Predestination: For or against?

[bfiddy]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Eugene]

Hi bifiddy and welcome to Cf.net since this is your first post. I hope to get back to this subject and may God bless you here in Jesus' name.
:waving

 

[reba]

What you will find here is a mix.... and the battles that go with that mix.. soooooo welcome to the forums Hope you have some good discussion time while here...

 

[bfiddy]

Thank you for the welcomes, Eugene and Reba.

 

[farouk]

I Peter 1.

Ephesians 1.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

Ephesians 1:3, the Bible says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ…” Mark in your Bible the phrase “in Christ” or the word “in”, because that's going to be very important to our understanding of this context. Verse 4 says, “just as he chose us in Him…”

There's that phrase “in Him”. “Before the foundation, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.” Verse 5, here's where we see predestination being taught. “Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will…” Verse 6, the Bible says that the Lord has “predestined” or predetermined us.

But the question is, how has He done that? Keep reading. Verse 6, “to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.” “In Him,” there's that phrase “in Him” again, “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound towards us in all wisdom and prudence.

Having made known to us the mystery of His will court His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth-in Him.”

You keep reading: “in Him”, “in Him”, “in Him”. There's where all these things are being done. There's where all these things are being predetermined. “In Him”.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Now finally verse 13.

“In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation in whom also having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

So the Bible teaches that we are predestined. But how are we predestined? The Bible teaches that all of those who are in Jesus, all of those who are in Christ are the people that are going to be saved.

It is not that the Lord went through and said, “You're going to be saved, you're going to lost, you're going to be saved.” He didn't do that. All that are going to be in Christ are going to be the saved. And according to verse 13, we have a choice of whether or not we're going to be in Christ or not. It's up to us. After we've heard, it's up to us whether we are going to accept.

If I were to say that everyone who is at my house at 3 o'clock this afternoon is going to receive a free meal, guess what I just did? I made a predetermination. I predestined that anybody who's going to be at my house at 3 o'clock this afternoon is going to receive a free meal. Now, I don't know the individuals who are going to come, but I do know the type of people I've determined: all of those who are going to be in my house. Well, the Lord did the same thing.

He predetermined that all of those individuals who chose to follow Him, all of those who are going to be in Christ, those are His predetermined people. All the saved ones are those who chose and who continue to choose to be in Christ. Notice Galatians 3:28. The Bible says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This is scriptural predestination because it shows us how God predetermined the boundary that God Himself set. That is the boundary.

 

[Butch5]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

Hi bfiddy,

Welcome. While I agree that Predestination and Election are Biblical doctrines, which I believe. I don't believe the interpretation you've given them in this thread. I don't believe that interpretation can be supported with Scripture properly exegeted.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi bfiddy,

Welcome. While I agree that Predestination and Election are Biblical doctrines, which I believe. I don't believe the interpretation you've given them in this thread. I don't believe that interpretation can be supported with Scripture properly exegeted.

In Romans 8:28 the Bible says, “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” What type of people does God say all things work together for good? “Those who love God and those who are called according to His purpose.” Well, what does it mean to be called? Well, here's how we're called.

We are called through the gospel. The gospel invitation is calling all of us, but we have to answer the calling. 2 Thessalonians 2:14, the Bible says, “To which He called you by our gospel for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

He called you through the gospel so that you could obtain salvation and be in Christ and be part of the predestined, be part of the elect that God chose before time. That all of those who are in Christ would be saved. And the only way that you can be in Christ is by obeying the gospel.

The Bible teaches in Romans 6:3-4 that we are baptized into to Christ. Galatians 3:27 also teaches that we are put into Christ when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. And here's why we have to understand what do we have to do in order to be saved. How do I become a part of the elect? How exactly does that happen?

Well, it's not going to be some sort of mystical feeling or magical feeling that overcomes you. First of all, you have to do what 2 Thessalonians 2:14 says. You've got to listen to the call, and you're called through the gospel. The words of the God call anybody, invites anybody to be part of the elect, to be part of the chosen.

The Bible also teaches that you not only have to be called, but you've got to go to the right standard, Romans 10:17. This is where you're going to be called. You may have answered a calling before, but you have never answered the gospel call if you've not obeyed what the Bible says. Romans 10:17 says that “Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.”

Not your preacher. Don't listen to the false doctrine of Calvinism. Don't listen to people who say that you're either chosen to be saved or chosen to be lost, and there's nothing you can do about it. The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible teaches that anybody can obey the call.

So once you go to the right standard, then you must believe it: John 3:16, John 8:24. Jesus taught that we must believe that he is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. If we don't believe that, then we can't be saved.

But the Bible teaches there's more to being the elect than just believing in Jesus Christ. You must also repent of your past sins. Repentance means to change. In Acts 17:30 the Bible said that “there was a time that God once overlooked ignorance, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent.”

We have to repent. We have to change to do the will of God, Acts 3:18-19. If we want forgiveness of sins, we must repent of our past sins. The Bible teaches that we must confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, Romans 10:10.

But confessing Jesus and simply saying, “Lord, Lord” is not enough. Matthew 7:21, Jesus said that it's “not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my God that is in heaven.” We have to do the will of God. We have to do the will of the Father. It's not enough just to say, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

We must do what He says. That's why Jesus said in Luke 6:46 “why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and do not do the things which I say?” It's one thing to call Jesus “Lord”. It's another to follow Him as your Lord. So then the Bible teaches, though, that you've got to be baptized. Mark 16:16, Jesus said, ‘he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Both belief and baptism comes before salvation. The Bible teaches in Acts 2:38 that you “repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins”. That is in order to have your sins washed away. And that's why passages such as Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27 teach that when you do that, you are being put into the body. Only the Lord can add you to the body, Acts 2:47, Colossians 1:13. And the Lord will only do that when you obey Him.

So make sure that you are part of the elect. Anybody can be a part of that if you follow the Lord. But you have to obey the truth.

 

[Butch5]

In Romans 8:28 the Bible says, “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” What type of people does God say all things work together for good? “Those who love God and those who are called according to His purpose.” Well, what does it mean to be called? Well, here's how we're called.

We are called through the gospel. The gospel invitation is calling all of us, but we have to answer the calling. 2 Thessalonians 2:14, the Bible says, “To which He called you by our gospel for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

He called you through the gospel so that you could obtain salvation and be in Christ and be part of the predestined, be part of the elect that God chose before time. That all of those who are in Christ would be saved. And the only way that you can be in Christ is by obeying the gospel.

The Bible teaches in Romans 6:3-4 that we are baptized into to Christ. Galatians 3:27 also teaches that we are put into Christ when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. And here's why we have to understand what do we have to do in order to be saved. How do I become a part of the elect? How exactly does that happen?

Well, it's not going to be some sort of mystical feeling or magical feeling that overcomes you. First of all, you have to do what 2 Thessalonians 2:14 says. You've got to listen to the call, and you're called through the gospel. The words of the God call anybody, invites anybody to be part of the elect, to be part of the chosen.

The Bible also teaches that you not only have to be called, but you've got to go to the right standard, Romans 10:17. This is where you're going to be called. You may have answered a calling before, but you have never answered the gospel call if you've not obeyed what the Bible says. Romans 10:17 says that “Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.”

Not your preacher. Don't listen to the false doctrine of Calvinism. Don't listen to people who say that you're either chosen to be saved or chosen to be lost, and there's nothing you can do about it. The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible teaches that anybody can obey the call.

So once you go to the right standard, then you must believe it: John 3:16, John 8:24. Jesus taught that we must believe that he is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. If we don't believe that, then we can't be saved.

But the Bible teaches there's more to being the elect than just believing in Jesus Christ. You must also repent of your past sins. Repentance means to change. In Acts 17:30 the Bible said that “there was a time that God once overlooked ignorance, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent.”

We have to repent. We have to change to do the will of God, Acts 3:18-19. If we want forgiveness of sins, we must repent of our past sins. The Bible teaches that we must confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, Romans 10:10.

But confessing Jesus and simply saying, “Lord, Lord” is not enough. Matthew 7:21, Jesus said that it's “not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my God that is in heaven.” We have to do the will of God. We have to do the will of the Father. It's not enough just to say, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

We must do what He says. That's why Jesus said in Luke 6:46 “why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and do not do the things which I say?” It's one thing to call Jesus “Lord”. It's another to follow Him as your Lord. So then the Bible teaches, though, that you've got to be baptized. Mark 16:16, Jesus said, ‘he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Both belief and baptism comes before salvation. The Bible teaches in Acts 2:38 that you “repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins”. That is in order to have your sins washed away. And that's why passages such as Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27 teach that when you do that, you are being put into the body. Only the Lord can add you to the body, Acts 2:47, Colossians 1:13. And the Lord will only do that when you obey Him.

So make sure that you are part of the elect. Anybody can be a part of that if you follow the Lord. But if you've yet to obey the truth, we pray today that you will obey the gospel of Christ.

Hi Born Again,

Actually, Romans 8:28-30 is not talking about Christians. He's talking about Jews that God knew from the Old Testament.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi Born Again,

Actually, Romans 8:28-30 is not talking about Christians. He's talking about Jews that God knew from the Old Testament.

Hi Butch5,

Here is what I found: Romans 8:28

even to them that are called—These have been called by the gospel, and accepted it. Many others are called, Jews and Gentiles; but only those who hear and obey are God's chosen ones. Matt 22:14.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,

Here is what I found:

even to them that are called—These have been called by the gospel, and accepted it. Many others are called, Jews and Gentiles; but only those who hear and obey are God's chosen ones. (Matt. 22:14.)

In that passage in Romans 8 Paul is encouraging his readers to persevere. To encourage them he reminds them that God works all things together for good to those who love Him, to those woo are called according to his plan. The Greek word translate plan means a setting forth or setting before. It is used of the show bread in the OT. It means to lay something out before someone. This laying out that he refers to is the Abrahamic covenant. God called people to bring this covenant to fruition and this is what Paul is referring to. Paul turns to addressing the Jews in Romans 2:17. He continues this dialog through to chapter 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

 

[rrowell]

In that passage in Romans 8 Paul is encouraging his readers to persevere. To encourage them he reminds them that God works all things together for good to those who love Him, to those woo are called according to his plan. The Greek word translate plan means a setting forth or setting before.

and how does this change the meaning of Romans 8:28?

 

[Davies]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

Hello Brian,

Welcome to the site. You've asked one of the most contentious questions you could possibly ask next to how does someone become a Christian, so I'll give you my thought. I have thought about this for a while, and I think we should be slow on this one before making hasty conclusions. First, I think it's totally in God's sovereignty. He's the one who decides. I am conflicted on the matter because I know there is a standard by which God uses when He decides, but I'm not sure I know what that is. Yes, we have to repent and put our trust in Jesus to be born-again which God promises. But is it because we responded to the good news or because God worked in us to make that decision? I think the latter. Why do others not believe? I don't know outside of some generalities that the Bible gives us. I refuse to believe that God arbitrarily cut people off because He has the power to pick and choose out of randomness. God does desire for all men to come to repentance. I refuse to be dogmatic on this one, and thank God for His mercy. We should pray that everyone we know, and perhaps everyone we don't know, comes to repentance and that we would grow in His grace. No matter how you slice it, God always does what is right.

If you are honest and explain what you believe, and are wrong from time to time or even if you right, be prepared to be team tackled. Just remember, it's all by God's grace.

- Davies

 

[Grazer]

The way I got it figured is God has a plan to get us to point B but I have free will to choose which path to go down and its often not the direct one or the one God knows is best. He uses whatever path were on to get us where we need to be.

Unfortunately, there are some who just continue to deviate that they never get to the end before they die. After that, well that's between them and God but the bible is clear that not everyone will be in the new heaven and the new earth but the bible also seems clear that is not what god wants but he will honor our choice.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[WIP]

I don't concern myself with this topic. No matter what we are called to be followers of Christ and that's what I will try to be. Beyond that, I will trust God and His plan for me.

 

[Slider]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

I'm with ya Brian! That's what the Bible says!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

hi bfiddy, i don't understand why you would say that none will freely choose God. i always thought i did.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I believe that some how, some way, predestination and mans freewill work together. I think its just more than what our finite minds can fully comprehend. The Bible has paradoxical truths that are hard to grasp sometimes. Its like fire and ice coexisting in the exact same place at the exact same time.

 

[Davies]

Good morning,

I was watching this movie, and an old man was talking to a young boy. The old man told the boy that wisdom was his forte, and he asked the boy if he knew what wisdom was. The boy replied, 'I don't know what wisdom is.' The old man replied, 'Very wise answer.'

- Davies

 

[Butch5]

and how does this change the meaning of Romans 8:28?

How does it change the meaning from what? Unless I misunderstood Born Again, she was implying that this was speaking of people being chosen to be saved.