Preaching Sovereignty of God in salvation.

[Drew]

No. Your argument is entirely undercut by the clear fact that the pre-destination of a group does not necessitate the pre-destination of specific persons.

where is that in the scripture ? where does it say in the scripture that predestination of a group of people does not necessitate the predestination of specific persons ? can you show me that passage please ?

Where does it say in Scripture that the Greek word that is translated "pre-destined" actually means what we think it means? Show me the passage. Where does it say in Scripture that if A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C? Please show me the passage. And perhaps more a propos of what we are talking about: Where does it say in Scripture that a "vessel of destruction" is a "person pre-destined to ultimate loss"? Please show me the exact passage where Paul states "When I write 'vessel fitted for destruction', I want you (the reader) to understand that I am referring to the "pre-destined lost"". Where, exactly, does Paul say this?

Of course you will fail in finding any texts to answer any of these questions. And you are well within your rights to make a case the "vessels of destruction" are the pre-destined lost. But, and let there be no mistake here - the Scriptures never directly say this. You use context and make an interpretation to that effect. And that is your right.

This is a dead argument you are going with. You are effectively trying to rule out the application of any processes of reasoning and rational argument when you ask what you ask.

And the fact of the matter is - there is a rational sound argument that the pre-destination of a group does not necessitate the pre-destination of the members of that group.

Why have you not answered my question. It is clear and understandable. Here it is again:

Is it possible for God to pre-destine that 9 men in New York Yankees will take the field on April 6, 2017 without also pre-destining who the specific players are? If you answer is "no", I will then prove that you are wrong through a detailed and precise argument. If your answer is "yes", then you have proved my point - God can pre-destince a group to glory without pre-destining the specific members

 

[3rddayuprising]

We don't need to "make our case", Paul has already made his case. The predestinated ones (those "afore prepared to glory") see it...and are glad!

You are really continuing to avoid arguments that challenge your position. I have repeatedly shown that a "group" can be pre-destined to some state without the necessary implication that the specific members are thus pre-destined.

Let me ask you this question:

Is it possible for God to pre-destine that 9 men in New York Yankees will take the field on April 6, 2017 without also pre-destining who the specific players are? If you answer is "no", I will then prove that you are wrong through a detailed and precise argument. If your answer is "yes", then you have proved my point - God can pre-destince a group to glory without pre-destining the specific members.

All that has been "proven" is the fact that Truth is REVEALED to individuals of God's choosing. God will vindicate and manifest those who walk in Truth as He wills and as He desires.

Only the Father in heaven can and will REVEAL Truth to those who are predestined to hear and receive. "Flesh and blood", nor endless dissertation...proves anything, but only the Spirit of God enlightens the individual to Bible Truth.

 

[Drew]

We don't need to "make our case", Paul has already made his case. The predestinated ones (those "afore prepared to glory") see it...and are glad!

You are really continuing to avoid arguments that challenge your position. I have repeatedly shown that a "group" can be pre-destined to some state without the necessary implication that the specific members are thus pre-destined.

Let me ask you this question

Is it possible for God to pre-destine that 9 men in New York Yankees will take the field on April 6, 2017 without also pre-destining who the specific players are? If you answer is "no", I will then prove that you are wrong through a detailed and precise argument. If your answer is "yes", then you have proved my point - God can pre-destince a group to glory without pre-destining the specific members.

All that has been "proven" is the fact that Truth is REVEALED to individuals of God's choosing. God will vindicate and manifest those who walk in Truth as He wills and as He desires.

Only the Father in heaven can and will REVEAL Truth to those who are predestined to hear and receive. "Flesh and blood", nor endless dissertation...proves anything, but only the Spirit of God enlightens the individual to Bible Truth.

Please answer my question (or does your "election" mean that you get immunity from challenges to your position?):

Is it possible for God to pre-destine that 9 men in New York Yankees will take the field on April 6, 2017 without also pre-destining who the specific players are?

 

[Paidion]

now the reason paidon says this is his tradition. He views calvinism only through his tradition and does not understand biblical Calvinism. His tradition asserts that in the Calvinist view of man he is sitting under the proverbial tree waiting for election.

Mondar, you are making considerable assumption here. Indeed, it is not presumption? What do you know about my tradition? May I suggest "absolutely zilch"?

Until I was in my mid-twenties, I was a very strong Calvinist. I believed in "predestination" and "eternal security" (actually "unconditional security"), and at the time I saw my ministry as convincing everyone else of these concepts. At a Bible study with a group of Mennonite students at teachers college, I tried to convince them of these doctrines. One of them asked, "Don, where do you get this stuff? Where do you find this in the Bible?"

I replied, "Why, you find it on every page!"

If anyone presented Scriptures which contradicted these doctrines, I could explain them away. We were studying I John together, and it seemed to everyone (except me) that its teachings were diametrically opposed to these ideas. Later I, too, began to see that I John was inconsistent with Calvinism. I was almost ready to exclude I John from "the canon".

Oh yes, I was a convinced Calvinist. That was my "tradition". But there came a time (still in my twenties) when I wondered, "How can we know what the Scriptures actually mean?" There are so many denominations, each claiming to follow the Scriptures exactly, but yet holding to teachings which contradict one another. I thought that writers from the second century might be in a better position to understand Paul and Peter (since they lived maybe 50-70 years after Paul and Peter wrote their letters) than we who live 2000 years later.

In reading these early Christian writers, I was hit square between the eyes. God convicted me, and I repented of my false beliefs.

... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. II Peter 1:10

If you are among the elect (in a Calvinistic sense) --- if God chose you to be among the elect before the foundation of the earth and your status can never change, then how can you "make your election sure"? It's sure already, isn't it?

As I have come to understand Scripture for the past four decades, I find that Calvinism doesn't make Scriptural sense, or even logical sense.

 

[beloved57]

Where does it say in Scripture that the Greek word that is translated "pre-destined" actually means what we think it means?

Show me in scripture where the greek word that is translated predestned actually does not mean what we think it means ?

 

[Drew]

Where does it say in Scripture that the Greek word that is translated "pre-destined" actually means what we think it means?

Show me in scripture where the greek word that is translated predestned actually does not mean what we think it means ?

What kind of an argument is this? The fact that the Scriptures do not tell us that the greek word does not mean what you think it means, is not argument that it means what you think it means.

 

[3rddayuprising]

now the reason paidon says this is his tradition. He views calvinism only through his tradition and does not understand biblical Calvinism. His tradition asserts that in the Calvinist view of man he is sitting under the proverbial tree waiting for election.

Mondar, you are making considerable assumption here. Indeed, it is not presumption? What do you know about my tradition? May I suggest "absolutely zilch"?

Until I was in my mid-twenties, I was a very strong Calvinist. I believed in "predestination" and "eternal security" (actually "unconditional security"), and at the time I saw my ministry as convincing everyone else of these concepts. At a Bible study with a group of Mennonite students at teachers college, I tried to convince them of these doctrines. One of them asked, "Don, where do you get this stuff? Where do you find this in the Bible?"

I replied, "Why, you find it on every page!"

If anyone presented Scriptures which contradicted these doctrines, I could explain them away. We were studying I John together, and it seemed to everyone (except me) that its teachings were diametrically opposed to these ideas. Later I, too, began to see that I John was inconsistent with Calvinism. I was almost ready to exclude I John from "the canon".

Oh yes, I was a convinced Calvinist. That was my "tradition". But there came a time (still in my twenties) when I wondered, "How can we know what the Scriptures actually mean?" There are so many denominations, each claiming to follow the Scriptures exactly, but yet holding to teachings which contradict one another. I thought that writers from the second century might be in a better position to understand Paul and Peter (since they lived maybe 50-70 years after Paul and Peter wrote their letters) than we who live 2000 years later.

In reading these early Christian writers, I was hit square between the eyes. God convicted me, and I repented of my false beliefs.

... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. II Peter 1:10

If you are among the elect (in a Calvinistic sense) --- if God chose you to be among the elect before the foundation of the earth and your status can never change, then how can you "make your election sure"? It's sure already, isn't it?

As I have come to understand Scripture for the past four decades, I find that Calvinism doesn't make Scriptural sense, or even logical sense.

Sounds to me like you need to seek God for Revelation from Him directly. Not from Calvin or Melvin, or anyone at a Bible study. If someone can talk you into something, then someone can easily come along and talk you out of it. Sounds like that's what happened.

To "make ones calling and election sure", is to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" until what is real in God's heart for you AS A PREDESTINATED son or daughter of God (if you are one) is made just as REAL to you.

 

[Paidion]

Show me in scripture where the greek word that is translated predestned actually does not mean what we think it means ?

I will attempt to do so. The Greek word in question is "ÀÃÂο-οÃÂιζÉ" The first three letters "ÀÃÂο" is a prefix, meaning "before". The primary meaning of the root word "οÃÂιζÉ" is given in lexicons as "to appoint" or "to determine".

Consider the following scriptural statement:

Acts 11:29 And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea.

When the disciples who had money determined to send a contribution, did it mean that the sending of the contribution was destined? Clearly not. It simply indicated the disciples intention to do so. They had determined in their minds to do so. They had made up their minds to do so. If they had made up their minds beforehand, then the word "ÀÃÂο-οÃÂιζÉ" might have been used in the text. Sometimes a person who determines to do a certain thing changes his mind. Sometimes even God changes His mind with regards to what He intends to do.

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it.

And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. Jeremiah 18:7-10 NRSV

We read in Romans 8:29

For those whom he foreknew he also predetermined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

So God has predetermined some to be conformed to the image of His Son. It His intention that they be so conformed. But He does not make it their destination in such a way that it could not be otherwise. The word can also be translated "pre-appointed". But those so appointed before hand might choose not to keep their appointment.

However, you might object, "If God foreknew that they would be so conformed to the image of the Son, how could they do otherwise?" To foreknow a person, does not mean knowing everything he is going to do. Rather it literally means knowing that person before. Paul wrote that the Jews foreknew him from the beginning.

My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my own nation and at Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews. They have foreknown me from the beginning, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee. Acts 26: 4,5

In what sense does this passage indicate that the Jews foreknew Paul from the beginning? The knew from the beginning that he had lived as a Pharisee.

In English, we have the word "prognosis" taken directly from the Greek word. When we ask the doctor what is the prognosis concerning our physical ailment, he tells us what is likely to happen, given the observed conditions, not what is "predestined" to happen.

God, being omnicient, knowing the thoughts and intents of our hearts, is in a far greater position than any human being to be able to predict what a person is likely to do. But what a person will choose cannot be known before hand. The reason for that is that the choice has not yet been made, and so there is nothing to know.

So God foreknows everyone, based on His complete knowledge of them. But He foreknows certain individuals in the sense that He sees they are likely to choose to be Christ's disciples. His pursoses for such people includes their being conformed to the image of Christ, and so that is his appointement for them. That is his intention for them. Nothwithstanding some of them may choose not to keep that appointment; they may choose to go their own way instead of appropriating the enabling grace of God to change them. God does not force His will on anyone. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. However, at the present time, not all do so. There are only a few, the "little flock", those who take the "narrow path" that leads to life, who are actually in that position.

 

[beloved57]

Sometimes even God changes His mind with regards to what He intends to do.

ps 33:

11The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.