Post Millennial Jerusalem....Where's Paul?

[Georges]

The bumbling, stupid, keystone Apostles......couldn't figure out the Gospel of Christ until Paul straightened them out....

Ever wonder........

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

why Paul's name isn't mentioned in the description of the City? Even those goof-ball disciples have a part. My goodness, even those Christ killer Jews have Gates named after them....and the saintly apostle Paul....where is his part?

Could it be he ain't got one?

After all, in Rev 2-3, Christ does chastise the Churches that Paul had founded....after all didn't Paul did pave the way for antinomianism which lead the believers away from Messianic Judaism...

Maybe his part was taken away......

 

[MrVersatile48]

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Colossians 4:1-3 KJV

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I suspect deliberate mischief from a distinctively non-evangelical cultist in the OP?

Bible-believing, Spirit-led, born-again Christian readers can verify that Peter endored Paul's apostleship, even though Paul had had to rebuke Peter's hypocrisy in not eating with Gentile Christians when Jewish believers were present

Very likely Paul's boldness & truthfulness there is precisely why Peter did make sure to endorse Paul

As all the other apostles did in Acts

The Mickey Mouse Monkey-round-er in this thread is its originator!

Here's a link to his kinda suspect set of posts:-

http://www.christianforums.net/search.p ... or=Georges

I'm kinda busy now, but another competent Bible teacher may feel led to correct his other shenanigans so that the unwary/unaware aren't deceived & led astray, OK?

Ian

 

[preterist]

why Paul's name isn't mentioned in the description of the City? Even those goof-ball disciples have a part.

Your first honest post. You finally reveal truthfully what you think of Paul and the disciples. Which also leads to your true feelings of the entire New Testament.

But you never did answer if you still hold to the Law and practice animal sacrifices.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Racists & anti-semites need to see the Forign Language Film Oscar-Winner:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 917#251917

Sophie Scholl was every inch, @ just 21, a WW2 Esther 1-10

So read that 10-chapter book..

that inspired Tuesday's Feast of Purim, any Hamas/Haman fans out there..

B4 ya get hung on ya own gallows, OK?

Mordecai Uncovers a Conspiracy

19 When the virgins were assembled a second time, Mordecai was sitting at the king's gate. 20 But Esther had kept secret her family background and nationality just as Mordecai had told her to do, for she continued to follow Mordecai's instructions as she had done when he was bringing her up.
21 During the time Mordecai was sitting at the king's gate, Bigthana and Teresh, two of the king's officers who guarded the doorway, became angry and conspired to assassinate King Xerxes.

22 But Mordecai found out about the plot and told Queen Esther, who in turn reported it to the king, giving credit to Mordecai. 23 And when the report was investigated and found to be true, the two officials were hanged on a gallows. [c] All this was recorded in the book of the annals in the presence of the king.


Ian

 

[JM]

Maybe....

because Paul is the apostle of the Mystery, it's not part of prophecy, and therefore is not subject to Messanic Jewish revelation.

Just maybe...

the nature of the Church is heavenly, united in Christ, and therefore is not subject to an earthly reward.

Maybe, just maybe...

quote...the twelve were chosen by Christ on earth (Luke 6:13), at the time when Paul was raised up the twelve had known only Christ on earth, they had not even seen Him enter heaven at His ascension, for, "a cloud received Him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9).

and maybe...

I don't have a clue.

lol

 

[Georges]

why Paul's name isn't mentioned in the description of the City? Even those goof-ball disciples have a part.

Your first honest post. You finally reveal truthfully what you think of Paul and the disciples. Which also leads to your true feelings of the entire New Testament.

My first honest post?....I've never pulled punches....I don't trust Paul...sorry...IMO, he has promoted a brand of Christianity not consistent with Christ's Judaism or the Disciples Judaism....and, I've never hid my concerns about the authenticity of the NT....Sorry, I've always been up front with it...nice try though....

Paul and the Disciples...taught 2 different things...I'll go with James and the others of the Church at Jerusalem....


But you never did answer if you still hold to the Law and practice animal sacrifices.

It is very clear in Eze 40 - 46 that Messiah (the prince) will be conducting, yes....Animal sacrifices during the Messianic Kingdom period. Oops...I forgot Preterists tend to rip the OT out and throw it away....after all it's all been fulfilled. :

Why isn't Paul"s name mentioned.....? Good side step job on the distraction of attacking me personally....I hold the Apostles in high regard....That was a facetious statement...a general opinion of how Christianity views the importance of Paul over the Apostles...

I submit if Christianity in General, would have followed the practices and teachings of the Apostles rather than the teachings and whims of Paul, that we wouldn't be having the mess that Christianity has become today.

 

[Georges]

I suspect deliberate mischief from a distinctively non-evangelical cultist in the OP?

I don't think I'm a cultist...at least I don't belong to any one group...as far as I know..I'm the only one who has any of these types of questions...

Bible-believing, Spirit-led, born-again Christian readers can verify that Peter endored Paul's apostleship, even though Paul had had to rebuke Peter's hypocrisy in not eating with Gentile Christians when Jewish believers were present

Did Peter really endorse Paul? Did Peter write the letter that endorses Paul? I think that is still up in the air in Christian History debate. How is it that Peter a Torah observant Jewish Christian, and Paul an aparent (non torah promoter) Christian. Would Peter really support an apparent promotion of "non Torah observance". Plus, common...the Letter's and Act's are obviously Paul friendly...nothing on the other disciples.

Very likely Paul's boldness & truthfulness there is precisely why Peter did make sure to endorse Paul

As all the other apostles did in Acts

According to Paul's personal friend and biographer Luke....

The Mickey Mouse Monkey-round-er in this thread is its originator!

Heh heh heh.....good one...

Here's a link to his kinda suspect set of posts:-

http://www.christianforums.net/search.p ... or=Georges

stand by what I've written....until proven otherwise...

I'm kinda busy now, but another competent Bible teacher may feel led to correct his other shenanigans so that the unwary/unaware aren't deceived & led astray, OK?

Wow...another competent Bible teacher ....that must make you competent...I wish some competent Bible teacher like you would correct my shenanigans....I hate my shenanigans and need correction.... I'm willing to be convinced.....give it your best shot....
Ian

Ian......good one....

Why isn't Paul's name included in the description of New Jerusalem?

Instead of attacking me, try giving me a "competent" Bible teacher response......or if you can't, another will....

 

[JM]

This is a great question, the more I think on it, the more I need to know. I'm going to kick this question around and few forums and see what kind of a response I get.

Peace,

jm

 

[preterist]

But you never did answer if you still hold to the Law and practice animal sacrifices.

It is very clear in Eze 40 - 46 that Messiah (the prince) will be conducting, yes....Animal sacrifices during the Messianic Kingdom period. Oops...I forgot Preterists tend to rip the OT out and throw it away....after all it's all been fulfilled.

It an easy question, do you still practice the Law and perform animal sacrifices? I typed it slow this time.

EZE 40-46 speaks of those sacrifices being for sin atonement. Was Jesus not good enough for you?

Do you accept Jesus as the Messiah? If so, why? Don't quote anything from the "un-reliable" NT since you reject that.

Why isn't Paul"s name mentioned.....? Good side step job on the distraction of attacking me personally....

I don’t see Judas’ name mentioned either, nor James nor John. Did you want Paul’s name to show up in Revelation?

1Co 1:1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

No wonder you hate the New Testament, it sends your theology right down the toilet.

....I hold the Apostles in high regard

How did the apostles feel about Paul? Why would you hold them in high regard? What they taught is found in the NT.

I submit if Christianity in General, would have followed the practices and teachings of the Apostles rather than the teachings and whims of Paul, that we wouldn't be having the mess that Christianity has become today.

What mess? Salvation by Grace? Is this the mess you speak of? If the NT is unreliable then why accept any teaching of the Apostles? You just pick and choose which to believe.

Did Peter really endorse Paul? Did Peter write the letter that endorses Paul?

Did he write condemning Paul? Obvious answer isn’t it.

the Letter's and Act's are obviously Paul friendly...nothing on the other disciples

Why don’t you ask Luke. Perhaps there is a reason Acts doesn’t bash Paul. Ever consider the possibility Paul was inspired?

According to Paul's personal friend and biographer Luke....

Now Luke is a fraud. Nice.

 

[Georges]

This is a great question, the more I think on it, the more I need to know. I'm going to kick this question around and few forums and see what kind of a response I get.

Peace,

jm

It just dawned on me....I made the Paul connection with why the letters were written but never realized why the Great Apostle wasn't included at the end.....as far as I can see...I know why. Perhaps for the same reason Dan isn't included in the tribe list...

 

[Georges]

But you never did answer if you still hold to the Law and practice animal sacrifices.

It is very clear in Eze 40 - 46 that Messiah (the prince) will be conducting, yes....Animal sacrifices during the Messianic Kingdom period. Oops...I forgot Preterists tend to rip the OT out and throw it away....after all it's all been fulfilled.

It an easy question, do you still practice the Law and perform animal sacrifices? I typed it slow this time.

:-D Good one...let me reply slower in kind.....I missed the question the first time you posed it....sorry, I don't read every letter you type, my eyes would start hemoraging... Preterist...you make it too easy....

To answer your question, yes the Torah still applies...and no I do not practice animal sacrifice (not required of me as a God Fearer)....as I'm sure you know (not), the Temple is the only place where a sacrifice can be performed....it is however possible to perform a sacrifice in a portable tabernacle (ie. Moses' wilderness tabernacle) if all of the temple instruments are in place...Now, as soon a Temple is built in Jerusalem, there will be animal sacrifices again...The evidence is that the AC will stop them when he comes to power.

EZE 40-46 speaks of those sacrifices being for sin atonement. Was Jesus not good enough for you?

Jesus not good enough for me? My friend he is the Prince who presides over the sacrifices....in Eze. Jesus was a passover sacrifice, not an atonement sacrifice.....Know your Feast Days Sacrifices......it helps sort out the confusion.

Do you accept Jesus as the Messiah? If so, why? Don't quote anything from the "un-reliable" NT since you reject that.

He fits the criteria as Messiah ben Joseph....the suffering servant...Being a messiah doesn't have anything to do with a atoning sacrifice...There have been many messiah's....but only one THE Messiah. Jesus does fill the OT prophetic bill of candidacy. I don't completely disregard the NT...it must jive with the OT...simple as that.

[quote:36749]Why isn't Paul"s name mentioned.....? Good side step job on the distraction of attacking me personally....

I don’t see Judas’ name mentioned either, nor James nor John. Did you want Paul’s name to show up in Revelation?

I'm sorry.....You're right....How stupid of me. Since the foundation of New Jerusalem has 12 foundations each with the name of an Apostle, in my ignorance I assumed it would be the 12 that followed Jesus....Matthias replacing Judas of course...One of the other disciples must have been cut from the list to make room for Paul. Preterist...better stop here, you are beginning to look.......I won't say it.

1Co 1:1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

Self proclaimed....apostle...apparently....no one else witnessed that. Who in Corinth would deny that?

No wonder you hate the New Testament, it sends your theology right down the toilet.

I bet if I were in Australia, it would flush counter clockwise..... 8-)

....I hold the Apostles in high regard

How did the apostles feel about Paul?

They called him to Jerusalem twice to reprimand him. Paul preached non Torah observance while he was out in the field, and Torah observance when he was called to the carpet....of course they didn't like him.

Why would you hold them in high regard? What they taught is found in the NT.

Where?....and what part agrees with Paul.....certainly the Book of James does not....For your info...James was the President of the Church and greater than Paul....James was held in the highest regard, not Paul....and it's revisionist history to say otherwise...As I had said before...in regard to the NT, (and if it hasn't been found to be edited), if it Jives with the OT then it works...if not, then not.

I submit if Christianity in General, would have followed the practices and teachings of the Apostles rather than the teachings and whims of Paul, that we wouldn't be having the mess that Christianity has become today.

What mess? Salvation by Grace?

Ah yes, the easy way out....

Is this the mess you speak of?

The mess of turning a One True God into a trinity. Worshipping the trinity by means of a Religion that has a base in Judaism, but whose main apostle and teacher imposed his own Gnostic/Mystery beliefs to create his own sect of Judaism....Pauline Christianity.

Instead of worshiping God the way the 12 Apostles would have. As a One True God, who has a Son who is The Messiah...who would lead Israel into the Messianic Kingdom age. They also Worshiped the One True God by observing his statutes and commandments....and living by the example Jesus taught them....

If the NT is unreliable then why accept any teaching of the Apostles? You just pick and choose which to believe.

If it agrees with the OT (legit scripture) I have no problem with the NT...

Did Peter really endorse Paul? Did Peter write the letter that endorses Paul?

Did he write condemning Paul? Obvious answer isn’t it.

the Letter's and Act's are obviously Paul friendly...nothing on the other disciples

Why don’t you ask Luke. Perhaps there is a reason Acts doesn’t bash Paul. Ever consider the possibility Paul was inspired?

Did consider it until I studied the subject in depth...

According to Paul's personal friend and biographer Luke....

Now Luke is a fraud. Nice.

I said Luke paints a Paul friendly Acts....Where is the bio on the real Church of Christ...the Church of Jerusalem and the Real Acts of the Real Apostles.....? Paul needed the base of Judaism to promote his brand of Christianity....Luke recognizes that in his Paul bio.

[/quote:36749]

Want to try again....Why isn't Paul included? Please type slower as I'm trying to keep up with you....Are you the competent Bible teacher that Mr. V recommended?

 

[preterist]

To answer your question, yes the Torah still applies...and no I do not practice animal sacrifice (not required of me as a God Fearer)...

Based on what? Didn’t the OT God fearing Jews offer sacrifices?

as I'm sure you know (not), the Temple is the only place where a sacrifice can be performed....it is however possible to perform a sacrifice in a portable tabernacle (ie. Moses' wilderness tabernacle) if all of the temple instruments are in place...

So God said as long as there is a Temple or Tabernacle sacrifices are to be done, but if one can’t be found don’t worry about it?

...The evidence is that the AC will stop them when he comes to power.

AC? Doesn’t AC mean anti-Christ? Why are you using a NT term?

Jesus not good enough for me? My friend he is the Prince who presides over the sacrifices....in Eze. Jesus was a passover sacrifice, not an atonement sacrifice.....Know your Feast Days Sacrifices......it helps sort out the confusion.

So Jesus didn’t atone for anything?

He fits the criteria as Messiah ben Joseph..

How do you know? What do you base this on?

I don't completely disregard the NT...it must jive with the OT...simple as that.

No, you only accept that which “jives†with your interpretation of the OT.

You seem to accept James, so do you agree with his interpretation of Amos 5:11?

Act 15:13 And after they were silent, James answered, saying, Men, brothers, listen to me.
Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.
Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written,
Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,

I'm sorry.....You're right....How stupid of me. Since the foundation of New Jerusalem has 12 foundations each with the name of an Apostle, in my ignorance I assumed it would be the 12 that followed Jesus....Matthias replacing Judas of course

But you said it was the 12 Jesus picked, Matthias was not one of them. By your own criteria you only have 11. Ooops.

Self proclaimed....apostle...apparently....no one else witnessed that. Who in Corinth would deny that?

No-one, nor did anyone else except you. Lets see, who else denies the inspiration of Paul? Shall we start listing the cults?

How did the apostles feel about Paul?

They called him to Jerusalem twice to reprimand him.

Any proof?

For your info...James was the President of the Church and greater than Paul...

Really, any proof? President of the Church eh?

What mess? Salvation by Grace?

Ah yes, the easy way out....

So you deny salvation by Grace? Dumb question, of course you do.

The mess of turning a One True God into a trinity. Worshipping the trinity by means of a Religion that has a base in Judaism, but whose main apostle and teacher imposed his own Gnostic/Mystery beliefs to create his own sect of Judaism....Pauline Christianity.

Cult or heresy or both. Why are you on a Christian Forums board?

Instead of worshiping God the way the 12 Apostles would have. As a One True God, who has a Son who is The Messiah...who would lead Israel into the Messianic Kingdom age. They also Worshiped the One True God by observing his statutes and commandments....and living by the example Jesus taught them....

You mean as long as there was a Temple to observe the statutes and commandments. So how exactly is ones sins forgiven? And apparently Jesus failed in His duty to establish the Messianic age.

I said Luke paints a Paul friendly Acts....Where is the bio on the real Church of Christ...the Church of Jerusalem and the Real Acts of the Real Apostles.....? Paul needed the base of Judaism to promote his brand of Christianity....Luke recognizes that in his Paul bio.

Unbelievable is all I can say. You must believe you have Jewish roots to accept any of this garbage. What’s even more amusing is you use Thomas Ice as a source for your eschatology. Someone who would reject 90% of your beliefs as heresy. Also a man who bases most of his eschatology on Paul and the NT. Very amusing.


By the way, what New Covenant did Jesus establish?

 

[Vic C.]

:o

Hmm, this is getting interesting

"News at 11." 8-)

 

[John the Baptist]

The bumbling, stupid, keystone Apostles......couldn't figure out the Gospel of Christ until Paul straightened them out....

Ever wonder........

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

why Paul's name isn't mentioned in the description of the City? Even those goof-ball disciples have a part. My goodness, even those Christ killer Jews have Gates named after them....and the saintly apostle Paul....where is his part?

Could it be he ain't got one?

After all, in Rev 2-3, Christ does chastise the Churches that Paul had founded....after all didn't Paul did pave the way for antinomianism which lead the believers away from Messianic Judaism...

Maybe his part was taken away......

***********
Boy, it sure did take you a long time to tell us who you 'post' for!! Thanks, even if it was a tad bit late coming.
---John

 

[Georges]

To answer your question, yes the Torah still applies...and no I do not practice animal sacrifice (not required of me as a God Fearer)...

Based on what? Dedan’ta the OAT God fearing Jews offer sacrifices?

Do I have to do all of your research for you....A God Fearer was/is a Gentile who recognizes the God of Israel as The one and only God...The next step for a God Fearer was to become a proselyte...including baptism and circumcision...I should be charging you for the lessons.....

[quote:e76db]as I'm sure you know (not), the Temple is the only place where a sacrifice can be performed....it is however possible to perform a sacrifice in a portable tabernacle (ie. Moses' wilderness tabernacle) if all of the temple instruments are in place...

So God said as long as there is a Temple or Tabernacle sacrifices are to be done, but if one can’ta be found don’ta worry about it?

Yep....that's about it...until the Temple is rebuilt...as a matter of fact the Messianic Temple will be built by Messiah....sorry, I forgot you don't have an OAT..... :

...The evidence is that the AC will stop them when he comes to power.

AC? Dozen’ta AC mean anti-Christ? Why are you using a NT term?

Sorry, old habit....False Messiah...thanks for keeping me honest...as far as that goes, I should be using Jesus' Hebrew name....again an old habit...

Jesus not good enough for me? My friend he is the Prince who presides over the sacrifices....in Eze. Jesus was a passover sacrifice, not an atonement sacrifice.....Know your Feast Days Sacrifices......it helps sort out the confusion.

So Jesus Dedan’ta atone for anything?

No....did he need to? According to the OAT he didn't have to....If you wish, I have a colleague who has researched the subject thoroughly and after amassing all of the OAT passages concerning atonement, determines that God forgives man as he chooses....It is a very well put together thesis....Id be glad to email the pdf file to you for your review....He would also like to hear the critique.....

He fits the criteria as Messiah ben Joseph..

How do you know? What do you base this on?

The Jewish criteria for the Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant)....you can research that yourself....www.Jewishencyclopedia.com is a good place to start. Iim sure you can find info on http://www.wikipedia.com

I don't completely disregard the NT...it must jive with the OT...simple as that.

No, you only accept that which “jives†with your interpretation of the OAT.

As you wish.....

You seem to accept James, so do you agree with his interpretation of Amos 5:11?

I guess I do.....does Amos 5:11 have something to do with this dialogue? If you mean Acts 15:11....Peter is speaking, not James. Got to ask yourself.....is this true? Why would Peter (obviously a Torah observing Christian), make a statement like that? Most likely given his Jewishness, he didn't, and this was a Liken edit. Preterist, the OAT is the inspired word of God...the NT isn't (except for Revelation of course).

Act 15:13 And after they were silent, James answered, saying, Men, brothers, listen to me.
Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.

Yes...he dedit God called out Abraham....the Hebrew line comes through Isaac....

Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written,
Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,

Speaking of the Messianic Kingdom era Temple....

I'm sorry.....You're right....How stupid of me. Since the foundation of New Jerusalem has 12 foundations each with the name of an Apostle, in my ignorance I assumed it would be the 12 that followed Jesus....Matthias replacing Judas of course

But you said it was the 12 Jesus picked, Matthias was not one of them. By your own criteria you only have 11. Oops.

Are you insane? I do think that is a Preterist requirement if Iim not mistaken....With all due respect of course....

Self proclaimed....apostle...apparently....no one else witnessed that. Who in Corinth would deny that?

No-one, nor did anyone else except you. Lets see, who else denies the inspiration of Paul? Shall we start listing the cults?

So?....Cults...ooh....Please... :roll: :-D

How did the apostles feel about Paul?

They called him to Jerusalem twice to reprimand him.

Any proof?

Acts 15 and Acts 21.......

For your info...James was the President of the Church and greater than Paul...

Really, any proof? President of the Church eh?

Again...Are you insane? With all due respect of course.....this is common knowledge....From the Jewishencylopedia.com article on James. Now Preterist, I know you have a short attention span so I'll highlight the points of interest

Brother of Jesus; also called James the Just. James is mentioned as the first among the brothers of Jesus, the others being Joses, Simon, and Judas (Matt. xiii. 55; Mark vi. 3), all of whom were, according to Luke ii. 7, younger than Jesus. Neither James nor any of the other brothers believed in the miraculous powers of Jesus (John vii. 5; Matt. xii. 47 et seq.; Mark iii. 31). But after the crucifixion James, the brother of Jesus, is said by Paul to have seen the risen Jesus in a vision after Peter, the twelve, and the five hundred had seen him (I Cor. xv. 7); and when Paul went to Jerusalem to defend his claim to the assumed apostleship to the heathen, James was the head of the Church (Gal. i. 19; ii. 9, 12; Acts xii. 17, xv. 13, xxi. 18). According to Clement of Rome, quoted by Eusebius ("Hist. Eccl." ii. 1), James, surnamed "the Just" on account of his great virtue, was the first bishop of the Church elected at Jerusalem. About his martyrdom Clement writes that" he was cast from a wing of the Temple and beaten to death with a fuller's club." Somewhat differently Josephus writes: "The younger Anan, a high priest belonging to the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, had James, the brother of Jesus, the so-called 'Christ,' together with some of his companions, brought before the Sanhedrin on the charge of having broken the Law, and had them delivered over to be stoned. This act of Anan caused indignation among the citizens best known for their fairness and loyalty" ("Ant." xx. 9, § 1). Hegesippus, quoted by Eusebius (l.c. ii. 23), gives the following description of James:

"James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the Apostles. He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, nor did he anoint himself with oil or use any [warm] bath. He alone was permitted to enter the Holy Place, for he wore not woolen, but linen garments; he was in the habit of entering alone into the Temple, and was frequently found upon his knees praying for forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard as those of a camel. . . . Because of his exceeding great justice ["Ẓaddiḳut"] he was called 'the Just' ["Ya'aḳob Ḳobal 'Am" = "Jacob, the bulwark of the people"] and 'Ẓaddiḳ Yesod 'Olam' [= "the righteous are the foundation of the world "; Prov. x. 25, Hebr.]. Now, when some of the seven sects which existed among the people [the Sadducees] asked him: 'What is the gate of salvation?' ["sha'ar ha-yeshu'ah"; comp. Lev. R. xxx.; Ps. cxviii. 20; for which some copyist wrote "sha'ar Yeshua'" = "the gate of Jesus "] he replied that it was the Messiah. James's words were understood to refer to Jesus, and led many to believe in him. . . . The Scribes and the Pharisees, fearing lest the people would all be led over to the belief in Jesus, asked James to place himself upon a wing of the Temple and address the people assembled there on account of the Passover, and persuade them not to be led astray.

"Whereupon James said: 'Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus the Son of Man? He sitteth in heaven at the right hand of great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.' And when many cried 'Hosannah to the Son of David,' the Scribes and Pharisees cast him down and stoned him. And James before dying said: 'Lord, God, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do' [the words ascribed to Jesus; Luke xxiii. 34]. And one of the Rechabites cried out: 'Cease! What do ye? The just one prayeth for you.' Then one of the crowd, a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. Thus he suffered martyrdom; they buried him on the spot by the Temple where his monument still remains. Immediately after this, Vespasian besieged them."

What mess? Salvation by Grace?

Ah yes, the easy way out....

So you deny salvation by Grace? Dumb question, of course you do.

The mess of turning a One True God into a trinity. Worshipping the trinity by means of a Religion that has a base in Judaism, but whose main apostle and teacher imposed his own Gnostic/Mystery beliefs to create his own sect of Judaism....Pauline Christianity.

Cult or heresy or both. Why are you on a Christian Forums board?

Cultic...if you say so....Heresy....it's only heresy if I don't agree with your theology, so that really doesn't matter to me...your theology is wrong...so maybe your theology is heresy....And, I'm on the forums to sharpen my understanding of Bible prophecy (firstly) and theology (secondly) by debating with reasonable folks...it forces me to study, research and present a good debate...I've got a lot of people out to take me down because of my unorthodox views....A lot of eyes looking for the slightest mistake they can use....

Instead of worshiping God the way the 12 Apostles would have. As a One True God, who has a Son who is The Messiah...who would lead Israel into the Messianic Kingdom age. They also Worshiped the One True God by observing his statutes and commandments....and living by the example Jesus taught them....

You mean as long as there was a Temple to observe the statutes and commandments. So how exactly is ones sins forgiven?

Typical Preterist tactic...twist the words trying to entrap....You don't need a Temple present to obey God's commandments....And a persons sins are forgiven by a sincere and contrite repentance as they always have been....As I had mentioned, my colleague breaks this down in terms even you can grasp....with all due respect of course....I be glad to send it to you for your critique....

And apparently Jesus failed in His duty to establish the Messianic age.

That's because the 7000th year hasn't been reached yet....but it is fast approaching....

I said Luke paints a Paul friendly Acts....Where is the bio on the real Church of Christ...the Church of Jerusalem and the Real Acts of the Real Apostles.....? Paul needed the base of Judaism to promote his brand of Christianity....Luke recognizes that in his Paul bio.

Unbelievable is all I can say. You must believe you have Jewish roots to accept any of this garbage.

No...I believe I indicated it would help to know the Jewish roots of Christianity to be able to understand any of this garbage....

What’s even more amusing is you use Thomas Ice as a source for your eschatology. Someone who would reject 90% of your beliefs as heresy. Also a man who bases most of his eschatology on Paul and the NT. Very amusing.

Back to that.....Again as I had said, many times now....you are very good (as most preterists are) at twisting words to achieve the means....I will say it for the gazillionth time....I use Jewish eschatology almost exclusively....

Here is the http://www.Jewishencylopedia.com article on Eschatology....live it, learn it, be it.....

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... schatology

By the way, what New Covenant did Jesus establish?

A here now, but not yet Covenant...Begun at the Last (passover) Seder, and fully realized in the future Messianic Kingdom....

[/quote:e76db]

Pret....I should be charging you for the lesson... :-D

 

[Georges]

:o

Hmm, this is getting interesting

"News at 11." 8-)

Like a soap opera......Pret is twisting my words...and making bogus statements....

I'm tired of untwisting the twisting....

end of the debate for me....on to other things...

 

[Georges]

The bumbling, stupid, keystone Apostles......couldn't figure out the Gospel of Christ until Paul straightened them out....

Ever wonder........

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

why Paul's name isn't mentioned in the description of the City? Even those goof-ball disciples have a part. My goodness, even those Christ killer Jews have Gates named after them....and the saintly apostle Paul....where is his part?

Could it be he ain't got one?

After all, in Rev 2-3, Christ does chastise the Churches that Paul had founded....after all didn't Paul did pave the way for antinomianism which lead the believers away from Messianic Judaism...

Maybe his part was taken away......

***********
Boy, it sure did take you a long time to tell us who you 'post' for!! Thanks, even if it was a tad bit late coming.
---John

John, I will respond to you on this because you put your two cents in....

All I can say in reply....is once again....What are you talking about? :silly:

 

[John the Baptist]

---John here: With just a simple 'reposted' repeat for all of this garbage!

The guy believes 1/2 of Eccl. 1:9 & not even Ecclesiastes 3:15 Lord! About history in the future repeating itself,?? just not your Inspired Word of Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 of .. 'The thing hath been (past/tense!) [is that which shall be]; and that which [is done] is that which [shall be done:] and there is [no new thing under the sun.]

There is no wonder we see Matthew 23:38!

 

[preterist]

Do I have to do all of your research for you....A God Fearer was/is a Gentile who recognizes the God of Israel as The one and only God...

Where does the OT teach that sacrifices are not important if there is no Temple?

Yep....that's about it...until the Temple is rebuilt...as a matter of fact the Messianic Temple will be built by Messiah....sorry, I forgot you don't have an OAT.....

What is an OAT?

Sorry, old habit....False Messiah...thanks for keeping me honest...as far as that goes, I should be using Jesus' Hebrew name....again an old habit...

I am still trying to figure out why you use the name of Jesus at all. More on this later.

So Jesus Dedan’ta atone for anything?

No....did he need to? According to the OAT he didn't have to....If you wish, I have a colleague who has researched the subject thoroughly and after amassing all of the OAT passages concerning atonement, determines that.It is a very well put together thesis....Id be glad to email the pdf file to you for your review....He would also like to hear the critique.....

So the Passover Lamb’s blood didn’t need to be shed?

God forgives man as he chooses...

Hey we agree, glad we are both Calvinists. Of course I also believe His salvation is carried out through the sacrificial blood of Jesus.

Id be glad to email the pdf file to you for your review....He would also like to hear the critique..

More web-site theology. I’ll pass, any questions I had for Him would concern the words of Jesus. That’s when he would give me the line, â€Âwell that part of the NT was edited by people with an agendaâ€Â.

Here is the http://www.Jewishencylopedia.com article on Eschatology....live it, learn it, be it.....

Are there any errors in the Jewish Encyclopedia?

The Jewish criteria for the Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering servant)....you can research that yourself....www.Jewishencyclopedia.com is a good place to start. Iim sure you can find info on http://www.wikipedia.com

Still won’t answer the question, how do you know Jesus is this Messiah? How do you know He fulfilled any of these OT prophecies?

you seem to accept James, so do you agree with his interpretation of Amos 5:11?

I guess I do.....does Amos 5:11 have something to do with this dialogue?

Sorry, should have been Amos 9:11

If you mean Acts 15:11....Peter is speaking, not James.

No, James is speaking:

Act 15:13 And after they were silent, James answered, saying, Men, brothers, listen to me.

James is quoting from Amos and applying this prophecy to gentiles coming into the Church.

Why would Peter (obviously a Torah observing Christian), make a statement like that? Most likely given his Jewishness, he didn't, and this was a Liken edit

Here we go again. Is it possible that Jews had a misunderstanding of the true meaning of certain OT prophecies? They missed their own Messiah because of their misunderstanding of “jewish eschatologyâ€Â. Yet you act as if they knew and understood everything. So when a NT writer comments on an OT passage you throw it out and cry “citizens arrest, citizens arrest†if it doesn’t “jive†with what some Jewish encyclopedia says. Think about what you are doing. You are taking the words of people who rejected their own Messiah over the words of the NT writers.

Preterist, the OAT is the inspired word of God...the NT isn't (except for Revelation of course).

Why isn’t Revelation also the work of editors? Your logic is so inconsistent. So John is inspired when he writes Revelation but not when he wrote the other books?

Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written,
Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,

Speaking of the Messianic Kingdom era Temple....

As I noted earlier, not according to your hero James.

But you said it was the 12 Jesus picked, Matthias was not one of them. By your own criteria you only have 11. Oops.

Are you insane? I do think that is a Preterist requirement if Iim not mistaken

What is a requirement, 12? If so Paul is the 12th. Jesus did not pick Mattias, but he did pick Paul.

They called him to Jerusalem twice to reprimand him.

Any proof?

Acts 15 and Acts 21.......

Any editing of the NT is being done by you, not Luke. Please everyone read Acts 15 and 21 and see if the story that George is spewing lines up with scripture.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,
Act 15:17 so those men who are left might seek after the Lord, and all the nations on whom My name has been called, says the Lord, who does all these things."

Act 15:22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men from them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; Judas, whose last name was Barsabas; and Silas, chief men among the brothers.

Quite a reprimand.

Acts 21:

Act 21:13 Then Paul answered, What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul went willingly to Jerusalem, he was not summoned for reprimand. He was going to be beaten by your heros.

Act 21:17 And we being in Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly.

Act 21:32 He immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them. And seeing the chiliarch and the soldiers, they quit beating Paul.

You enjoy that beating Paul took?

So where exactly are you getting your belief that Paul was being summoned for reprimand?

Really, any proof? President of the Church eh?

Again...Are you insane? With all due respect of course.....this is common knowledge....From the Jewishencylopedia.com article on James. Now Preterist, I know you have a short attention span so I'll highlight the points of interest

Well I didn’t see anywhere where he was referred to as president of the Church. But I did find this:

"Whereupon James said: 'Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus the Son of Man? He sitteth in heaven at the right hand of great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.'

What do you think “about to come†means? 2000 years or so?

....A lot of eyes looking for the slightest mistake they can use....

Yea, I think denying the inspiration of the NT writers might fall under “slightest mistakeâ€Â. I really don’t think there are that many people observing your every move. I continue with this only for my own amusement.

And a persons sins are forgiven by a sincere and contrite repentance as they always have been

So Jesus was not needed for salvation, correct?

As I had mentioned, my colleague breaks this down in terms even you can grasp....with all due respect of course....I be glad to send it to you for your critique....

Can’t you? But again, I would actually want to quote the Messiah and I’m sure that is not allowed with your guru.

That's because the 7000th year hasn't been reached yet....but it is fast approaching....

Very good, so when the 7000th year (whenever that is) comes and goes your view crumbles correct? As a Preterist I have all the time in the world so I’ll be watching for this day.. When is this 7000th year by the way? Does it keep changing as time goes by? It should be right around this time shouldn’t it?

By the way, what New Covenant did Jesus establish?

A here now, but not yet Covenant...Begun at the Last (passover) Seder, and fully realized in the future Messianic Kingdom....

Back to Thomas Ice I see. You’ve come full circle. Why do you believe Jesus instituted a New Covenant?

 

[Georges]

Sorry about last night's post....I usually do spell check and just click on "correct"....went back and looked at the post and see that spell checker made it worse than the original....Sorry about that....I'm usually more careful than that....