Predestination: For or against?

[Rollo Tamasi]

thank you Edward, i agree.
John 3:17 says that Jesus came to save the "world" through him.
i think that includes all of us.

 

[Butch5]

I'm with ya Brian! That's what the Bible says!

Where?

 

[Butch5]

I believe in predestination in that God can see the beginning and the end. God is not subject to time and it's constraints. I also believe that God calls some through his Holy Spirit. Because of the Holy spirit, we have conscience, and a draw to God. I do not believe that any would choose God freely of their own will. There must be a calling through the Holy Spirit. Some have it, some do not.

If one feels a calling to God then this is somewhat of proof to oneself that God is working with them and that they are not given over unto death. This is a very reassuring thing but we must absolutely obey or we could be spewed from his mouth. Scripture does say that some were created doomed to destruction, and so some were also created to be righteous. Believing in predestination does not mean that one can be idle or not obey, it simply means that God already knows how it will turn out for you. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't think it can be shown that any were created for destruction.

 

[Jules_C]

My husband's church - which is now mine - preaches a hard line in predestination. It is a difficult subject for me to understand or accept!

 

[Butch5]

My husband's church - which is now mine - preaches a hard line in predestination. It is a difficult subject for me to understand or accept!

Hi Jules C,

It is a Biblical doctrine just not as it's commonly preached. The Greek word translated "predestined" means to predetermine. Tha'st really all it means, the problem comes from certain theological positions that impose other beliefs onto predestination. For instance, some say that if God predestined something it must happen. Well, the Scriptures don't say that, what they've done is taken their belief in another doctrine and forced it on this one. God had predestined the Jews to be holy and blameless before Him. We can see from their history that they were not. There are other examples of things like this in Scripture. The problem comes when people impose preconceptions on the Scriptures. If I can be of any help explaining things further let me know.

 

[Slider]

Where?

Yea.... Ummm... Hey Butch.... I'm not playing! You have 695 posts, and you gave a discoarse already. So by you asking "where" I must either believe you know nothing about the topic or you are baiting. I've been on these boards far too long so I believe the latter. I am sticking to what Brian originally asked and yes, the Bible does speak about predestination.

Deal with it, bub.... and deal with the fact that I ain't biting! Now if you want to be cordial and open up a discussion on it fine. But I know a baiter when I see one. You either know what verses I am referring to or you are ignorant. If the latter is true, you shouldn't be giving advice.

 

[Butch5]

Yea.... Ummm... Hey Butch.... I'm not playing! You have 695 posts, and you gave a discoarse already. So by you asking "where" I must either believe you know nothing about the topic or you are baiting. I've been on these boards far too long so I believe the latter. I am sticking to what Brian originally asked and yes, the Bible does speak about predestination.

Deal with it, bub.... and deal with the fact that I ain't biting! Now if you want to be cordial and open up a discussion on it fine. But I know a baiter when I see one. You either know what verses I am referring to or you are ignorant. If the latter is true, you shouldn't be giving advice.

I wasn't was questioning whether or not Predestination and Election were in the Scriptures. What I was questioning was where Brian's definition of Predestination and Election were taught I the Bible. I haven't seen any Scriptures that teach that God chooses who will and will not be saved in the sense he speaks of.

 

[Danus]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

Hello Brian. yes, I agree that predestination and election are biblical teachings in regard to the nature of God and man. This is my understanding of the gospel of grace.

I guess you might find a mix of views regarding this here on this forum, just as you might in the Christian community. I suppose I can give you all my reasons and list a ton of scripture to support it if you like, but since you've come to the same conclusion I see no need. I rather enjoy kicking this hornets nest when I have adequate time.

Welcome to CF.

 

[Eugene]

Anyone interested in a study of:​

PREDESTINATION - ELECTION,
FOREKNOWLEDGE, FOREORDINATION
by A.S. Copley

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48286&p=732917#post732917​

 

[rrowell]

How does it change the meaning from what? Unless I misunderstood Born Again, she was implying that this was speaking of people being chosen to be saved.

There may have been a miss understanding, what she was saying is that Romans 8:28 is not referring to "everyone that was called" but to those that "accepted the call", or those in the "group", that as in Matthew 22:14 there will be some that come and go from the "group", but those "in the group" are those that are called.

It is those that answer the call of the Gospel that are predestined (or the group)

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Butch5]

There may have been a miss understanding, what she was saying is that Romans 8:28 is not referring to "everyone that was called" but to those that "accepted the call", or those in the "group", that as in Matthew 22:14 there will be some that come and go from the "group", but those "in the group" are those that are called.

It is those that answer the call of the Gospel that are predestined (or the group)

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

OK, that's not how I understood what she said. What you've aid here may be the case, however, I don't believe that that is what Paul is getting at in this passage. He's talking about past events.

 

[bfiddy]

Thanks for the responses. It's good to see that the views aren't all against this doctrine (as I described it). It is a very difficult doctrine to accept, but I believe it is wonderfully humbling and magnifies the grace of God.

 

[reba]

Shame on you Danus

 

[bfiddy]

hi bfiddy, i don't understand why you would say that none will freely choose God. i always thought i did.

Hi Allen, the Bible is quite clear that a natural man (a man without the Spirit) will not choose God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Romans 8:8 (NAS) - and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Who is a person in the flesh?

Romans 8:9 (NAS) - However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of God in them is in the flesh.

So God has to choose you first and put His Spirit in you so that you will be able to understand the gospel and be able to do something pleasing to Him. So if you chose God then it's only because He changed you first. And after God makes this change in a person they will always choose God because they will see how good He is.

 

[Davies]

Hi Allen, the Bible is quite clear that a natural man (a man without the Spirit) will not choose God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Romans 8:8 (NAS) - and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Who is a person in the flesh?

Romans 8:9 (NAS) - However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of God in them is in the flesh.

So God has to choose you first and put His Spirit in you so that you will be able to understand the gospel and be able to do something pleasing to Him. So if you chose God then it's only because He changed you first. And after God makes this change in a person they will always choose God because they will see how good He is.

bfiddy,

I like it. I like it a lot. There will be nothing for us to boast about when we stand before Jesus. Every last ounce of credit for our salvation belongs to Jesus, lest we be found robbing God of His glory.

- Davies

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for the responses. It's good to see that the views aren't all against this doctrine (as I described it). It is a very difficult doctrine to accept, but I believe it is wonderfully humbling and magnifies the grace of God.

I don't think there's anything difficult about it. I think the difficulty is in what you've presented it as being.

 

[Danus]

Shame on you Danus

This time it wasn't me.

 

[Grazer]

My views are here;

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48314

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[n2thelight]

Hi all,

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the doctrine of predestination and election in the sense that God chooses who will be saved according to His good pleasure (not by looking into the future and seeing who will freely choose Him (since none will)). The ones He chooses are saved by grace, but the ones He doesn't choose receive justice (no one receives injustice). I've found, however, that very few people hold this view today. I wanted to know what the general sentiment about predestination is on this forum and why you're for or against it.

God bless,
Brian

II Peter 3 points out, there are three earth ages, and three Heaven ages.

II Peter 3:7 tells us this earth age now, which is the second one, will perish following the day of judgment, at the end of this age, and a new heaven and a new earth will then be established. The third earth age is eternal. This understanding of the three earth ages have to be understood before you can understand the fourth verse of Ephesians.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.
"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.
We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.
"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

II Peter 3 points out, there are three earth ages, and three Heaven ages.

II Peter 3:7 tells us this earth age now, which is the second one, will perish following the day of judgment, at the end of this age, and a new heaven and a new earth will then be established. The third earth age is eternal. This understanding of the three earth ages have to be understood before you can understand the fourth verse of Ephesians.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.
"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.
We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.
"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

You study with Shepherds Chapel don't you? I find Arnold Murray's teachings to be bizarre to say the least.