post-Christian nations

[Christ_empowered]

Much of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. is now post-Christian. This is kinda sad. On the other hand, they have universal health care, a safety net, and more social services and often have lower crime rates than the United States.

What's going on here? Why is it that the United States has more people who identify as Christian, yet we have a so many (possibly avoidable) social problems that aren't as big an issue as in, say, the UK?

For those of you who live in these decidedly, obviously, blatantly post-Christian+highly secularized nations, what do you think about your society? Human nature is human nature, wherever you go. Having said that, I think some secularized nations are more live-able for a lot of people than the United States.

Let me just say, also, that I --do-- like the United States. I don't hate the US, and I believe God has me here for a reason, just as He has all His other children where they are for any number of reasons that may or may not be apparent in this life, here on Earth. I get that.

What I don't get is...well, there's so much anger and hostility and general wrath going on in the United States. Rich people want more and more, middle class people are angry because of the instability of being middle class and the lack of upward mobility, a lot of black people are angry about the cops and a lack of progress in race relations, conservatives are angry at liberals, the liberals think they're pursuing the greater good, a lot of people are taking out a lot of issues on the poor and immigrants, and...

I don't get it. Before I was on disability, I was in a neighboring state, living off my (loving, generous, kind) people. So, I went to church. Some 17 year old young lady talked about me "living off welfare" and it dawned on me, recently: that's America, especially in the South.

Maybe I'm just upset because people put me through it, so I've seen the dark side of American culture. I dunno.

But...yeah...what are your thoughts?

 

[Corn Pop]

Im not sure brother. I mean maybe it's just the bigger something gets the more corrupt it becomes. I mean you mention Nz and Australia and Nz only has a population of 4 million and Australia is only about 20 million.

I never looked into the crime rates but lesser crime rates maybe it's because they have a much less population than the US. How many is US, like over 300 million people?

 

[reba]

If some things are not considered crimes the crime rate will go down,,

 

[Corn Pop]

Edit. Need better info.

 

[Corn Pop]

Guns might also be a factor. In NZ knowone has legal guns but farmers and some other people for other reasons, but in general everyone is unarmed including most cops and there has never been movements or hate towards cops or any type of race wars, the only wars are gang wars and if your not in a gang theres no problem.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm just...well, scared, a lil bit. I have a friend who got married and moved to the UK. She's loving it, especially since her job was required to give her maternity leave for a long while (she still did a lot of her work from home, lol) and she's in the social sciences, so she's all about some well-planned social services.

Then there's the United States. Its so strange to me. We've got all this $$$ floating around, and we have homeless people...everywhere. I live in The Bible Belt, and we have shelters. Some of them are Christian, there's one locally that I think is SBC-affiliated, which is good. Local churches do a lot, which is great, but...

The problem is beyond what the churches can handle. The churches are overwhelmed, the very few gov't-funded programs are overwhelmed, and...the pain and suffering continue.

This is kinda personal for me, because I would be homeless (at best) if it wasn't for my people. Actually, when I was put in my 1st mental hospital, age 20, they wanted to send me off to a homeless shelter. This was after they'd heavily electro-shocked me and, of course, billed my parents and the insurance company tons of $$$.

So, I could be one of the nameless, despised homeless people, easily. And then I think about all these shootings and the un-checked inequality (which, over time, hurts most people + damages the economy), and the way not just the have-nots, but even the have-not so much and have-just barely enough people are treated, and...its crazy.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much about it and not enjoying what God has done for me, in my own life. I've apparently had mental problems, on the more severe end, since I was a kid. Nobody knew what to do, my parents did the best they could (and better than a lot of parents would have, I see that now), but I messed up, a lot, and a lot of "professionals" blamed me for everything, especially when they couldn't make more $$$ of my misery.

So, I've experienced the more punitive, harsh, cruel, heartless part of American culture, and I'm blessed that The Lord saw me through+reconciled me to my family, despite who I was and what I did in years past.

Thing is, my experience is now unusual because of God's work in my life and my now "genteel" family's generosity and love. Without them, I'd just be a statistic, probably dead on the street somewhere, and all the "good" people of this area would shake their heads, a lot of people would laugh, and the "professionals" would talk about "poor life choices," and move on to the next victim/"patient".

Other countries have hospitals and housing allowances and they don't seem to have such a punitive, cruel culture. I could be wrong.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Guns might also be a factor. In NZ knowone has legal guns but farmers and some other people for other reasons, but in general everyone is unarmed including most cops and there has never been movements or hate towards cops or any type of race wars, the only wars are gang wars and if your not in a gang theres no problem.

New Zealand?
Christchurch?
I heard that was high crime.

 

[Corn Pop]

There is a crime rate anywhere.

 

[Corn Pop]

New Zealand?
Christchurch?
I heard that was high crime.

I should look into it and get some facts.

 

[daninthelionsden]

New Zealand?
Christchurch?
I heard that was high crime.

I've only heard Christchurch has somewhat of a problem not all across New Zealand.

 

[OzSpen]

Much of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. is now post-Christian. This is kinda sad. On the other hand, they have universal health care, a safety net, and more social services and often have lower crime rates than the United States.

What's going on here? Why is it that the United States has more people who identify as Christian, yet we have a so many (possibly avoidable) social problems that aren't as big an issue as in, say, the UK?

For those of you who live in these decidedly, obviously, blatantly post-Christian+highly secularized nations, what do you think about your society? Human nature is human nature, wherever you go. Having said that, I think some secularized nations are more live-able for a lot of people than the United States.

Let me just say, also, that I --d o-- like the United States. I don't hate the US, and I believe God has me here for a reason, just as He has all His other children where they are for any number of reasons that may or may not be apparent in this life, here on Earth. I get that.

What I don't get is...well, there's so much anger and hostility and general wrath going on in the United States. Rich people want more and more, middle class people are angry because of the instability of being middle class and the lack of upward mobility, a lot of black people are angry about the cops and a lack of progress in race relations, conservatives are angry at liberals, the liberals think they're pursuing the greater good, a lot of people are taking out a lot of issues on the poor and immigrants, and...

I don't get it. Before I was on disability, I was in a neighboring state, living off my (loving, generous, kind) people. So, I went to church. Some 17 year old young lady talked about me "living off welfare" and it dawned on me, recently: that's America, especially in the South.

Maybe I'm just upset because people put me through it, so I've seen the dark side of American culture. I dunno.

But...yeah...what are your thoughts?

CE,

You need to provide us with statistics that compare, say, crime rates in the USA vs. Europe, Australia and NZ.

Please don't forget that the wonderful social services we experience in Australia (universal medical care, unemployment benefits, aged and disability pensions, etc) are funded by the higher taxes we pay throughout our lives. We've become acclimatised to paying higher taxes. See Fact check: Comparing Australia's income tax take with other OECD countries. We pay a 10% goods and services tax (GST) and there is talk of raising it to 15% (NZ already has a 15% GST. See HERE for a comparison of the NZ & Australian GST systems). This is a percentage added to products purchased, excluding food and a few other items.

You asked: 'For those of you who live in these decidedly, obviously, blatantly post-Christian+highly secularized nations, what do you think about your society?' There are especial challenges in living in a post-Christian society. There is no such thing as a 'simple Gospel' presentation. There are many who oppose the Christian faith with some thorny questions and we need the answers urged on us by 1 Pet 3:15 (ESV).

Training in apologetics is needed to address these issues in my society, but the church here is weak in equipping the saints for the work of apologetic ministry in a hostile environment. Children raised through Christian schools are especially vulnerable when they hit university if they are not equipped to provide a defense of the faith.

They are my 2-pennies worth.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Much of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. is now post-Christian. This is kinda sad. On the other hand, they have universal health care, a safety net, and more social services and often have lower crime rates than the United States.

What's going on here? Why is it that the United States has more people who identify as Christian, yet we have a so many (possibly avoidable) social problems that aren't as big an issue as in, say, the UK?

For those of you who live in these decidedly, obviously, blatantly post-Christian+highly secularized nations, what do you think about your society? Human nature is human nature, wherever you go. Having said that, I think some secularized nations are more live-able for a lot of people than the United States.

Let me just say, also, that I --do-- like the United States. I don't hate the US, and I believe God has me here for a reason, just as He has all His other children where they are for any number of reasons that may or may not be apparent in this life, here on Earth. I get that.

What I don't get is...well, there's so much anger and hostility and general wrath going on in the United States. Rich people want more and more, middle class people are angry because of the instability of being middle class and the lack of upward mobility, a lot of black people are angry about the cops and a lack of progress in race relations, conservatives are angry at liberals, the liberals think they're pursuing the greater good, a lot of people are taking out a lot of issues on the poor and immigrants, and...

I don't get it. Before I was on disability, I was in a neighboring state, living off my (loving, generous, kind) people. So, I went to church. Some 17 year old young lady talked about me "living off welfare" and it dawned on me, recently: that's America, especially in the South.

Maybe I'm just upset because people put me through it, so I've seen the dark side of American culture. I dunno.

But...yeah...what are your thoughts?

Remove Europe from your above list CE. The same conditions no longer exist - things are changing.

As far as health care - it could be socialized and work well, but in most countries it does not. I believe it might depend on the size of the country - the age of its inhabitants - and if there is corruption in the country where a lot of money is taken from the people for private gain.

All I'll say is that there is less crime where people know each other and they are all are from the same culture. I said culture - not color of skin. And where they all seek the same objective. I'll leave it at that.

Wondering

 

[Papa Zoom]

If some things are not considered crimes the crime rate will go down,,

it's funny but I've actually made this suggestion in my school. I use it in my classroom. If I have a rule that keeps getting broken, I reexamine the rule to see if it's that important. If it's not, I kill the rule. It works. When I taught kindergarten, kids were always breaking my new crayons. I went over the rule constantly to no avail. One day I told the kids to break all the crayons in half. That way we'd have more crayons. They didn't want to do it now that it was okay. But I demonstrated it and if they needed to share with a friend, they broke one in half. It's not been a problem since.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Much of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. is now post-Christian. This is kinda sad. On the other hand, they have universal health care, a safety net, and more social services and often have lower crime rates than the United States.

What's going on here? Why is it that the United States has more people who identify as Christian, yet we have a so many (possibly avoidable) social problems that aren't as big an issue as in, say, the UK?

For those of you who live in these decidedly, obviously, blatantly post-Christian+highly secularized nations, what do you think about your society? Human nature is human nature, wherever you go. Having said that, I think some secularized nations are more live-able for a lot of people than the United States.

Let me just say, also, that I --do-- like the United States. I don't hate the US, and I believe God has me here for a reason, just as He has all His other children where they are for any number of reasons that may or may not be apparent in this life, here on Earth. I get that.

What I don't get is...well, there's so much anger and hostility and general wrath going on in the United States. Rich people want more and more, middle class people are angry because of the instability of being middle class and the lack of upward mobility, a lot of black people are angry about the cops and a lack of progress in race relations, conservatives are angry at liberals, the liberals think they're pursuing the greater good, a lot of people are taking out a lot of issues on the poor and immigrants, and...

I don't get it. Before I was on disability, I was in a neighboring state, living off my (loving, generous, kind) people. So, I went to church. Some 17 year old young lady talked about me "living off welfare" and it dawned on me, recently: that's America, especially in the South.

Maybe I'm just upset because people put me through it, so I've seen the dark side of American culture. I dunno.

But...yeah...what are your thoughts?

Why is it like this? Well, I have a couple of things to say.

One is because everything marked 'Christian' in some way ends up worse than the world. The prophets blasted Judah for doing thing worse than the pagan nations around them. That's just the way it ends up. Put God into it in some way and the people involved will invariably end up worse than the heathens around them.

Another thing is, social programs give the average person the safety net that seems to extinguish the fears that drive their criminal tenancies.
My ex-sister-in-law, and my brother-in-law both started putting God things in their conversation after they started receiving support through various government social programs. It put them at ease and made room in them for a kind of godliness. Notice I said 'average' person. I mean the person who is satisfied with having what he needs to live and have cable television, all at the same time. They don't have ambitions for making lots of money in business or anything like that. They just don't want to run the rat race. So, when you take care of their food and housing they get real happy....happy enough to start thinking God is good, and so He enters into their conversation. But when they were suffering in the rat race they cursed and hated him.