Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem

[Eventide]

This is one of the most misunderstood texts in the Bible.

Note this from John 18:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)â€

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

I will have to get back to you on Revelation 11

Oh, it's the huge translation issue which the Holy Spirit of God cannot overcome.. and we must depend upon the amillennialists to explain to us that this present evil world is the kingdom of God, and that Satan is bound.. and that the resurrection is past already...etc etc etc...

Nonsense Drew...

 

[Eventide]

You have not answered my question. I will ask it again:

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Can you explain how Jesus has already been given authority on earth, and yet how it is that his Kingdom is not "presently on earth"?

DREW, Christ having all authority on earth does not mandate that His kingdom is on earth.. and the scriptures plainly state that it's not.. that satan is the god of this world, that he blinds the minds of those who believe not the gospel.. that we wrestle against the RULERS of the darkness of this world..

Ignore it if you must..

I'll await your response to Rev 11..

 

[Drew]

If this present evil world is Christ's kingdom on earth, then why does He call men OUT OF THE WORLD and to be separate from it..? Why does Paul tell Christians to set their affections on things above, and not on the things on earth..?

Why Drew... if it's His kingdom on earth, then why would He do that ?

Clearly, Jesus occasionally uses the term "the world" as a way of referring to those elements of the "world" that are not co-operating with the kingdom of God, which Jesus has already initiated as this statement:

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you

Jesus is instructing His followers to leave the "world" that has not yet accepted that Jesus is King. And as for this idea of setting affections "on the world above", this does not force us to deny Jesus' present Kingship on earth - something that is otherwise clearly establishebd my many texts. Instead, it can understood thus: "The Kingdom of God has been initiated on earth by Jesus. However, its principle originate from above, so look above to get access to these principles."

 

[Drew]

DREW, Christ having all authority on earth does not mandate that His kingdom is on earth..

I am afraid that it does.

A person who has all authority on earth is, of course, "king" of earth.

Imagine if Barak Obama said this:

"All authority in the United States has been given to me"

You are trying to then suggest that He is not saying that He is President or that He has no "political" or governmental authority in the United States.

A person who has all authority "on earth" is, by definition the "king" of chief governing official for earth.

and the scriptures plainly state that it's not.. that satan is the god of this world, that he blinds the minds of those who believe not the gospel.. that we wrestle against the RULERS of the darkness of this world..

Ignore it if you must..

I am ignoring nothing. I agree that there is a "god" of this world that is someone other than Jesus, but there are so many texts - and trust me, I have only just begun - that make it clear that Jesus is a presently seated king.

 

[Eventide]

I am afraid that it does.

A person who has all authority on earth is, of course, "king" of earth.

Imagine if Barak Obama said this:

"All authority in the United States has been given to me"

You are trying to then suggest that He is not saying that He is President or that He has no "political" or governmental authority in the United States.

A person who has all authority "on earth" is, by definition the "king" of chief governing official for earth.


I am ignoring nothing. I agree that there is a "god" of this world that is someone other than Jesus, but there are so many texts - and trust me, I have only just begun - that make it clear that Jesus is a presently seated king.

Well then believe what you will... tons of people believe amillennialism.. and that the church is Israel.. etc etc.. nothing new here.. enjoy.

 

[Drew]

Oh, it's the huge translation issue which the Holy Spirit of God cannot overcome.. and we must depend upon the amillennialists to explain to us that this present evil world is the kingdom of God, and that Satan is bound.. and that the resurrection is past already...etc etc etc...

Nonsense Drew...

You are simply not engaging my argument.

 

[Drew]

Well then believe what you will... tons of people believe amillennialism.. and that the church is Israel.. etc etc.. nothing new here.. enjoy.

You are not answering the question. How is it that Jesus has already been given all authority on earth and is not a "governor" or "king"?

 

[Eventide]

I am ignoring nothing. I agree that there is a "god" of this world that is someone other than Jesus, but there are so many texts - and trust me, I have only just begun - that make it clear that Jesus is a presently seated king.

Drew once again... nobody has said that Jesus is not a 'seated' king.. He's the King of kings.. and He's waiting til His enemies be made His footstool... while He is calling men out of this present evil world.. and continues to build His church...

And of course then there's the teaching that the church is Israel yada yada yada.. lol..

 

[Drew]

And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power

When does this happen? At the resurrection of course.

 

[Eventide]

You are not answering the question. How is it that Jesus has already been given all authority on earth and is not a "governor" or "king"?

Because He's been given ALL THINGS of His Father.. and He's waiting til His enemies are made His footstool.. while the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD have their way... and as mentioned (and what you haven't responded to yet).. this shall be the case until Rev 11 is fulfilled and the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD are BECOME the KINGDOMS of our God and of HIS CHRIST.

 

[Eventide]

You are simply not engaging my argument.

I don't engage in arguments concerning the word of God having a HUGE TRANSLATION issue..

 

[Drew]

Drew once again... nobody has said that Jesus is not a 'seated' king.. He's the King of kings.. and He's waiting til His enemies be made His footstool...

You appear to want it both ways - you agree that Jesus is a king, but deny that He is king on earth, even though it appears that Jesus believes that He already has all authority on earth.

And in respecting to "waiting for enemies to be made a footstool", I have already addressed at length in post 12 - Paul believes that Jesus will be King during the time that enemies are in the process of being defeated. So the fact that there is evil and sin in the world does not mean Jesus is not yet King.

 

[Drew]

I don't engage in arguments concerning the word of God having a HUGE TRANSLATION issue..

That's unfortunate. I suggest that any reader who is on "the fence", or is otherwise open-minded about this issue, will see this as refusal to engage a clear argument that challenges your position.

The fact is this: a number of translations render the "my kingdom is not of this world" as "my kingdom is not from this world". And I have argued why I think this latter translation is more "correct".

I suggest that you cannot simply ignore this and expect to be seen as responsibly supporting your position.

Likewise, I need to engage all your arguments, including Rev 11, which I hope to get to eventually.

 

[Eventide]

You appear to want it both ways - you agree that Jesus is a king, but deny that He is king on earth, even though it appears that Jesus believes that He already has all authority on earth.

And in respecting to "waiting for enemies to be made a footstool", I have already addressed at length in post 12 - Paul believes that Jesus will be King during the time that enemies are in the process of being defeated. So the fact that there is evil and sin in the world does not mean Jesus is not yet King.

Whatever Drew.. I've told you at least 3 times already that Jesus IS KING of kings.. and yet you keep telling me that He's KING..

Drew, if you wish to believe that THIS PRESENT EVIL world is God's kingdom on earth.. then that's fine.. multitudes do.. and multitudes believe that the church is Israel.. that Rev 20 has already happened.. etc etc etc.. so what, are you going to try and convince me that this present evil world is the kingdom of God.. don't bother.. imo it's sheer nonsense.

 

[Eventide]

Likewise, I need to engage all your arguments, including Rev 11, which I hope to get to eventually.

Well go ahead then, what's stopping you..

Are you going to tell me that it's already fulfilled...?

YOU MUST tell me that in order for YOUR present position to be true.. right..? Isn't that your argument here, that the kingdoms of this world are ALREADY the kingdoms of God and of His Christ..?

 

[Drew]

Because He's been given ALL THINGS of His Father.. and He's waiting til His enemies are made His footstool.. while the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD have their way... and as mentioned (and what you haven't responded to yet).. this shall be the case until Rev 11 is fulfilled and the KINGDOMS of THIS WORLD are BECOME the KINGDOMS of our God and of HIS CHRIST.

I agree that I need to look at Rev 11.

But I politely suggest that if Jesus has already been given all authority on earth, - and He clearly has - this, by definition, places Him in the "King" role.

Can you explain how someone who has "all authority on earth" would not be understood to be "King" of earth?

Who is King, if it is someone other than the person with all authority? Whoever, that person is, he must have zero authority since Jesus clearly has it all.

How can a person (or being) with zero authority on earth be "King" of earth?

 

[Drew]

Well go ahead then, what's stopping you..

Are you going to tell me that it's already fulfilled...?

YOU MUST tell me that in order for YOUR present position to be true.. right..? Isn't that your argument here, that the kingdoms of this world are ALREADY the kingdoms of God and of His Christ..?

I do not know what I will conclude re Rev 11. But if that text "proves" that Jesus is not presently King, my faith in the inerrancy of Scripture will be shaken, since then we would have a number of texts, including Matthew 28 and Acts 2 (you have yet to respond to that argument) placing Jesus in the role of presently seated king of the earth, and Revelation 11 suggesting otherwise.

By the way, I never said that God was presently king, I said that Jesus was presently king. 1 Corinthians 15 has Jesus "handing over" the kingdom to God at some point in the future.

 

[Drew]

Whatever Drew.. I've told you at least 3 times already that Jesus IS KING of kings.. and yet you keep telling me that He's KING..

I politely suggest you are evading the implications of Matthew 28 - you have yet to explain how someone who has already been given all authority on earth is not "king".

Drew, if you wish to believe that THIS PRESENT EVIL world is God's kingdom on earth.. then that's fine.. multitudes do.. and multitudes believe that the church is Israel.. that Rev 20 has already happened.. etc etc etc.. so what, are you going to try and convince me that this present evil world is the kingdom of God.. don't bother.. imo it's sheer nonsense.

Its not a question of what I "want" to believe. There are just so many texts - and again, I have just begun my treatment of themn - that place Jesus in the role of a presently seated king, that I have to take them seriously.

And I have already argued from 1 Cor 15 how Paul sees that Jesus being King is entirely compatible with the "evil" we still see in the world.

 

[Asyncritus]

Let me add my two pence worth here.

1 Heaven cannot have 2 Kings. The Almighty sits on the throne, and Jesus is at His right hand. Two kings of heaven at the same time is insupportable.

2 The point about all authority being given to Him in heaven and earth is easily understandable, thus:

In heaven:

The angels bow down to Him:

Heb 1.6 And again, when he brings in the first-begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

On earth:

Lu 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

This clearly means he received the right to kingship over the earth, but it has certainly not happened yet, since He hasn't returned.

Dan 2.44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

It hasn't happened yet - or Jesus is doing a singularly lousy job.

Rev 11.15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Is a vision of the establishment of the kingdom, which has clearly not come to pass as yet, and could not have been in AD65 or whenever the Revelation was written, since at that time, these things were 'shortly to come to pass'.

 

[farouk]

I do not know what I will conclude re Rev 11. But if that text "proves" that Jesus is not presently King, my faith in the inerrancy of Scripture will be shaken, since then we would have a number of texts, including Matthew 28 and Acts 2 (you have yet to respond to that argument) placing Jesus in the role of presently seated king of the earth, and Revelation 11 suggesting otherwise.

By the way, I never said that God was presently king, I said that Jesus was presently king. 1 Corinthians 15 has Jesus "handing over" the kingdom to God at some point in the future.

Hebrews 2.8 may be a useful verse:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. [/FONT][/FONT]