cause of abortion? Birth control ends abortion before it's needed. Birth control does not cause divorce. Men will find other partners if he doesn't want to have children. Promiscuity has always been around but it was always a hush hush secret. If sex was as secret as you think it was in the past the human race would have died out years ago. "Leave it to Beaver" and the "Nelsons" is not history.

Ya think like a man rez. Promuscuity has skyrocketed since birth control has been made available. Why? Because morality has taken a crash, because the responsibility of having sex confined to marriage because of the possibility of having children has been taken away. Now people can "get away" with having sex outside of marriage. The moral framework of our children because of this new thinking has crashed and so children have sex outside of marriage but they fail to use ABC or their ABC fails (quite freequently). They get pregnant and many of them choose abortions. Oh, did I forget to mention that ABC also causes single parent families? Divorce, yes. ABC causes selfishness in couples. It also promotes infidelity. And further it discourages marriage because men can be out after sex without the responsibility that goes with it. And yes ABC has caused a drastic increase in STD's. Especially ABC which has given teenagers the false impression that it is okay to have sex and their will be no consequences if they use ABC. God will not be fooled however.


I appreciate your posts rez. You are in fact out of touch and using standard false understandings and logic to defend ABC. It's an abomination!

 

[ArtGuy]

Re: touch

Ya think like a man rez. Promuscuity has skyrocketed since birth control has been made available.

Not really. People are just more open about it now.

Now people can "get away" with having sex outside of marriage. The moral framework of our children because of this new thinking has crashed and so children have sex outside of marriage but they fail to use ABC or their ABC fails (quite freequently).

They have sex one way or another. Would you rather have teenagers have sex that results in a child that is probably going to be either aborted or raised by a single mom who's probably going to wind up in poverty as a result of her mistake? Or would you rather they use birth control and at least spare themselves a lot of heartache?

Yes, yes, you'd rather they not have sex to begin with. So would I. But that's not a realistic option.

They get pregnant and many of them choose abortions. Oh, did I forget to mention that ABC also causes single parent families? Divorce, yes. ABC causes selfishness in couples. It also promotes infidelity. And further it discourages marriage because men can be out after sex without the responsibility that goes with it. And yes ABC has caused a drastic increase in STD's. Especially ABC which has given teenagers the false impression that it is okay to have sex and their will be no consequences if they use ABC. God will not be fooled however.

Well, not quite. This link shows several interesting things that contradict what you're saying:

- More teens are abstaining from sex now than before.
- Teen pregnancy rates are down.
- Teen birthrates in the US, where abstinence-only education is more prevalent, is considerably higher than in European nations, where abstinence-only educations is virtually unheard of.

This link shows that the STD rates are virtually identical between teens who make abstinence pledges and those who don't. The biggest difference is that pledgers are much less likely to use protection, and much less likely to get tested for STDs after they have sex. Interestingly, while the individual STD rates for pledgers and non-pledgers are statistically the same, the STD rate is almost double in areas where many kids have pledged as compared to areas where few have pledged.

The conclusions here are pretty clear: Kids are going to have sex, as they always have. We can either educate them about pregnancy and STD prevention measures and have them engage in intercourse responsibly, or we can keep them in the dark and have them do it irresponsibly. Abstinence-only programs demonstrably don't work, as evidenced by the extremely high teen pregnancy rates in areas that rely upon it.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: touch

[

Hmmmmm. Oddly enough children have always been arriving unexpectedly, actually probably more so at the time Psalm 127 was written. So an unplanned unexpected child has never been a blessing in the past. Shall we start forcing abortions if a child is unexpected because it is not a blessing? :-? I simply don't see in Pslam 127 this theory you have that an unexpected child is not a blessing.
It is the twenty first century and children are no longer considered property and free labor. There is no need to force abortions on unexpected children because it happens far too frequently as it is.The solution is better education and more access to birth control. In this day and age probably 99% of abortions should not occur with what is available.

When did scripture get changed so the man whose "quiver is full" is not blessed?
When the man cannot afford to take care of them.

Ah, America, the most wealthy nation ever in the world and we cannot afford to take care of our children and so they are not blessings and are to be avoided and discarded.
You are comparing apples and oranges. The poor in this country live better than some of rich in other developing countries. The fact is that the poor in this country want to live like their more wealthy neighbors and their is nothing wrong with that. There is more to rearing children than putting food on the table. It takes a lot of money to live in a decent house, drive a decent car , good schools, extra curricular activities, college etc. Too do less than this and know it beforehand only shortchanges this child and the adults as well. In the end the rest of society pays for it.Then again you might be one of those people that would tell those struggling families that this is what God wants and you will be rewarded for it in the hereafter. At the end of the week look at your wife and shout for joy "it's a blessing" at all we don't have.

[quote:72c2c]Acceptance of Birth Control has been shown to be a root cause of divorce, promiscuity, and abortion.
Where do you come up with these words of wisdom. Birth control the cause of abortion? Birth control ends abortion before it's needed. Birth control does not cause divorce. Men will find other partners if he doesn't want to have children. Promiscuity has always been around but it was always a hush hush secret. If sex was as secret as you think it was in the past the human race would have died out years ago. "Leave it to Beaver" and the "Nelsons" is not history.

Ya think like a man rez. Promuscuity has skyrocketed since birth control has been made available. Why? Because morality has taken a crash, because the responsibility of having sex confined to marriage because of the possibility of having children has been taken away. Now people can "get away" with having sex outside of marriage. The moral framework of our children because of this new thinking has crashed and so children have sex outside of marriage but they fail to use ABC or their ABC fails (quite freequently). They get pregnant and many of them choose abortions. Oh, did I forget to mention that ABC also causes single parent families? Divorce, yes. ABC causes selfishness in couples. It also promotes infidelity. And further it discourages marriage because men can be out after sex without the responsibility that goes with it. And yes ABC has caused a drastic increase in STD's. Especially ABC which has given teenagers the false impression that it is okay to have sex and their will be no consequences if they use ABC. God will not be fooled however.
You're way off topic and ranting. You want to talk about morals start another thread. The Pope is way out of touch as to the reasons for the declining birth rate. When he gets married , has kids , has to pay the bills and get a real job then maybe he can offer some advise. Until then he is not an authority . When asked why couples don't have more children the answer is time and money. It now takes the salary of two people to run a household. This hardly gives mothers let alone fathers any time to rear children. More children mean more money so most responsible couples limit how many they are willing to have.

I appreciate your posts rez. You are in fact out of touch and using standard false understandings and logic to defend ABC. It's an abomination!
My logic is fine thank you very much. You need to read something other than the bible like maybe a newspaper. Talk to some people outside of your bible group and see whats going on. Take the Pope with you while you are at it.[/quote:72c2c]

 

[gingercat]

Excuse me eveyone, I would like to chime in if you don't mind :D

I am teaching my kids not to have sex until they get married and they should not use birth control method.

All we need is more discipline; we can do it. We just have to lower our standard of living. We are way too spoiled and materialistic. Wives can stay home and take care of the family.

Most of us Christians are too spoiled and secular. Where is the Christian spirit?

 

[Anya]

Re: Pope says loveless relationship reason for low birth rat

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1900777

I think he's on to something.

"It is children and young people who are often the first to experience the consequences of this eclipse of love and hope. Often, instead of feeling loved and cherished, they appear to be merely tolerated."

This is sad. :

Blessings

Hey now, this isn't sad, this is not discouraging.
If you want my honest opinion. The pope doesn't know the first thing about love, he would be the first to discourage many types of love.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, he just sits from the top of the tower and looks down at the world with eyes clouded by prejudice.
Don't take it seriously, this generation has a lot of promise in the new world.

 

[paisley]

I think the reason we have a lower birthrate is due to "education" and economics. In industrialized countries we are told to responsibly plan our families. This is done inside and outside the church. We are told to consider enormous educational costs even before we are pregnant. We can easily find the shocking estimates of how much it costs to raise a child from cradle to college. We are told of how women in the old days used to die during birth or at an early age due to having so many children that it took a toll out on her body and health. We are instructed to give quality time to each individual child so to have a lot of children and work makes it seem impossible to give that time. Industrialized countries are trying to "educate" under developed countries as well. The more we educate and emphasize living at a certain standard of living, the lower the birthrate becomes.
I don't think the lower birth rate is a reflection of a lack of love because it is often people in loveless relationships that want children in hopes of fullfilling their lack of love through a child.

 

[Gary]

Clear thinking from the pope? Hardly!!

The economics of Europe in which native Europeans are not replacing their population and have to encourage muslims to come in to work to prop up their economies is that what the Moslems could not do with war, they will do with a high birth rate. Take over Europe. I do think the Pope is quite in touch.

I think he is hopelessly out of touch with this issue (Islam). He thinks Muslims are saved anyway.... no need to preach and share the Gospel with them. :o His predecessors encourage all-out war and the Crusades. Your "church" is very confused!

Secondly, he should think more clearly about love and marriage... and encourage his priests to marry and have children.

:-? :-?

 

[Slevin]

I don't think the pope has any real right to suggest that a relationship is loveless for any couple.

It's interesting to see how celibate old men who've never been with a woman can have any idea what that is like and dictate to other people what it should be like.

I also think anecdotal selective evidence regarding what you hear "on the subway" is hardly an objective statement.

We don't "need" more people, the Earth certainly doesn't need more people.

Ah, America, the most wealthy nation ever in the world and we cannot afford to take care of our children and so they are not blessings and are to be avoided and discarded.

Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. It has nothing to do with "discarding" what you have or "avoiding" it. It has everything to do with preventing suffering through planning, organization, and forethought.

 

[reznwerks]

teach

Excuse me eveyone, I would like to chime in if you don't mind :D
Feel free.

I am teaching my kids not to have sex until they get married and they should not use birth control method.
I taught my kids the same thing but I am a realist. I also told them that there is absolutely no reason to ever become a pregnant teenager.Some of there friends did indeed become pregnant. Fortunately there was always open and unhindered discussion of touchy subjects and you would be shocked at how uninformed these girls were from the start regarding how one gets pregnant , when, how to prevent and where to go for help. I can't think of any mother (well off or poor) that would encourage their daughter or son to go have sex.The reality is that sex is all around and I might suspect you might not know how pervasive it really is in their world. Unless you are willing to chaparone your kids during waking hours, monitor all their time online, interrogate their friends ,monitor television, isolate them from friends during school have them wear a chastity belt go with them and hang out with them I think you are naive to think you can prevent them from having sex. It's a game of russian roulette . Do you really want to suffer the consequences if your child comes home pregnant because they didn't know how to prevent it?

All we need is more discipline; we can do it. We just have to lower our standard of living. We are way too spoiled and materialistic. Wives can stay home and take care of the family.
Perhaps more discipline would help but it's not there and not going to happen unless you want to adhere to the suggestions above. I am a realist. Why should we lower our standards of living? Our standards of living are already being lowered that is why both mother and father have to go to work. In the fifties a father could go to work and mother could stay home and still a house was possible, a car, eduction if one wanted etc. Unless you are a professional and established I don't know of any family able to do it on less unless your living in a trailer park and getting welfare. Sorry , no way no how.

Most of us Christians are too spoiled and secular. Where is the Christian spirit?
I don't think Christians are any more spoiled than anyone else. Why should anyone subsribe to the theory of poverty? The Christian spirit is about being prosperous. Jesus said so.
"Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in good health, even as thy soul prospers." 3 John 2
The Roman soldiers gambled for the clothes of Jesus. They didn't risk their hard earned salary on rags. The ministry of Jesus had enough money to have a treasurer and at if you read about the miracle of Jesus turning stone to bread they even considered going out to buy the bread. So having more and being prosperous is the Christian spirit.

 

[gingercat]

Re: teach

you might not know how pervasive it really is in their world.


ginger;
I have 16 year old daughter and she is home schooled.

rezn;
In the fifties a father could go to work and mother could stay home and still a house was possible, a car, eduction if one wanted etc.


ginger;
Like I have been saying this country is wealthy, why do both parents have to work and damage family so you can get matereal satisfaction?

rezn;
I don't think Christians are any more spoiled than anyone else. /quote]


ginger;
I never said Christians are more spoiled than anyone else. As Christians we should have disciplined lives. Jesus tells us to be salt and light in the world. If we are living like the rest of the world we are not different from the world. We should be very different from the world!

 

[reznwerks]

Re: teach

you might not know how pervasive it really is in their world.


ginger;
I have 16 year old daughter and she is home schooled.
Well then you have done as I suggested. Her time her friends etc are pretty much controlled by you. It is admirable that you can home school your daughter but what I find when they enter the adult world they don't cope well when they have to rub elbows with those that are more seasoned in the realities of life.The only way to avoid this is if she associates with only those members of the church and like minded individuals which is probably just shy of being considered a cultish lifestyle.

rezn;
In the fifties a father could go to work and mother could stay home and still a house was possible, a car, eduction if one wanted etc.


ginger;
Like I have been saying this country is wealthy, why do both parents have to work and damage family so you can get matereal satisfaction?
Because now the economic realities are that if you want a house, a car , an education then both parents have to work. I don't think that is material satisfaction. Having all of the above would also lend itself to the thinking the neighborhood would also be acceptable. To have less usually means living in the questionable part of town which invites more problems. I am really curious as too your situation and how you are able to stay at home. What does your husband do , how did you acquire your home, etc. Whatever the answer I am willing to bet you are not in the norm for most people. I know you live around the Amish and I think your reality might be clouded by the atmosphere.

rezn;
I don't think Christians are any more spoiled than anyone else. /quote]


ginger;
I never said Christians are more spoiled than anyone else. As Christians we should have disciplined lives. Jesus tells us to be salt and light in the world. If we are living like the rest of the world we are not different from the world. We should be very different from the world!

Well that means you could either strive to be wealthy or be content to be poor.I would venture to say that most Christians when asked would answer neither and you can be as disiplined as you want. When the money is not there you have two choices: work more or have less and accept the consequences.

 

[CatholicXian]

Re: Clear thinking from the pope? Hardly!!

The economics of Europe in which native Europeans are not replacing their population and have to encourage muslims to come in to work to prop up their economies is that what the Moslems could not do with war, they will do with a high birth rate. Take over Europe. I do think the Pope is quite in touch.

I think he is hopelessly out of touch with this issue (Islam). He thinks Muslims are saved anyway.... no need to preach and share the Gospel with them. :o His predecessors encourage all-out war and the Crusades. Your "church" is very confused!

Secondly, he should think more clearly about love and marriage... and encourage his priests to marry and have children.

:-? :-?

I'm surprised at this remark from you, Gary.

These teachings on love and marriage are the same as those espoused in the old "saran wrap" thread...

Priests do not need to get married and have children. Sex isn't everything. A man does not NEED to have sex (he may feel like it at times, but he is called to exercise restraint in many, many circumstances). The Church does not forbid marriage. It is discipline for Latin rite priests to remain celibate (though there are a few married Latin rite priests), Eastern rite priests may be married (though they must be married BEFORE becoming a priest)... having a celibate priesthood is good for the Church. We need priests focused on serving the Church who don't have to worry about first serving their own wife and children. A wife and children are GREAT responsibilities and priests have enough responsibilities to govern the parish already. I don't think it would be fair to a married priest... even in the eastern rite, a married priest is usually paired with a celibate priest-- and married priests are usually only associate pastors, and cannot be bishops. The office demands too much of them and would cut into family time. And the Church is a great lover and respecter of families... there is a great importance and dignity in family life.

Regarding Muslims... I'm not sure the Church says that we ought not evangelize them. We want the Muslims to embrace the Truth of Jesus Christ very much so. But we do have to step back and realize that they are striving to worship the "God of Abraham" and that they have just become confused along the way. Furthermore, during the times of the Crusades dialogue was not as open and society was not as "civilized" (though I use that term rather loosely, as there are many things regarding modern society today that are highly uncivilized.. abortion, et al.). The Crusades sprang from a time when it was kill or be killed. It wasn't as if the Pope could invite the Islamic leaders over for tea and to discuss theology... times have changed... and we must grow and deepen our faith and evangelism to reach out to those who most need it.

 

[gingercat]

Re: teach

I know you live around the Amish and I think your reality might be clouded by the atmosphere. [/b]

Rezn,

I have had fellowship with the organized church people and I know they are living like secular people especially when it comes to material possesion.

I also know many non traditional Christians like JW and Mormons; they are living very humble lives. If they can survive with such humbly why not the rest of the Christians? Everything what you are saying is so secular way of thinking and living. No, I am not living with amish people. I don't even know where they exist. Jesus lived humbly and we should live like Him too.

Everything is expensive like you said; if we don't live humbly we cannot help other people in need either.