Producing the Koran

[God Bless America]

Mr. Gabriel Ali (et al) -

Can any one share some information regarding the muslims koran. Their claim is it was written as one complete book at one time. I've searched the internet for information regarding how long it took to produce the koran, but couldn't find any information for my debate with the muslims.

They (muslims) insist and battle with me that our Bible is "corrupt" as they call it. I defend it as the word of God and it is not corrupt and have explained to them the various cannons which existed and scholars eventually weeded out the important books, until we have the final bible.

So, back to the question. Does anyone know how long it took to produce the koran and I'll accept internet information (links) so I may research them.

I'm off to argue now with them. <- for me and I ask God to give me strenght. :amen

Regards to all and thank you for any information you can provide.

Pam

 

[samuel]

Here is a whole load of information, some of which will probably leave a bad taste in muslim mouths. Or at least, get a lot of flack back your way.

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

 

[God Bless America]

Here is a whole load of information, some of which will probably leave a bad taste in muslim mouths. Or at least, get a lot of flack back your way.

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

Thank you Samuel - I will read the information.... Below this is one of "their" debate quotes..

"""The Prophet Muhammad kept scribes with him all the time to record his words and actions, but they didnt record verses on the same piece of paper because the Qurans verses were words from Gabriel and they didnt want to confuse the history bit with the words of God."""

I shall return my dear friends... keep praying for me!

All my best,
Pam

 

[samuel]

Since Muslims consider the words of Mohammed inspired, then what would be the difference. :crazy Sounds like a smoke screen to me, and we all know where smoke comes from. :o

 

[therealsuperman64]

The Koran or Qu'ran or whatever it's called is a load of crap. A Dr. Seuss book has more substance than that.

 

[Gabe]

Hi Pam,

I apologize for the late reply. It's been a while since I last visited this 'other religions' forum. The production of the Quran was not as seemless as Muslims would have you believe. You only need to look at some of the passages in the Hadith (considered by Muslims to be almost as authoritive as the Quran itself and used to determine how many times a day they should pray etc) to realise this.

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Quran. So he said to Uthman, "O chief of the believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, "Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle (SAW) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'

(33:23) Vol. 6 -Virtues of the Quran - Hadith 510 Narrated Anas bin Malik

Hadith 510 prove the following:

* There were differing versions of the Qur'an in the early years of Islam.

* Uthman ordered the Qur'an compiled into one volume.

* Some of the manuscripts were not in Muhammad's original tongue and needed to be translated.

* Uthman ordered competing versions to be burned, indicating that there were other versions in existence at the time!

* There was only one man who remembered one of the verses of the Qur'an.

Here's a link to a site which highlights many more of these hadiths which contradict the Islamic claim, that the Quran has remained unchanged: click here

As for the Muslims whom you are debating; the quote does make sense. The 'words of God' that they are referring to is in fact the Quran and the history bit is the Hadith.

Gabriel

 

[Love25]

Hi Pam,

I apologize for the late reply. It's been a while since I last visited this 'other religions' forum. The production of the Quran was not as seemless as Muslims would have you believe. You only need to look at some of the passages in the Hadith (considered by Muslims to be almost as authoritive as the Quran itself and used to determine how many times a day they should pray etc) to realise this.

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Quran. So he said to Uthman, "O chief of the believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, "Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zaid bin Thabit added, "A verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle (SAW) reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'

(33:23) Vol. 6 -Virtues of the Quran - Hadith 510 Narrated Anas bin Malik

Hadith 510 prove the following:

* There were differing versions of the Qur'an in the early years of Islam.

* Uthman ordered the Qur'an compiled into one volume.

* Some of the manuscripts were not in Muhammad's original tongue and needed to be translated.

* Uthman ordered competing versions to be burned, indicating that there were other versions in existence at the time!

* There was only one man who remembered one of the verses of the Qur'an.

Here's a link to a site which highlights many more of these hadiths which contradict the Islamic claim, that the Quran has remained unchanged: click here

As for the Muslims whom you are debating; the quote does make sense. The 'words of God' that they are referring to is in fact the Quran and the history bit is the Hadith.

Gabriel

Sorry gabriel Ali but as ex Muslim you should have known more about Holy Quran that you say you rejected:

1- Holy Quran were send with 07 different ARABIC ACCENTS which Arabs knew and understood very well, and this were becuase Arabs were different Tribes!

2- Holy Quran can easily be memorized by 05 years old child although it is written in very Hard Language and this is how it were saved, today in Present time we have offically more then 10 Million Muslims who memorize all of it with the same way prophet Mohamed (pbuh) read it, not officialy are more, beside no Muslim is Muslim unless he memorize Quran and read it each day as we dont abondon God's words!

3- When Muslim world grow and other Nations with different languages entered Islam and they didnt know Arabic well this problem occured so Authman brought written copy as you mentioned above to be more accurat and in addition brought people who memorized the whole Quran direct from Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) and they made Copy with Quraish arabic ACCENT and he ordered to destory all other readings and copies that had personal remarks made by companions in their personal copies so that nothing happen to Holy Quran same like previous scriptures!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

Their claim is it was written as one complete book at one time.

No Muslim with even basic knowledge should be claiming such a thing. They ALL know that the Quran was a series of situational revelations spanning 23 years of Muhamad's life. The Quran was revealed piece-meal (verse by verse) over this time. As Gabriel has pointed out, they may be referring to Uthman.

The evidence that the Quran was not sent down 'in one chunk' can be seen in the ahadith. The ahadith (for the most part) record the sayings and actions of Muhammad; along with the circumstances surrounding the revelation of the verses from the Quran. For example, read this hadith:

Narrated Aisha:

There was an orphan (girl) under the care of a man. He married her and she owned a date palm (garden). He married her just because of that and not because he loved her. So the Divine Verse came regarding his case: "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls..." (4.3) The sub-narrator added: I think he (i.e. another sub-narrator) said, "That orphan girl was his partner in that datepalm (garden) and in his property."

So that ahadith and others detail (and corroborate) the circumstances in which the Quran verse (Chapter 4, verse 3) was revealed. There are too many ahadith and Quran verses to list EVERY circumstance of every verse, however, but this should be enough to get you started.

They (muslims) insist and battle with me that our Bible is "corrupt" as they call it. I defend it as the word of God and it is not corrupt and have explained to them the various cannons which existed and scholars eventually weeded out the important books, until we have the final bible.

HAH! Well here's the problem for the Muslims who claim this. Their Quran does NOT say this!. Actually their Quran states that the previous scriptures (Taurat - Torah, Injil - Good news & Zabur - Psalms) are PHYSICALLY INTACT, but it charges that the Jews were corrupting the text "with their mouths" (ie. in their recitations to the illiterate people).

There is only ONE verse that they can twist to say that the Quran says the previous scriptures have been corrupted, and that is Quran 2:79. I had a look at this verse and other Quranic verses in depth here and the only conclusion is that it CANNOT be referring to the previous scriptures. Therefore, there is NOWHERE in the Quran or ahadith that state that the previous scriptures are 'corrupt'.

However this claim HAS to be made, because the Quran claims that it 'verifies' the previous scriptures (read; confirms them). Since they contradict ALL OVER THE PLACE, then, in order to get around this, they MUST claim the Quran says something that it does not!

So, back to the question. Does anyone know how long it took to produce the koran and I'll accept internet information (links) so I may research them.

The Revelations came down over 23 years and only stopped because Muhammad died. Gabriel has given you info about Uthman (who you can research further) to learn about the actual "official Quran" (in writing). Al Quran means "the recitation" and the Quran was originally just an oral recitation and wasn't written down (in one place).

 

[Love25]

Their claim is it was written as one complete book at one time.

No Muslim with even basic knowledge should be claiming such a thing. They ALL know that the Quran was a series of situational revelations spanning 23 years of Muhamad's life. The Quran was revealed piece-meal (verse by verse) over this time. As Gabriel has pointed out, they may be referring to Uthman.

The evidence that the Quran was not sent down 'in one chunk' can be seen in the ahadith. The ahadith (for the most part) record the sayings and actions of Muhammad; along with the circumstances surrounding the revelation of the verses from the Quran. For example, read this hadith:
[quote="Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 97":2oibgfg7]
Narrated Aisha:

There was an orphan (girl) under the care of a man. He married her and she owned a date palm (garden). He married her just because of that and not because he loved her. So the Divine Verse came regarding his case: "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls..." (4.3) The sub-narrator added: I think he (i.e. another sub-narrator) said, "That orphan girl was his partner in that datepalm (garden) and in his property."

So that ahadith and others detail (and corroborate) the circumstances in which the Quran verse (Chapter 4, verse 3) was revealed. There are too many ahadith and Quran verses to list EVERY circumstance of every verse, however, but this should be enough to get you started.

They (muslims) insist and battle with me that our Bible is "corrupt" as they call it. I defend it as the word of God and it is not corrupt and have explained to them the various cannons which existed and scholars eventually weeded out the important books, until we have the final bible.

HAH! Well here's the problem for the Muslims who claim this. Their Quran does NOT say this!. Actually their Quran states that the previous scriptures (Taurat - Torah, Injil - Good news & Zabur - Psalms) are PHYSICALLY INTACT, but it charges that the Jews were corrupting the text "with their mouths" (ie. in their recitations to the illiterate people).

There is only ONE verse that they can twist to say that the Quran says the previous scriptures have been corrupted, and that is Quran 2:79. I had a look at this verse and other Quranic verses in depth here and the only conclusion is that it CANNOT be referring to the previous scriptures. Therefore, there is NOWHERE in the Quran or ahadith that state that the previous scriptures are 'corrupt'.

However this claim HAS to be made, because the Quran claims that it 'verifies' the previous scriptures (read; confirms them). Since they contradict ALL OVER THE PLACE, then, in order to get around this, they MUST claim the Quran says something that it does not!

So, back to the question. Does anyone know how long it took to produce the koran and I'll accept internet information (links) so I may research them.

The Revelations came down over 23 years and only stopped because Muhammad died. Gabriel has given you info about Uthman (who you can research further) to learn about the actual "official Quran" (in writing). Al Quran means "the recitation" and the Quran was originally just an oral recitation and wasn't written down (in one place).[/quote:2oibgfg7]

First there is difference between Holy Quran is revealed to us in 23 years and between if it were complete before it it revealed to us, and the Fact that it were revelead part by part during 23 years in different occasions then when all this gathered together and shown in harmony and in Unique way this is Miracle itself and Prove that it is something that no Human can produce anything like that, and this is Nothing hard for our CREATOR!

For second part that you say it is stopped becuase Mohamed (pbuh) died you are right but this is becuase he himself told us that he completed to us our religion:

After praising, and thanking Allah Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) said:

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn ‘Abd’al Muttalib (Prophet’s uncle) shall henceforth be waived…

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before ALLAH and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

(Reference: See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.)

May Allah (swt) guide you all!

Peace

 

[Gabe]

Love25:

When replying to the content of a post in general and not aiming your answers at a specific point, could you please not quote the entire post and simply address your answer to the poster. This will make it easier for others to read. Thank you.

 

[Love25]

Love25:

When replying to the content of a post in general and not aiming your answers at a specific point, could you please not quote the entire post and simply address your answer to the poster. This will make it easier for others to read. Thank you.

Ok, I am just not used to post here yet!

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

Love25: That "last sermon" is fake! The real last sermon is quoted in its entirety in Tabari. Here it is:

"O people, listen to my words. I do not know whether I shall ever meet you again in this place after this year. O people, your blood and your property are sacrosanct until you meet your Lord, just as this day and this month of yours are sacred. Surely you will meet your Lord and He will question you about your deeds. I have [already] made this known. Let he who has a pledge return it to the one who entrusted him with it; all usury is abolished, but your capital belongs to you. Wrong not and you shall not be wronged. Allah has decreed that there will be no usury, and the usury of Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib is abolished, all of it. All blood shed in the pre-Islamic days is to be left unavenged. The first such claim I revoke is that of Ibn Rabiah b. al-Harith b. Abd al-Muttalib, who was nursed among the Banu Layth and was slain by the Banu Hudhayl. His is the first blood shed in the pre-Islamic days with which I shall set an example. O people, indeed Satan despairs of ever being worshipped in this land of yours. He will be pleased, however, if he is obeyed in a thing other than that, in matters you minimize. So beware of him in your religion, O people, intercalculating a month is an increase in unbelief whereby the unbelievers go astray; one year they make it profane, and hallow it another [in order] to agree with the number that Allah has hallowed, and so profane what Allah has hallowed, and hallow what Allah has made profane. Time has completed its cycle [and is] as it was on the day that Allah created the heavens and the earth. The number of the months with Allah is twelve; [they were] in the Book of Allah on the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred, the three consecutive [months] and the Rajab [which is the month of] Mudar, which is between Jumada and Sha’ban.


Now then, O people, you have a right over your wives and they have a right over you. You have [the right] that they should not cause anyone of whom you dislike to tread on your beds; and that they should not commit any open indecency. If they do, then Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain from [evil], they have the right to their food and clothing in accordance with the custom. Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves. You have taken them only as a trust from Allah, and you have made the enjoyment of their persons lawful by the word of Allah, so understand and listen to my words, O people. I have conveyed the Message, and have left you with something which, if you hold fast to it, you will never go astray; that is, the Book of Allah and the sunnah of his Prophet. Listen to my words, O people, for I have conveyed the Message and understand [it]. Know for certain that every Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, and that all Muslims are brethren. It is not lawful for a person [to take] from his brother except that which he has given him willingly, so do not wrong yourselves. O Allah, have I not conveyed the message?"
Source

 

[Love25]

Love25: That "last sermon" is fake! The real last sermon is quoted in its entirety in Tabari. Here it is:

If you ask Al Tabari about sources I gave:

(Reference: See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.)

He will tell you dont waste time of Muslims becuase what you do is same like you invent something and say this is what Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) said!

As I said non Muslim are soo desperate that they try to find anything in not authnetic Hadith which means: Fabircated, inserted, invented have no source etc....

Peace

Peace

 

[Love25]

Love25: That "last sermon" is fake! The real last sermon is quoted in its entirety in Tabari. Here it is:

And by the way Al tabari wrote book were he colected all kind Hadith of Hadith including weak, very weak, invented, inserted, fake etc......

Peace