Purgatory

[Mungo]

In the thread Understanding Catholicism - Mary and the Saints, wondering made this comment to which Niblo and myself made replies.

It seems to me that if the CC wants to come to terms with a doctrine that took hundreds of years to develop and did NOT exist in the Early Church Fathers writings, they will have to do away with confession in some way, and, eventually, with purgatory.

Although how this could happen I can't fathom right now.

I wonder what @Niblo thinks about this...

I thought it better for the topic of Purgatory to have a thread of its own so I have moved the replies to here.

 

[Niblo]

Due to the teachings of the necessity for confession and two different levels of sin,
the CC necessarily believes that we die with sin that is not confessed to a priest.

As Revelation states, nothing unclean will go to h eaven - Rev. 21:27
This uncleanliness must be purged...the verb of purgatory.
Souls are made clean in purgatory.

This, of course, renders Jesus' sacrifice of no effect since it is still necessary to "clean" ourselves.
You posted a perfect verse, as usual.

It seems to me that if the CC wants to come to terms with a doctrine that took hundreds of years to develop and did NOT exist in the Early Church Fathers writings, they will have to do away with confession in some way, and, eventually, with purgatory.

Although how this could happen I can't fathom right now.

I wonder what Niblo thinks about this...

Good morning, wondering.

I apologise for this delayed reply.

As you know. the existence of purgatory is a dogma of the CC, defined by the Second Council of Lyons (1274):

‘If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments.

The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.’ (Denzinger 464).

The dogma was reaffirmed at the Council of Florence (1438-1445):

‘It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church.’ (Denzinger 693).

The Second Vatican Council also reaffirmed belief in the ‘Church Suffering’; declaring that it: ‘Accepts with great devotion this venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory or who, having died, are still being purified.’ (‘Dogmatic Constitution on the Church: V!!, 51’)

The following verses are offered as ‘scriptural proof’:

‘For the foundation, nobody can lay any other than the one which has already been laid, that is Jesus Christ. On this foundation you can build in gold, silver and jewels, or in wood, grass and straw, but whatever the material, the work of each builder is going to be clearly revealed when the day comes. That day will begin with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If his structure stands up to it, he will get his wages; if it is burnt down, he will be the loser, and though he is saved himself, it will be as one who has gone through fire.’ (1 Corinthians 3:11–15).

And:

‘Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. I tell you solemnly, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.’ (Matthew 5:25–26).

In the Jewish Encyclopaedia (1906 Edition) we read:

‘An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he (Judas) had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.

‘The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6).

‘The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24). The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory (' Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).’

Continued:

 

[Niblo]

The following are offered as proofs from tradition (from the Fathers; all emphases are mine):

From Tertullian:

‘That allegory of the Lord (Mt 5:25–26) . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning: . . . (Beware unless, as) a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . he deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hades, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting meaning than this? What a truer interpretation?’ (‘Treatise on the Soul’; 210 CE).

From St Gregory of Nyssa:

‘If a man distinguishes in himself what is peculiarly human from what is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, and overcome the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of irrational things, he may afterward, in a very different manner, be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire’ (‘Sermon on the Dead’; c382 CE).

From St. John Chrysostom:

‘Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them, since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others?’ (‘Homilies on First Corinthians 41:8; c 392 CE).

From St. Augustine of Hippo:

‘Temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains that are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.’ (‘City of God 21:13; c419 CE).

And again:

It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion to whether they loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case for those of whom it is said that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God, unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them.’ (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity’; 421 CE).

In this passage, Augustine is speculating on the exact nature of the purification process. The CC has made no formal declaration on this; nor on its duration. It is commonly held that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.

And again:

‘During the time, moreover, that intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction in proportion to the merit it earned by the life it led on earth. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead are benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms in the church on their behalf. But these services are of advantage only to those who during their lives have earned such merit that services of this kind can help them. For there is a manner of life that is neither so good as not to require these services after death, nor so bad that such services are of no avail after death.’ (‘Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity’).

Against those (such as yourself) who argue that the dogma of purgatory implies that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām)’s sacrifice was not sufficient – that his death did not complete the work of redemption – it can be said that this very sacrifice made purgatory possible.

Purgatory does not imply a failure on the part of Yeshua, but a success, in that without his sacrifice, there could be reconciliation with the Beloved at all.

I incline towards an Islamic notion (not a formal teaching, as far as I’m aware) that on the Day of Judgement, the Beloved will have a one-to-one with each of us, and will remind us of all the sins we have ever committed – including the forgotten ones! He will ask ‘Did you do this?’ And those who – burning in their embarrassment – admit to their guilt, and ask for forgiveness, will indeed be forgiven. This notion is in accord with the Quranic teaching that the Beloved is the ‘Lord of Mercy’ and the ‘Giver of Mercy’; the One whose mercy overcomes His wrath.

Blessings.

 

[Mungo]

The following are offered as proofs from tradition (from the Fathers; all emphases are mine):

From Tertullian:

‘That allegory of the Lord (Mt 5:25–26) . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning: . . . (Beware unless, as) a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . he deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hades, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting meaning than this? What a truer interpretation?’ (‘Treatise on the Soul’; 210 CE).

From St Gregory of Nyssa:

‘If a man distinguishes in himself what is peculiarly human from what is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, and overcome the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of irrational things, he may afterward, in a very different manner, be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire’ (‘Sermon on the Dead’; c382 CE).

From St. John Chrysostom:

‘Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them, since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others?’ (‘Homilies on First Corinthians 41:8; c 392 CE).

From St. Augustine of Hippo:

‘Temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains that are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.’ (‘City of God 21:13; c419 CE).

And again:

It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion to whether they loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case for those of whom it is said that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God, unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them.’ (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity’; 421 CE).

In this passage, Augustine is speculating on the exact nature of the purification process. The CC has made no formal declaration on this; nor on its duration. It is commonly held that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.

And again:

‘During the time, moreover, that intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction in proportion to the merit it earned by the life it led on earth. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead are benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms in the church on their behalf. But these services are of advantage only to those who during their lives have earned such merit that services of this kind can help them. For there is a manner of life that is neither so good as not to require these services after death, nor so bad that such services are of no avail after death.’ (‘Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity’).

Against those (such as yourself) who argue that the dogma of purgatory implies that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām)’s sacrifice was not sufficient – that his death did not complete the work of redemption – it can be said that this very sacrifice made purgatory possible.

Purgatory does not imply a failure on the part of Yeshua, but a success, in that without his sacrifice, there could be reconciliation with the Beloved at all.

I incline towards an Islamic notion (not a formal teaching, as far as I’m aware) that on the Day of Judgement, the Beloved will have a one-to-one with each of us, and will remind us of all the sins we have ever committed – including the forgotten ones! He will ask ‘Did you do this?’ And those who – burning in their embarrassment – admit to their guilt, and ask for forgiveness, will indeed be forgiven. This notion is in accord with the Quranic teaching that the Beloved is the ‘Lord of Mercy’ and the ‘Giver of Mercy’; the One whose mercy overcomes His wrath.

Blessings.

To add a few to your list of quotes.
Abercius
"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 180]).

Tertullian
"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

Tertullian
"A woman, after the death of her husband...prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1-2 [post A.D. 213]).

Lactantius
"But also, when God will judge the just, it is likewise in fire that he will try them. At that time, they whose sins are uppermost, either because of their gravity or their number, will be drawn together by the fire and will be burned. Those, however, who have been imbued with full justice and maturity of virtue, will not feel that fire; for they have something of God in them which will repel and turn back the strength of the flame" (The Divine Institutions 7:21:6 [inter A.D. 304-310]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. I know that there are many who are saying this: 'If a soul departs from this world with sins, what does it profit it to be remembered in the prayer?' Well, if a king were to banish certain persons who had offended him, and those intervening for them were to plait a crown and offer it to him on behalf of the ones who were being punished, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we too offer prayers to him for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners. We do not plait a crown, but offer up Christ who has been sacrificed for our sins; and we thereby propitiate the benevolent God for them as well as for ourselves" (Ibid. 5:10).

 

[Mungo]

Good morning, wondering.

I apologise for this delayed reply.

As you know. the existence of purgatory is a dogma of the CC, defined by the Second Council of Lyons (1274):

‘If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments.

The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.’ (Denzinger 464).

The dogma was reaffirmed at the Council of Florence (1438-1445):

‘It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church.’ (Denzinger 693).

The Second Vatican Council also reaffirmed belief in the ‘Church Suffering’; declaring that it: ‘Accepts with great devotion this venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory or who, having died, are still being purified.’ (‘Dogmatic Constitution on the Church: V!!, 51’)

The following verses are offered as ‘scriptural proof’:

‘For the foundation, nobody can lay any other than the one which has already been laid, that is Jesus Christ. On this foundation you can build in gold, silver and jewels, or in wood, grass and straw, but whatever the material, the work of each builder is going to be clearly revealed when the day comes. That day will begin with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If his structure stands up to it, he will get his wages; if it is burnt down, he will be the loser, and though he is saved himself, it will be as one who has gone through fire.’ (1 Corinthians 3:11–15).

And:

‘Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. I tell you solemnly, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.’ (Matthew 5:25–26).

In the Jewish Encyclopaedia (1906 Edition) we read:

‘An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he (Judas) had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.

‘The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6).

‘The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24). The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory (' Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).’

Continued:

In addition to the Jews some Orthodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(https://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses)

St. Mark of Ephesus was the main spokesman and theologian for the Orthodox at the Council of Ferrara in 1438. He also wrote that “the souls of people who die with unforgiven minor sins will experience spiritual sufferings in the afterlife, which, however, are not divine punishments but self-inflicted consequences of these sins”

Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms, my emphasis)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church,my emphasis)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1080697/posts

 

[Niblo]

In addition to the Jews some Orthodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(https://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses)

St. Mark of Ephesus was the main spokesman and theologian for the Orthodox at the Council of Ferrara in 1438. He also wrote that “the souls of people who die with unforgiven minor sins will experience spiritual sufferings in the afterlife, which, however, are not divine punishments but self-inflicted consequences of these sins”

Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms, my emphasis)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church,my emphasis)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1080697/posts

Spot on in both posts

 

[GodsGrace]

The following are offered as proofs from tradition (from the Fathers; all emphases are mine):

From Tertullian:

‘That allegory of the Lord (Mt 5:25–26) . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning: . . . (Beware unless, as) a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . he deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hades, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting meaning than this? What a truer interpretation?’ (‘Treatise on the Soul’; 210 CE).

From St Gregory of Nyssa:

‘If a man distinguishes in himself what is peculiarly human from what is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, and overcome the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of irrational things, he may afterward, in a very different manner, be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire’ (‘Sermon on the Dead’; c382 CE).

From St. John Chrysostom:

‘Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them, since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others?’ (‘Homilies on First Corinthians 41:8; c 392 CE).

From St. Augustine of Hippo:

‘Temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains that are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.’ (‘City of God 21:13; c419 CE).

And again:

It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion to whether they loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case for those of whom it is said that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God, unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them.’ (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity’; 421 CE).

In this passage, Augustine is speculating on the exact nature of the purification process. The CC has made no formal declaration on this; nor on its duration. It is commonly held that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.

And again:

‘During the time, moreover, that intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction in proportion to the merit it earned by the life it led on earth. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead are benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms in the church on their behalf. But these services are of advantage only to those who during their lives have earned such merit that services of this kind can help them. For there is a manner of life that is neither so good as not to require these services after death, nor so bad that such services are of no avail after death.’ (‘Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity’).

Against those (such as yourself) who argue that the dogma of purgatory implies that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām)’s sacrifice was not sufficient – that his death did not complete the work of redemption – it can be said that this very sacrifice made purgatory possible.

Purgatory does not imply a failure on the part of Yeshua, but a success, in that without his sacrifice, there could be reconciliation with the Beloved at all.

I incline towards an Islamic notion (not a formal teaching, as far as I’m aware) that on the Day of Judgement, the Beloved will have a one-to-one with each of us, and will remind us of all the sins we have ever committed – including the forgotten ones! He will ask ‘Did you do this?’ And those who – burning in their embarrassment – admit to their guilt, and ask for forgiveness, will indeed be forgiven. This notion is in accord with the Quranic teaching that the Beloved is the ‘Lord of Mercy’ and the ‘Giver of Mercy’; the One whose mercy overcomes His wrath.

Blessings.

Great reply.
Been off line for about 2 weeks.
Later...

 

[Niblo]

Great reply.
Been off line for about 2 weeks.
Later...

Thank you.

Welcome back