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Heidi

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If we have free will to obey or disobey God, then why do we ask God to affect people's lives and circumstances? :o If we can get ourselves out of temptation, then why do we ask God in the Lord's Prayer to lead us out of temptation? For that matter, why do we pray for anything if humans make the choices in the universe? :o

The answer is that humans do not make the choices in the universe as the pride of man wants to believe. So we bring our petitions to God who, as Jesus tells us already knows what we need and what God will do. He simply wants us to be humble before him and he gives us the desire to ask him for what he already knows will happen. And that's precisely why Jesus tells us in John 16:24-25, that whatever we ask in His name will be granted. That means that when we pray because we are led to by the Spirit, it will be granted. But praying for sinful desires out of our sinful nature will obviously not be granted.

So the Lord doesn't just know our steps he determines our steps as Proverbs 28:5 says, "In his heart, a man plans his course. But the Lord determines his steps."

God doesn't just know where we will live; he determines where we will live as Acts 17:26 tells us.

God doesn't just know that the Jews will be persecuted in foreign lands, he will bring their enemies against them as Leviticus 26:14-39 tells us. He will bring plagues and disease against His enemies, as he did in Egypt.

God doesn't just know there will be a final anti-Christ, he will raise up the anti-Christ as Zechariah 11:15-17 says.

God doesn't just know who will be saved and who won't be, he determines who will be saved by His soveriegn choice in election before the creation of the world as explained in Romans 9:11-25, Ephesians 1:4, and many more of Christ's words.

God doesn't just allow sin, he bound all men over to disobedience as Romans 11:32 tells us, by using Satan to deceive us. This was His plan, not anyone else's.

So no, none of us has free will any more than we can not think of an elephant when someone tells us not to. The first thing we do is think of an elephant. Paul addresses that beautifully in Romans 7:7-8. And that is precisely why we need a savior who can lead us out of sin and into truth and righteousness.

So, no, we cannot muster up faith on our own because the sinful nature cannot please God. Only the Spirit can show us the truth and give us faith as Romans 8:8-9, and John 14:26 tells us.

And in regard to God's love, God is no more an unloving God than a parent is unloving for disciplining and puishing his children. What humans think love is, on the other hand, is someone giving us what we want. :lol: But God has shown us the foolishness of human wisdom through his love and his wrath. He gets the last word regardless of whether or not humans think he's fair. In Romans 9:19, Paul addresses the people who will ask him why God still blames us if he's the one who's hardening hearts. Paul answers; "Who are you O man, to talk back to God?...Doesn't the potter have the right to form out of the same lumo of clay some for noble purposes and some for common use?" Man says no. God says yes. :)

So as I explained in an earlier OP, Matthew 20 shows us that the employer decides who to hire, who to fire, what he will pay his employees, if at all, and how he will treat his employees, not the employee.

And lastly, Jesus said; "I will keep you from harm". So how can he do that if he's not dictating our lives? He can't. God also tells us that He will not give us any more than we can bear. And Jesus says; "I will make you strong." So again, how can he do that if we are making our own decisions? He can't. God is not a liar so it isn't man who makes himself strong, it's only God's power that can have an affect in the world. I don't think that many Christians realize just how much danger God keeps us from every single day. :crying:

So God is omnipotent as well as omniscient to will us to act according to his good purpose. Everything is going as God planned so that all the events in Revelations can take place the way He wants them to. God can step in any time and change circumstances. So it is he who is dictating the course of the universe, not man, as humans so proudly are deceived into thinking. ;-)
 
Heidi - you are attempting to make this an EITHER/OR situation.

I have explained, from scripture, highlighted by the first Semon of Peter as recorded in Acts chapter 2 - which lead for the 3,000 being added to the 'church' - that God is Soveirgn and we have a responsibility.

We need to rely on God, because our will is in bondage to sin. Without the ministry of the Holy Spirit - we (who are believers) did not know what we were in bondage to sin. After the Holy Spirit convicts us, shows us the truth in Christ Jesus we are faced with the responsiblity to accept or not.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Heidi - you are attempting to make this an EITHER/OR situation.

I have explained, from scripture, highlighted by the first Semon of Peter as recorded in Acts chapter 2 - which lead for the 3,000 being added to the 'church' - that God is Soveirgn and we have a responsibility.

We need to rely on God, because our will is in bondage to sin. Without the ministry of the Holy Spirit - we (who are believers) did not know what we were in bondage to sin. After the Holy Spirit convicts us, shows us the truth in Christ Jesus we are faced with the responsiblity to accept or not.

No, we respond out of what rules us. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." We are either slaves to sin in the sinful nature or slaves to righeousness by the Spirit as paul tells us in Romans 7:25. We were all born in sin through no choice of our own. So we are all guilty. The Holy Spirit leads his elect to admit we're guilty and the devil deceives the non-elect into believing they are not guilty. So sorry, but again, none of us is more pwoerful than God or satan. So there is no gray area here. God is in control of the universe, not humans. Sorry. :wink:
 
Heidi - you might want to read Romans 7:25 again.

25(A)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (B)the law of sin.

Paul is not making this an EITHER/OR - but is talking about the struggle he faces between the Spirit and the Flesh.
 
aLoneVoice said:
Heidi - you might want to read Romans 7:25 again.

25(A)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (B)the law of sin.

Paul is not making this an EITHER/OR - but is talking about the struggle he faces between the Spirit and the Flesh.

And put that together with Romans 8:9. those who have the Spirit of God insie are controlled by the Spirit, not the sinful nature. And Paul makes it crystal clear in Romans 7:13-15 that he does not want to sin. He only does because he has a sinful nature. So no, sin is not a choice. It's a reality because we were all created in sin, which is precisely why we need Chrst's atonement because only Jesus has victory over Satan's deception and the Holy Spirit is who leads us into all truth. That's Paul's whole point in that passage. :)
 
Heidi - i don't mean to cause offense but I personally think your OP is the worst arguement over this issue that I have ever heard.

In your last post you say those who have the Spirit of God inside are controlled by the Spirit, not the sinful nature. I still sin so according to you I do not have the Spirit because if I did I would not be controlled by my sinful nature. I find this very difficult to take - you have told me Christ is not with me.

You start with "if we have free will to obey/disobey God, then why do we ask God to affect people's lives?" I believe we have free will but that God can over rule at anytime so don't get at me with that again. The reason I ask/pray to God to work in other people's lives cause He is all powerful, I am not.
 
dancing queen said:
Heidi - i don't mean to cause offense but I personally think your OP is the worst arguement over this issue that I have ever heard.

In your last post you say those who have the Spirit of God inside are controlled by the Spirit, not the sinful nature. I still sin so according to you I do not have the Spirit because if I did I would not be controlled by my sinful nature. I find this very difficult to take - you have told me Christ is not with me.

You start with "if we have free will to obey/disobey God, then why do we ask God to affect people's lives?" I believe we have free will but that God can over rule at anytime so don't get at me with that again. The reason I ask/pray to God to work in other people's lives cause He is all powerful, I am not.

So if we have free will then why ask God for anything since we have the power to do what God wants? :lol: So no, Dancing, only God can lead us out of temptation because if we could do it by ourselves, then we wouldn't need God for anything. Again, I don't think many Christians understand just how much God has kept them from temptation already. :roll:
 
Heidi said:
And put that together with Romans 8:9. those who have the Spirit of God insie are controlled by the Spirit, not the sinful nature. And Paul makes it crystal clear in Romans 7:13-15 that he does not want to sin. He only does because he has a sinful nature. So no, sin is not a choice. It's a reality because we were all created in sin, which is precisely why we need Chrst's atonement because only Jesus has victory over Satan's deception and the Holy Spirit is who leads us into all truth. That's Paul's whole point in that passage. :)

Which passage are you referring to? Because to be honest, you are all over the map here. We are discussing Romans 7:25 and then you jump all around, not even mentioning Romans 7:25!

Not to mention that you say "Those who have the Spirit of God inside are controlled by the Spirit, not the sinful nautre."

But then you say that Paul does not "want" to sin, but he does because he has a sinful nature. So, you are saying that Paul doesn't have the Spirit of God, because if he did he would be controlled by the Spirit of God. But you then say that Paul is being controlled by his sinful nature.

Heidi - I am sorry, but you are contradicting Scripture and yourself. I understand your passion and you are trying to convey your strong held beliefs, but I would suggest you take a moment to collect your thoughts before posting. You are contradicting yourself!
 
aLoneVoice said:
Which passage are you referring to? Because to be honest, you are all over the map here. We are discussing Romans 7:25 and then you jump all around, not even mentioning Romans 7:25!

Not to mention that you say "Those who have the Spirit of God inside are controlled by the Spirit, not the sinful nautre."

But then you say that Paul does not "want" to sin, but he does because he has a sinful nature. So, you are saying that Paul doesn't have the Spirit of God, because if he did he would be controlled by the Spirit of God. But you then say that Paul is being controlled by his sinful nature.

Heidi - I am sorry, but you are contradicting Scripture and yourself. I understand your passion and you are trying to convey your strong held beliefs, but I would suggest you take a moment to collect your thoughts before posting. You are contradicting yourself!

That's why I added Romans 8:9 to 7:25. Once we have the Spirit of God inside of us, we are controlled by the Spirit of God which Romans 8:9 tells us. But as Paul also tells us in Romans 7:13-25, we also will still struggle with sin because we have a sinful nature. So our struggle isn't against flesh and blood but between God and Satan and God will win...always.

So no I am not contradicting any scripture. The holy Spirit is simply stronger than our sinful nature. But God also allows some of our sinful nature to remain or we would become God ourselves, as in the case of Paul's thorn. So once again, God is in control of what happens in our lives, not us. That's what it means to be in God's hands. If you don't udnerstand that, then there's nothing I can do about that. Sorry. :wink:
 
Heidi said:
That's why I added Romans 8:9 to 7:25. Once we have the Spirit of God inside of us, we are controlled by the Spirit of God which Romans 8:9 tells us. But as Paul also tells us in Romans 7:13-25, we also will still struggle with sin because we have a sinful nature. So our struggle isn't against flesh and blood but between God and Satan and God will win...always.

So no I am not contradicting any scripture. The holy Spirit is simply stronger than our sinful nature. But God also allows some of our sinful nature to remain or we would become God ourselves, as in the case of Paul's thorn. So once again, God is in control of what happens in our lives, not us. That's what it means to be in God's hands. If you don't udnerstand that, then there's nothing I can do about that. Sorry. :wink:

Paul's thorn was not "sin" - and how can a sinless God who abhors sin, allow sin to show how Holy He is?

What you are saying is that God needs sin to show how good God is. You believe this to be scriptural? It is not I that does not understand and who needs to be felt sorry for.

I assume that you got dressed this morning - did God whisper in your ear what to wear? Did you look at two shirts and decide which one you wanted to wear? When you had lunch - did God tell you what to eat? Did you decide between chicken or ham? a sandwich or a salad?

Yes, God is in control - however, He also respects the responsibility of humanity. Peter's first sermon in Acts is the easiest example I can show you - and yet you have ignorned it.

This appears to be a pattern.
 
Good grief :-?

Heidi...With all due respect...You need to learn to stay in context...
You can't play connect the dots with scripture...You are all over the map and even using scripture that was meant only for Israel to try and justify your beliefs...Sorry, but it does not work that way.
 
jgredline said:
Good grief :-?

Heidi...With all due respect...You need to learn to stay in context...
You can't play connect the dots with scripture...You are all over the map and even using scripture that was meant only for Israel to try and justify your beliefs...Sorry, but it does not work that way.

I simply use other scripture to interpret other scripture as you agreed we need to do. ;-) So now, with all due respect, you need to explain these verses:

Romans 11:32
Romans 9:11-25
Romans 8:8-9
Romans 8:20
Romans 1:18-31
2 Corinthians 4:4
Luke 10:22
John 15:16
John 17:9
Proverbs 16:4

So let's see how your interpretation agrees with other scripture. Since you have claimed to udnerstand and agree with the book of Romans, then let's hear your explanation of the above verses that is reconciled with other scripture. So until you can reconcile your interpretation with the scripture above and many more, than I cannot accept your interpretation as being biblical. Sorry. :wink:
 
I am at work so don't have time to go through your verses but I came across this last night from I corinthians 10.

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

This confirms that its God that leads us out of temptation. It says you will not be tempted beyond what you can bear, and that God always provides a way out. So when I fall, and am tempted, and sin, I must have ignored God's way out. no?
 

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