Bible Study Preserving their fathers seed book of Genesis.....Why?

[ReesesPieces]

Genesis 19 (King James Version)

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.


Why did these daughters choose to do this with their father? Seems awful odd.

 

[farouk]

Genesis 19 (King James Version)

31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.


Why did these daughters choose to do this with their father? Seems awful odd.

Well, exactly!

In the Old Testament, the idea of raising a seed to someone name was important, but the way they chose to do it when they had made Lot drunk was decidedly out of order.

 

[ReesesPieces]

Well, exactly!

In the Old Testament, the idea of raising a seed to someone name was important, but the way they chose to do it when they had made Lot drunk was decidedly out of order.

Hmm okay.. Why was it so important to them? Just trying to get a better understanding as to why there daughters would get their father drunk & then have sex & bare children which were there sons/brothers. just crazy :eeeekkk

 

[chakham]

Hmm okay.. Why was it so important to them? Just trying to get a better understanding as to why there daughters would get their father drunk & then have sex & bare children which were there sons/brothers. just crazy :eeeekkk

Hello Reecespieces and farouk.

The answer why the daughters did this might be found in verse 31. Where we read the eldest daughter telling the youngest there is not a man anywhere on earth to come in unto them. Considering the city they just escaped from where they had lived all their lives and everything and everyone they knew was just obliterated by fire. It may have seemed to the youngest that what the eldest said was true. Now whether the oldest daughter really believed this as well, I dont know.

But having lived in Sodom all their lives the daughters behavior was most likely heavily influenced by what was going on around them, and as we all know by reading Torah the people of Sodom were extremely evil. Which in turn I think, influenced their decision to agree and rape their father. Also their own father gave them up to be raped by the men of Sodom so the daughters apparently learned from Lot too.

Lot wasnt saved on account of his righteousness, but because God did Abraham a favor by sparing Lot and his family.

 

[ReesesPieces]

Hello Reecespieces and farouk.

The answer why the daughters did this might be found in verse 32. Where we read the eldest daughter telling the youngest there is not a man anywhere on earth to come in unto them. Considering the city they just escaped from where they had lived all their lives and everything and everyone they knew was just obliterated by fire. It may have seemed to the youngest that what the eldest said was true. Now whether the oldest daughter really believed this as well, I dont know.

But having lived in Sodom all their lives the daughters behavior was most likely heavily influenced by what was going on around them, and as we all know by reading Torah the people of Sodom were extremely evil. Which in turn I think, influenced their decision to agree and rape their father. Also their own father gave them up to be raped by the men of Sodom so the daughters apparently learned from Lot too.

Lot wasnt saved on account of his righteousness, but because God did Abraham a favor by sparing Lot and his family.

Ahhh ok makes sense...so in a way they were repopulating with their dad...Gross but I get it.

Thankies

 

[Sinthesis]

The weird thing about it is that Jesus can trace His heritage to this disturbing event.

Gen 19:36 ¶ Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
Gen 19:37 - And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same [is] the father of the Moabites unto this day.
Gen 19:38 - And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same [is] the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Rth 1:4 - And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one [was] Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

Rth 4:13 ¶ So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
Rth 4:14 - And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed [be] the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
Rth 4:15 - And he shall be unto thee a restorer of [thy] life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.
Rth 4:16 - And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
Rth 4:17 - And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he [is] the father of Jesse, the father of David.​

 

[chakham]

The weird thing about it is that Jesus can trace His heritage to this disturbing event.

Gen 19:36 ¶ Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
Gen 19:37 - And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same [is] the father of the Moabites unto this day.
Gen 19:38 - And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same [is] the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Rth 1:4 - And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one [was] Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

Rth 4:13 ¶ So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
Rth 4:14 - And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed [be] the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
Rth 4:15 - And he shall be unto thee a restorer of [thy] life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.
Rth 4:16 - And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
Rth 4:17 - And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he [is] the father of Jesse, the father of David.​

Ok here goes, please dont burn me at the stake or accuse me of beong a heretic and banish me. I honestly believe this needs to be discussed.

The lineage you gave goes only so far as David. As for the assertion about Jesus he was not a descendant of David, but merely affiliated to him through Joseph, as is testified in Matthew 1: "that Jesus was born of Mary during her virginity, and that Joseph knew her not until she had given birth to Jesus" Now according to this statement, the lineage of Joseph can be of no avail to Jesus. It is evident too the lineage of Mary was unknown to the authors.

Even the relationship of Joseph to David is wanting in proof because there is a discrepancy between Matthew and Luke which appears clearly when we compare Matthew 1 with Luke at the end of chapter 3. I see conflicting testimonies and I belive where that is the case no belief can be attached to either statement.

The prophets on the other hand predicted the expected Messiah should be no other than a descendant of David.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Reecespieces and farouk.

The answer why the daughters did this might be found in verse 31. Where we read the eldest daughter telling the youngest there is not a man anywhere on earth to come in unto them. Considering the city they just escaped from where they had lived all their lives and everything and everyone they knew was just obliterated by fire. It may have seemed to the youngest that what the eldest said was true. Now whether the oldest daughter really believed this as well, I dont know.

The only thing I would add to this is that this event wasn't that long after the flood. If you do the math, Abraham and Noah would have known each other and I don't think it's too far fetched to say that Abraham and Lot heard Noah tell the story of the flood.

That being the case, I'm sure both women thought that God had once again destroyed the entire world because what they knew of the world was much like Noah would have described it pre-flood. That is to say, it was full of wickedness. Hey, when you grow up in an environment, you get the tendency to think that the rest of the world is like that too. It's kind of like the first time you traveled and all of a sudden your favorite radio station is gone.

As a bit more, one daughter gave birth to Moab, who was the father of the Moabites. This is what Scriptures says.

Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:

Yet I've always found this facinating,
Ruth 1:4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

Ruth, the great-grandmother of Kind David was a Moabite. :nod

 

[Sinthesis]

Ok here goes, please dont burn me at the stake or accuse me of beong a heretic and banish me. I honestly believe this needs to be discussed.

The lineage you gave goes only so far as David. As for the assertion about Jesus he was not a descendant of David, but merely affiliated to him through Joseph, as is testified in Matthew 1: "that Jesus was born of Mary during her virginity, and that Joseph knew her not until she had given birth to Jesus" Now according to this statement, the lineage of Joseph can be of no avail to Jesus. It is evident too the lineage of Mary was unknown to the authors.

Even the relationship of Joseph to David is wanting in proof because there is a discrepancy between Matthew and Luke which appears clearly when we compare Matthew 1 with Luke at the end of chapter 3. I see conflicting testimonies and I belive where that is the case no belief can be attached to either statement.

The prophets on the other hand predicted the expected Messiah should be no other than a descendant of David.

I don't want to derail this thread, so if anyone wants to know how your objections are dealt with, then here are some answers:
http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/onlylegitimatemessiah.html
http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/dec23.html
http://www.hebrewroot.com/Articles/David_v_Solomon.htm
http://mysterysolvedwithmessiahjesus.wordpress.com/category/nathan/

 

[chakham]

I don't want to derail this thread, so if anyone wants to know how your objections are dealt with, then here are some answers:
http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/onlylegitimatemessiah.html
http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/dec23.html
http://www.hebrewroot.com/Articles/David_v_Solomon.htm
http://mysterysolvedwithmessiahjesus.wordpress.com/category/nathan/

Ive read those before. By this reasoning the writers basically are acknowledging that Jesus is not of the seed of David but was adopted instead in order to fit their idea of the coming messiah.

But I am always drawn back to these words

Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause an offshoot of righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name by which she shall be called, Yehovah is our righteousness.

For thus says Yehovah; David shall never lack a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites lack a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meal offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, Thus says the Lord; If you can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be counted, nor the sand of the sea measured; so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites who minister to me.

It is David's seed which will be multiplied in order that he (David) will have a son who reign and execute judgement and righteousness in the land.

If Jesus was adopted then yes, he my be a son of Joseph but he is not of the seed of David. Something of which the internet links themselves acknowledge.

 

[Sinthesis]

Ive read those before. By this reasoning the writers basically are acknowledging that Jesus is not of the seed of David but was adopted instead in order to fit their idea of the coming messiah.
...
If Jesus was adopted then yes, he my be a son of Joseph but he is not of the seed of David. Something of which the internet links themselves acknowledge.

It is obvious you did not read the linked articles.2 Start a new thread.

 

[JLB]

Ive read those before. By this reasoning the writers basically are acknowledging that Jesus is not of the seed of David but was adopted instead in order to fit their idea of the coming messiah.

But I am always drawn back to these words

Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause an offshoot of righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name by which she shall be called, Yehovah is our righteousness.

For thus says Yehovah; David shall never lack a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites lack a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meal offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, Thus says the Lord; If you can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be counted, nor the sand of the sea measured; so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites who minister to me.

It is David's seed which will be multiplied in order that he (David) will have a son who reign and execute judgement and righteousness in the land.

If Jesus was adopted then yes, he my be a son of Joseph but he is not of the seed of David. Something of which the internet links themselves acknowledge.

saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph and Mary by [marriage] covenant were one! Therefore what was in Mary was Joseph's son by virtue of Covenant even if not by blood.

The covenant was ratified after Jesus was born.

Still the covenant was in effect before it was ratified making Jesus in the lineage of King David!

JLB