Post-Trib Model Failure: Matthew 24:29 "After the tribulation..."

[NJBeliever]

Post Trib Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After The Tribulation..."

I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

These are all very important identifiers. Verse 29 is one of the few verses where Jesus gives very specific, detailed signs to know when something is going to take place. So where do we see these signs, ALL taking place at one time?? The Post-Trib model compels its adherents to see this happening presumably at the 7th Trumpet:

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I am not going to take the time to evaluate this passage as it is clearly NOT containing any of the signs spoken of in Matthew 24:29.

The other common location for the Post-Trib rapture would be at the 7th vial:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ok, so once again, we do not see ANY of the 4 signs Jesus specifically stated would happen "after the tribulation." So where are they??

Once again, we can look to the 6th Seal, where the Rapture takes place:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.



21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



Here we see a reference to the "hosts of the high ones" of Heaven being shaken. These are "powers" of Heaven Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:29. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "powers" are just another name for Fallen angelic beings. They are going to be shaken up at the 6th Seal.


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Here we see yet another reference to the "host of Heaven" being shaken. These are angelic beings. And we see the same prophetic language of the figs falling from the fig tree that is used at the 6th Seal.


These passages make it clear that the Jesus was confirming their fulfillment when discussing Matthew 24:29.

So what about the term "tribulation" in verse 29?? Doesn't Jesus reference it? To find the answer, we have to look at Luke 21. Luke 21 fills in several gaps to its parallel passages Mark 13 and Matthew 24:

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But BEFORE all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

This is the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of. He clearly identifies 3 things that will take place before the end times: false christs, wars and rumors of wars and persecution of the saints. All these things take place BEFORE the end of the world Great Tribulation even starts. And again, looking at the seals, this is exactly what we see taking place before the Day of The Lord and the rapture of the 6th Seal. Wars and rumors of wars, false christs and persecution of the saints (5th Seal) all happens before the 6th Seal rapture.

With basic Biblical scrutiny it is impossible to place the signs that Jesus delineates in Matthew 24:29 to any other part of Revelation but the 6th seal. It is abundantly obvious that Jesus is referring to this time. The Post-trib model fails here because it attributes verse 29 to the end of the Great Tribulation (and thus the rapture) when it is clearly not. It is at the 6th Seal. And that is when the Day of The Lord begins and God pours His wrath out on the heathen world. But Jesus leaves a final word of encouragement:

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (emphasis added)

 

[Scotth1960]

Friend, It is best to avoid reading Revelation. Too many well-meaning souls try to understand it, and fail. Since Enoch and Elijah have not returned from heaven, it seems a moot point to try and make it apply to our times and modern Israel. The Jews obviously aren't converting in mass numbers to Jesus Christ. There is a warning in Revelation against misinterpreting this book. It is better to leave the mystery to God Himself as history unfolds into God's future. No man knows the day nor the hour when these things in Revelation are yet to be fulfilled. In Erie PA Scott H.
:nod

 

[Scotth1960]

Post Trib Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After The Tribulation..."

I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

These are all very important identifiers. Verse 29 is one of the few verses where Jesus gives very specific, detailed signs to know when something is going to take place. So where do we see these signs, ALL taking place at one time?? The Post-Trib model compels its adherents to see this happening presumably at the 7th Trumpet:

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I am not going to take the time to evaluate this passage as it is clearly NOT containing any of the signs spoken of in Matthew 24:29.

The other common location for the Post-Trib rapture would be at the 7th vial:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ok, so once again, we do not see ANY of the 4 signs Jesus specifically stated would happen "after the tribulation." So where are they??

Once again, we can look to the 6th Seal, where the Rapture takes place:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.



21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



Here we see a reference to the "hosts of the high ones" of Heaven being shaken. These are "powers" of Heaven Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:29. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "powers" are just another name for Fallen angelic beings. They are going to be shaken up at the 6th Seal.


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Here we see yet another reference to the "host of Heaven" being shaken. These are angelic beings. And we see the same prophetic language of the figs falling from the fig tree that is used at the 6th Seal.


These passages make it clear that the Jesus was confirming their fulfillment when discussing Matthew 24:29.

So what about the term "tribulation" in verse 29?? Doesn't Jesus reference it? To find the answer, we have to look at Luke 21. Luke 21 fills in several gaps to its parallel passages Mark 13 and Matthew 24:

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But BEFORE all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

This is the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of. He clearly identifies 3 things that will take place before the end times: false christs, wars and rumors of wars and persecution of the saints. All these things take place BEFORE the end of the world Great Tribulation even starts. And again, looking at the seals, this is exactly what we see taking place before the Day of The Lord and the rapture of the 6th Seal. Wars and rumors of wars, false christs and persecution of the saints (5th Seal) all happens before the 6th Seal rapture.

With basic Biblical scrutiny it is impossible to place the signs that Jesus delineates in Matthew 24:29 to any other part of Revelation but the 6th seal. It is abundantly obvious that Jesus is referring to this time. The Post-trib model fails here because it attributes verse 29 to the end of the Great Tribulation (and thus the rapture) when it is clearly not. It is at the 6th Seal. And that is when the Day of The Lord begins and God pours His wrath out on the heathen world. But Jesus leaves a final word of encouragement:

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (emphasis added)

Friend, Good! I see you did not try to quote the book of Revelation. Our knowledge of that book should be minimal, because there is a warning against misinterpreting this book. Only chapters 1 through 3 seem at all clear. The rest is problematic. In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[Sam21]

Just do not be dogmatic about speculations in Revelation. It is hard to make it all make sense. The best I have come up with is to read it in order just like you would any other story with the exception that in chapters 12 and 18 there are definite pauses in the order of events while specific things are explained.
Part of the trouble is that people have defined certain things that are not actually defined in that way in the bible. First, the tribulation that Jesus described contains what is happening today except very intense(wars, famine,disease,earthquakes,persecution of christians and jews). People have chosen to call this period of time the wrath of God and they try to place it in Revelation and it does not fit. It appears that the horsemen in Rev are the tribulation that Jesus described and that is followed by the signs of the heavens shaken and Christ return followed by the church in Heaven, so that part is not that hard to see,now what follows is not that easy to understand.

 

[reba]

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?


Often wondered if this kind of Moon and Stars is the same as in The Revelation

 

[Scotth1960]

Just do not be dogmatic about speculations in Revelation. It is hard to make it all make sense. The best I have come up with is to read it in order just like you would any other story with the exception that in chapters 12 and 18 there are definite pauses in the order of events while specific things are explained.
Part of the trouble is that people have defined certain things that are not actually defined in that way in the bible. First, the tribulation that Jesus described contains what is happening today except very intense(wars, famine,disease,earthquakes,persecution of christians and jews). People have chosen to call this period of time the wrath of God and they try to place it in Revelation and it does not fit. It appears that the horsemen in Rev are the tribulation that Jesus described and that is followed by the signs of the heavens shaken and Christ return followed by the church in Heaven, so that part is not that hard to see,now what follows is not that easy to understand.

Dear Sam, AMEN. Scott in Erie PA

 

[guysmith]

Hello reba,

You stated:

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Gen 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?


Often wondered if this kind of Moon and Stars is the same as in The Revelation

My response: No. Bible prophecy contains several periods of time. God uses catchphrases to help us identify these periods of time. In this case, He uses these "signs" in the heavens repeatedly to identify at period of time which takes place after the Tribulation period......

Matthew 24: 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

......but before the "day of the Lord.

Joel 2: 30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Guy

 

[jasoncran]

Just do not be dogmatic about speculations in Revelation. It is hard to make it all make sense. The best I have come up with is to read it in order just like you would any other story with the exception that in chapters 12 and 18 there are definite pauses in the order of events while specific things are explained.
Part of the trouble is that people have defined certain things that are not actually defined in that way in the bible. First, the tribulation that Jesus described contains what is happening today except very intense(wars, famine,disease,earthquakes,persecution of christians and jews). People have chosen to call this period of time the wrath of God and they try to place it in Revelation and it does not fit. It appears that the horsemen in Rev are the tribulation that Jesus described and that is followed by the signs of the heavens shaken and Christ return followed by the church in Heaven, so that part is not that hard to see,now what follows is not that easy to understand.

show me a baseline reference to to which we can compare these signs?

wars were very common in rome. so where earthquakes(mt.aetna,vesevuis, and others were active in those days and some still are) famine was as well.

 

[NJBeliever]

Just bumping for any replies to the OP. God bless.

 

[reba]

Thanks for the reply Guy.

 

[warhorse]

Post Trib Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After The Tribulation..."

I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

These are all very important identifiers. Verse 29 is one of the few verses where Jesus gives very specific, detailed signs to know when something is going to take place. So where do we see these signs, ALL taking place at one time?? The Post-Trib model compels its adherents to see this happening presumably at the 7th Trumpet:

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I am not going to take the time to evaluate this passage as it is clearly NOT containing any of the signs spoken of in Matthew 24:29.

The other common location for the Post-Trib rapture would be at the 7th vial:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ok, so once again, we do not see ANY of the 4 signs Jesus specifically stated would happen "after the tribulation." So where are they??

Once again, we can look to the 6th Seal, where the Rapture takes place:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.



21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



Here we see a reference to the "hosts of the high ones" of Heaven being shaken. These are "powers" of Heaven Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:29. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "powers" are just another name for Fallen angelic beings. They are going to be shaken up at the 6th Seal.


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Here we see yet another reference to the "host of Heaven" being shaken. These are angelic beings. And we see the same prophetic language of the figs falling from the fig tree that is used at the 6th Seal.


These passages make it clear that the Jesus was confirming their fulfillment when discussing Matthew 24:29.

So what about the term "tribulation" in verse 29?? Doesn't Jesus reference it? To find the answer, we have to look at Luke 21. Luke 21 fills in several gaps to its parallel passages Mark 13 and Matthew 24:

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But BEFORE all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

This is the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of. He clearly identifies 3 things that will take place before the end times: false christs, wars and rumors of wars and persecution of the saints. All these things take place BEFORE the end of the world Great Tribulation even starts. And again, looking at the seals, this is exactly what we see taking place before the Day of The Lord and the rapture of the 6th Seal. Wars and rumors of wars, false christs and persecution of the saints (5th Seal) all happens before the 6th Seal rapture.

With basic Biblical scrutiny it is impossible to place the signs that Jesus delineates in Matthew 24:29 to any other part of Revelation but the 6th seal. It is abundantly obvious that Jesus is referring to this time. The Post-trib model fails here because it attributes verse 29 to the end of the Great Tribulation (and thus the rapture) when it is clearly not. It is at the 6th Seal. And that is when the Day of The Lord begins and God pours His wrath out on the heathen world. But Jesus leaves a final word of encouragement:

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (emphasis added)

lol, thanks you have done a wonderful job of proving the post trib position.
You are assuming that the tribulation is the wrath of God its not. the tribulation is the persecution of the church and after 47 million christions have been martered for there faith it is still going strong. God has done a great Job of defining his wrath for himself with the vials.