Predestination

[joechrist]

Does anyone have a good explanation of predestination? I had a friend ask me if I believe in predestination and I told him that I do not. But after thinking about it I realized that my beliefs about God require me to believe in predestination. I believe that God is omnipotent(all powerful) and omniscient(all knowing). Therefore, God knew when he created me exactly what path my life would take. He knew what beliefs I would have, whether I would accept or deny Christ, when and how I would die, etc. So if he knew what decisions I would make, I would not have the ability to make an alternative decision because that would mean he was wrong about what I would do. I had never really thought about it much until he brought it up and now I have a different view on predestination. Does anyone have any thoughts about this topic or does anyone disagree with me? I would appreciate any input.

 

[Dave Slayer]

Hi Joe,

This can be a rather difficult thing to explain. Let me instead give you a link to an essay that I feel discusses it very well according to the Bible. I am not asking that you believe the article's arguments, but that you at least look at it as it explains my take on predestination. There are several pages to this essay and the links are provided at the end of each page of the essay.

http://kruszer.tripod.com/election1.html

God Bless!

Dave

 

[Joe67]

Does anyone have a good explanation of predestination? I had a friend ask me if I believe in predestination and I told him that I do not. But after thinking about it I realized that my beliefs about God require me to believe in predestination. I believe that God is omnipotent(all powerful) and omniscient(all knowing). Therefore, God knew when he created me exactly what path my life would take. He knew what beliefs I would have, whether I would accept or deny Christ, when and how I would die, etc. So if he knew what decisions I would make, I would not have the ability to make an alternative decision because that would mean he was wrong about what I would do. I had never really thought about it much until he brought it up and now I have a different view on predestination. Does anyone have any thoughts about this topic or does anyone disagree with me? I would appreciate any input.

joe,

There is beauty in this simplicity. The witness in my heart and mind is in the following scripture.

Col 2:8-12
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. NASU

The testimony of Jesus Christ is simple.

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASU

Joe

 

[follower of Christ]

The testimony of Jesus Christ is simple.

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASU

Joe

Definitely agree. It is simple enough and typically made to be more complex by man.
Romans there cant get any simpler. Predestination is about those whom He foreknew and His predestining them to become conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[shad]

Does anyone have a good explanation of predestination? I had a friend ask me if I believe in predestination and I told him that I do not. But after thinking about it I realized that my beliefs about God require me to believe in predestination. I believe that God is omnipotent(all powerful) and omniscient(all knowing). Therefore, God knew when he created me exactly what path my life would take. He knew what beliefs I would have, whether I would accept or deny Christ, when and how I would die, etc. So if he knew what decisions I would make, I would not have the ability to make an alternative decision because that would mean he was wrong about what I would do. I had never really thought about it much until he brought it up and now I have a different view on predestination. Does anyone have any thoughts about this topic or does anyone disagree with me? I would appreciate any input.

If we believe in predestination our whole effort is meaningless. Of course God knows everything and He know what path we will be taking, but I He will not predestined our lives or His judgment day will not make any sense at all.

.

 

[Joe67]

The testimony of Jesus Christ is simple.

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASU

Joe

Definitely agree. It is simple enough and typically made to be more complex by man.
Romans there cant get any simpler. Predestination is about those whom He foreknew and His predestining them to become conformed to the image of His Son.

FoC,

Amen and Amen.

Phil 3:7-11
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. NASU

Joe

 

[Orion]

It really ISN'T simple, and joechrist brought up a GOOD point concerning who is created, why they are created (if they are known to be one who will "reject christ"), and how it can be good IF they are created to deny. God is the one that "knew us before we were born, while we were in our mother's womb". God is the one who is supposed to orchestrate our lives. Nothing WOULD take God by surprise. Therefore, God would make the majority of people with the destination of Hell. There is no "sugar coating" for this!

**removed due to shad's correction**

?????? Thanks!

 

[shad]

He chooses not to see it

?????? :gah[/quote]


It was poor expression. I edited it.

 

[Cornelius]

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

There is nothing unclear about this scripture. God chose some people before the foundation of the world and it is according to the pleasure of HIS will. It does not really matter if we like, or dislike predestination, the Bible clearly says, that God chose some people, and He did so before the world was created.


C

 

[shad]

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

There is nothing unclear about this scripture. God chose some people before the foundation of the world and it is according to the pleasure of HIS will. It does not really matter if we like, or dislike predestination, the Bible clearly says, that God chose some people, and He did so before the world was created.


C

If God predestined our lives then why does He punish us for our rebellion? His predestination is His plan not our lives.

 

[shad]

It really ISN'T simple, and joechrist brought up a GOOD point concerning who is created, why they are created (if they are known to be one who will "reject christ"), and how it can be good IF they are created to deny. God is the one that "knew us before we were born, while we were in our mother's womb". God is the one who is supposed to orchestrate our lives. Nothing WOULD take God by surprise. Therefore, God would make the majority of people with the destination of Hell. There is no "sugar coating" for this!

**removed due to shad's correction**

?????? Thanks!

thanks orion.

 

[Ret]

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

There is nothing unclear about this scripture. God chose some people before the foundation of the world and it is according to the pleasure of HIS will. It does not really matter if we like, or dislike predestination, the Bible clearly says, that God chose some people, and He did so before the world was created.

C

.......... :amen

Acts 2:22-23
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: ASV

1 Peter 1:20
Christ 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, ASV

In the verses God is giving us a glimpse of the MYSTERY of Godliness and the MYSTERY of iniquity.

 

[Drew]

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

There is nothing unclear about this scripture. God chose some people before the foundation of the world and it is according to the pleasure of HIS will. It does not really matter if we like, or dislike predestination, the Bible clearly says, that God chose some people, and He did so before the world was created.

I think that a powerful case can be made that the "us" in this text denotes a very specific set of New Testament saints. In other words, Paul is not making a general statement about God pre-destining believers, he is saying that God pre-destined a small number of them to "get the church going." So I do not think this text endorses the doctrine of pre-destination (as it is normally conceived).

 

[Ret]

If God predestined our lives then why does He punish us for our rebellion? His predestination is His plan not our lives.

Wonderful question....similar question(s) were asked of Paul....

Romans 3:

7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory,
why am I also still judged as a sinner?

8 and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say),
Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just. ASV

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? ASV


Ahhhh.... half of the answer is bound up in the question - WHY?

 

[Sinthesis]

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

There is nothing unclear about this scripture. God chose some people before the foundation of the world and it is according to the pleasure of HIS will. It does not really matter if we like, or dislike predestination, the Bible clearly says, that God chose some people, and He did so before the world was created.


C

If God predestined our lives then why does He punish us for our rebellion? His predestination is His plan not our lives.

Are our souls predetermined or accountable?

Why not try something easy which has no bearing on our final destination; determine if the photon is a particle or a wave. Figure it out first and you get a prize!

Just be careful not to trip over the stumbling block of the Greeks.

 

[Ret]

Are our souls predetermined or accountable?

Why not try something easy which has no bearing on our final destination;....

At the judgment hall of Pilate, Jesus answers Pilate about who has GREATER responsibility.

John 19:10-12
10 So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11 Jesus answered, " You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." NASU

 

[shad]

[
Are our souls predetermined or accountable?

Why not try something easy which has no bearing on our final destination; determine if the photon is a particle or a wave. Figure it out first and you get a prize!

Just be careful not to trip over the stumbling block of the Greeks.

Would you elaborate your comments please instead of hinting?

thank you.

 

[follower of Christ]

It really ISN'T simple, and joechrist brought up a GOOD point concerning who is created, why they are created (if they are known to be one who will "reject christ"), and how it can be good IF they are created to deny. God is the one that "knew us before we were born, while we were in our mother's womb". God is the one who is supposed to orchestrate our lives. Nothing WOULD take God by surprise. Therefore, God would make the majority of people with the destination of Hell. There is no "sugar coating" for this!

Correct. He knows us before we are even born...'FOREknows' us.
He knows beforehand whom will love Him when He draws them, and thus predestinates those who would to be conformed to the image of His Son.

God would not send a man into hell who WOULD choose to love him.
Nor will He allow into glory one who would choose to hate Him.

 

[Dave Slayer]

The testimony of Jesus Christ is simple.

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASU

Joe

Definitely agree. It is simple enough and typically made to be more complex by man.
Romans there cant get any simpler. Predestination is about those whom He foreknew and His predestining them to become conformed to the image of His Son.

Just to let you know that the "foreknow" doesn't mean God foreknows who will be saved and then chooses them based on our accepting of Jesus. In other words, it is not saying God looks into the future and sees who will accept Jesus and then chooses them based on that. The foreknow means much more than simply looking into the future to see who would accept Jesus. It means God "knew" invididuals on a personal intimate way and not just information about individuals. God knew those were His in a relationship type of way, before the foundations of the world, before anything was ever created. Hence, God fore "knew" them.

To say that this text means God foreknew who would accept Jesus and then choose them would be adding something into the verse that is not there.

Whatever anyone's take on this is, it should be an encouragement of the eternal security of the believer. That whom God had chosen, He predestined them to be coformed to the image of His Son. They will have eternal life. :yes

 

[Dave Slayer]

If we believe in predestination our whole effort is meaningless.

Not neccesarilly. I believe the opposite is true. If we go around preaching hoping that our effort bring people to Christ, then I would say that is meaningless because it is not our efforts that are effective, they are God's efforts. God does uses preachers to win souls but God gets all of the glory for it. If we go around preaching knowing that God had chosen some to be His, then our preaching gives us more hope because we know there are people who will be brough to Christ. It is God who draws the chosen to Christ. This is really hard for me to explain my point in just a few sentences so I will refer you to a video that explains this very objection.

[youtube:18bfclfo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-qriJxQmws[/youtube:18bfclfo]