Bible Study Problem with 1 Samuel 18:10-11

[Orion]

I have a problem with the bolded section of these two verses.

10The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. 11And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice.

The NIV and KJV states it as, "an evil spirit from God". :-?

 

[Solo]

I have a problem with the bolded section of these two verses.

10The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. 11And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice.

The NIV and KJV states it as, "an evil spirit from God". :-?

Who created satan? Who allowed satan to attack Job and his family? Who is in authority over all creation for His own purpose according to His own will?

 

[Orion]

I wouldn't consider anything evil or even harmful to have come from God. How can Holy Perfection create anything evil, or knowing it will become evil, when that same being is said to "not stand anything unholy in it's presence"?

The only way one could say of God that he created Satan, knowing the role Satan would play, it would be saying essentially the same as God creating something that would be the cause of the very thing God can't abide in. For God to create that sort of existance, just so "he will have those in Heaven who really loved him", makes for a rise of many questions. :-?

 

[ChristineES]

There are times when I believe that some of the "spririts" mentioned in the Bible aren't really Spirits but states of mind. When I was in the throes of depression, I would get these periods of just plain irritation or sudden anger. Not much could soothe me. (during this time I was far away from God) yet I came back again to God and now I don't have these periods anymore.
Maybe that is what Saul had, after all he disobeyed God and walked away from Him.

 

[Orion]

I would accept your answer if it didn't say that it was FROM God. Something that caused Saul to try to pin David to the wall with a spear. . . . .2 attempts!

 

[Solo]

I wouldn't consider anything evil or even harmful to have come from God. How can Holy Perfection create anything evil, or knowing it will become evil, when that same being is said to "not stand anything unholy in it's presence"?

The only way one could say of God that he created Satan, knowing the role Satan would play, it would be saying essentially the same as God creating something that would be the cause of the very thing God can't abide in. For God to create that sort of existance, just so "he will have those in Heaven who really loved him", makes for a rise of many questions. :-?

God's ways are higher than yours and my ways. His will be done is better than your will or my will. If you do not understand something that is in God's Word, pray about it until God gives you an answer, but do not doubt God. When you come to be equal with God, then you can question his will and actions. Until then have faith that He has all things under control. :wink:

 

[stovebolts]

Orion,

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

YHWH is the creator of all things and all things, including humanity was ‘Very Good†in the eyes of YHWH.
And in this goodness, he allowed freedom for we have the right, or rather, we were given the right to choose that which is placed before us, or have faith in what we do not fully understand.

If we look at the history of Israel, we see that it was never in YHWH’s plan for his people to have a King, yet the people demanded a King, and so YHWH, against his desire for His people, gave them what they wanted, and that was Saul, a Man, but not just a Man, but a good looking fellow that stood head and shoulders above the rest. Israel was given exactly what they wanted, regardless of the warning from Samuel and God’s promise as stated in Deut 28.

So the story goes that Saul was anointed, that is to say, “Saul was prepared for the service of YHWHâ€Â. But Saul took it upon himself to disobey YHWH, just as Adam did but Saul did not repent and YHWH knowing his heart, chooses David for it is not only David’s obedience that win’s YHWH’s favor, but it is how David responds when he sins, which is unlike Saul, the one that Israel demanded.

So why does YHWH send an evil spirit to Saul? Is this really so much about Saul as we would like to think or is it more of a testing… a conditioning of David as Saul’s heart becomes exposed to those in relation to him?

Jesus shows us a model for Prayer
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

Can God tempt us, or does he allow us to be tempted? Job is a fine example with an excellent theological view on how God is a God worth serving. That Saul was sent an evil spirit should not be the focus, but rather… how does Saul respond to what has been placed before him.

God bless, my time has run out for the week.

 

[Orion]

God's ways are higher than yours and my ways. His will be done is better than your will or my will. If you do not understand something that is in God's Word, pray about it until God gives you an answer, but do not doubt God. When you come to be equal with God, then you can question his will and actions. Until then have faith that He has all things under control. :wink:

Well, I can appreciate that thought, and there really is no way to "argue" with that if every single word that is in the Bible is directly quoted from the mouth of God to the quill of the writer. I just happen to think that there has to be another explaination. . . a mistranslation somewhere in the past, or even an inability to correctly translate it into english. To me, it makes no sense for God to give Saul a spirit that becomes angry and jealous enough to try to kill David.

Of course, I think that as well where it says that "God hardened Pharoah's heart...." Probably another example of mistranslation or inability to translate it correctly into english. I bet there would be many instances of this through out the bible.

 

[protos]

I have a problem with the bolded section of these two verses.

10The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. 11And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice.

The NIV and KJV states it as, "an evil spirit from God". :-?

This is the KJV's way of telling that Person X (Saul) did something due to God. God sending an evil spirit means that Saul did something because of something God did/wanted. The ten plagues is an example where "God hardens" Pharaoh's heart, whereas it is Pharaoh's response due to God's influence.

Just read 1 Samuel 18:9-10: "And from that time on Saul kept a jealous eye on David. The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand." Isn't it clear that the "evil spirit from God," is synonymous with "temptation?" The only thing left to explain is why the phrase "from God" is used. In my opinion, it's a comparison to God's perfect commandments, so an evil spirit can only be from God, because if it wasn't from God's perfection, it wouldn't be evil (Romans 2:12).

The only way one could say of God that he created Satan, knowing the role Satan would play, it would be saying essentially the same as God creating something that would be the cause of the very thing God can't abide in. For God to create that sort of existance, just so "he will have those in Heaven who really loved him", makes for a rise of many questions.

No, that is indeed illogical. This main argument doesn't just bring the question of why God made Satan and people who will go to Hell. Also, why are there a finite number of people? Why not save more?

The answer is very easily eluded, and very elegant. Since God is love, is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, you would expect that God would set up everything so that there is as little sin as possible, right? So, everything and everyone was put in such a way by God to produce the least amount of sin. Now, you may ask, why just not create people who will go to Hell, and Satan, and the fallen angels? Seems like a double win, right? They don't go to Hell, and there is a lot less sin.

My personal opinion, it is evident that all sentient beings are to be created by God, in order to preserve His nature according to the Bible. However, as to why all sentient beings are to be made is unknown, and I really don't have much of a solution. It may be possible that it has something to do with curtailing free will. After all, if someone doesn't choose God, regardless of whether they are existent or not, God would know this (which would refute the Open Theism view), so not making them is infringing on their free will. After all, how can God convict someone of sin that they didn't do in reality? If that can be shown as logical, the number of people is the exact number of least sin, the people who will go to Hell are made because if they were made angels they would bring more sin than as people, and also Satan (and the other fallen angels), were made by God in the exact way to prevent as much sin as possible. There is no way to either prove or disprove this, but due to the axioms we are working with, God's omniscience, omnipresense, love, and omnipotence wins the argument.

 

[Orion]

I can see what you're saying here. Thanks.

 

[cyberjosh]

The NIV and KJV states it as, "an evil spirit from God".

Have you read a similar account of God allowing an lying spirit to be in the prophets of Ahab concerning whether he would win in battle or not? In that case the spirit merely volunteered of itself to make Ahab stumble and God permitted it and said "go and it will happen as you have planned". In that case God permitted rather than commanded outright. Just like God permited Satan to test Job and God knew it was a test from God, in the sense that God permitted it and was sovereign over the situation (regardless of who was doing the testing).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Ryan Collins]

I believe that when it speaks of an evil spirit from God, it means that God made Saul the way he was so that David could start his rise. Just like how God hardened Pharaoh's heart against the Egyptians, so I think God made Saul the way he was so that David could do what he did.

 

[jgredline]

I believe that when it speaks of an evil spirit from God, it means that God made Saul the way he was so that David could start his rise. Just like how God hardened Pharaoh's heart against the Egyptians, so I think God made Saul the way he was so that David could do what he did.

Look closely at the context of both of these events you mentioned.
You will notice that God simply ''affirmed'' what both Pharaoh and Saul wanted and where...

 

[Bick]

1 Sam. 18:10,11 problem

God created through Christ Jesus, the Word, the universe and all things in it.
I believe that it is God's plan to show his great love for all creation, especially the world of mankind, in the most intimate way: by being their Saviour.

He, the Lord God, could have prevented the fall of Adam and Eve by not putting the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden; Or not allowing Satan to be in the garden and speak through the serpent and deceive Eve.

God is Holy and without sin, yet the bible records a number of instances where He uses evil for His purpose, such as the incident of the evil spirit from God rushing upon Saul.

Here are a number of verses where God used, or would use evil:
Exod. 32:14; Deut. 31:17, 18, 21, 29; 1 Sam. 16:14, 19:19; Isa. 54:16

Look at the account of God hardening Pharoah's heart until the final plague of the death of the firstborn occurred and Pharoah then let the children of Israel go. Exod. ch. 7-11; Rom. 9:14-18.
Also, reading all of Rom. 9 and 10, we are told God "will have mercy on whom He has mercy, and will have compassion on whom He has compassion."

As others have pointed out, the example of Job is most pointed. After all the evils that came upon him, he said in Job 2:10, RSV, "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

As hard as it is to understand, evil may come on individuals and nations, but it is for a reason, for God uses evil for His glory, and IMO eventually, at the end of the ages, good will triumph over evil; and as Paul writes in Phil. 2:9-11, after Christ is highly exalted, and God has bestowed on him the name above every name, "..that in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Bick

 

[Heidi]

I have a problem with the bolded section of these two verses.

10The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. 11And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice.

The NIV and KJV states it as, "an evil spirit from God". :-?

Yup. God hardens hearts and God softens hearts. God is in control of how the universe runs.

 

[Orion]

Yup. God hardens hearts and God softens hearts. God is in control of how the universe runs.

Well, if that were so, then a person really wouldn't be responsible for their actions, would they? After all, who of us could resist God's power of "hardening hearts" if God choose to do so? :-?

 

[Guest]

I believe JG said it best:

Look closely at the context of both of these events you mentioned.
You will notice that God simply ''affirmed'' what both Pharaoh and Saul wanted and where...

God does not superimpose Himself on us - making us do something that we are not already thinking about or wanting to do. God will grant what we want - even if it is our carnal lusts - when we do not accept Him

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

How better it is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[cyberjosh]

Well, if that were so, then a person really wouldn't be responsible for their actions, would they? After all, who of us could resist God's power of "hardening hearts" if God choose to do so?

How asolutely amazing you should ask that question when the Bible address that exact question in just about the same wording:

Romans 9:14-34

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€Â
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€Â
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?â€Â
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?â€Â
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:


“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.â€Â
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.â€Â

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:


“ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.â€Â

29 And as Isaiah said before:


“ Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.â€Â[m]
Present Condition of Israel

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[n]
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[o] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written:

“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbing stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.â€Â

~Josh

 

[biblecatholic]

I have a problem with the bolded section of these two verses.

10The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. 11And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice.

The NIV and KJV states it as, "an evil spirit from God". :-?

it means that God has lifted some of His protection, the evil one has rushed upon him. evil is the absence of God, not apart of Him.God can do no evil. its like a Job situation

 

[onfire4christ]

For God's Glory

Bick, hit it on the mark there

Look at the account of God hardening Pharoah's heart until the final plague of the death of the firstborn occurred and Pharoah then let the children of Israel go. Exod. ch. 7-11; Rom. 9:14-18

Everything God does is for His Glory.

Remember the story of the apostle asking Christ if a blind man was blind because of the sins of the father, what did Jesus say...He said it was for His Glory.

Man brought in sin and with that death. We were put here as representatives of God, in His image and we brought in evil in this world. We have the sin in our lives now. That was not inherently in Adam or Eve. They were created perfect, just as Christ is perfect and the Father.

Just as with the Pharaoh shown above, God had chosen David to be the next King, he let Saul recieve this evil spirit, remember God chose Saul also, he was annointed by Samuel, by God's command. Just as David. But Saul chose to disobey God. and that is where the trouble started from. Disobedience is our greatest sin. The bible tells us that none of us are good and no one seeks Him out. That we don't obey His commandments.

God doesn't tempt, ever. What he does is using the temptation, makes a way out for us.

All this to say...God is Holy, righteous, and Just. He created everything, yes.
But we brought in Sin into this World. Satan, sinned against God with his pride and selfishness.

So God does use it, but in the end always for His Glory. Always.