Question about Jesus in the garden of Gesthemane.

[Orion]

I have a few questions about Jesus in the garden of Gesthemane, the first one is not the main topic, but I've always wondered it.

1. Jesus was a lone in the garden of Gesthemane, just before being arrested. Who heard his words, in order to write them down?

The main points of this topic:

2. Who was Jesus praying to?

3. What are we to do with "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, but not MY will but YOUR will be done."

Number 3 is the most important topic. It would seem that Jesus actually didn't want to go through with the plan, . . . didn't want to die for us, but was just being obedient. . . . . . but to whom, . . . if he is God? Also, if "I and the Father are one", . . . . .then how can you have two seperate wills in play here? Jesus's will, . . . "let this cup pass from me", . . . . and the supposed will of God that he suffer for the sins of man. Isn't this a small example of a "divided house", even though Jesus became obedient, . . . it wasn't HIS will to do it. :-?

 

[handy]

He wasn't completely alone, Peter and the Zebedee brothers were with Him. They just kept falling asleep. Either what is recorded is what they heard while they were awake, or the Holy Spirit revealed the truth. I lean toward the former. The honest admission of sleeping seems very Peter-like.

Jesus was praying to the Father.

Of course He didn't want to go through with being crucified. As I mentioned on a different thread, He wasn't crazy. I mean, really, would you?

Jesus and the Father were one in purpose, but that was because Jesus submitted His will to the Father. This is the greatest evidence for the Trinity, that the Father and the Son have different wills. There are some who think that Jesus is Father, Son and Spirit. But He cannot be, for as you see, Jesus submitted His will to the Father.

Too many times, folks search the Gospels for 'proof' that Jesus was God or wasn't God. I find the Book of Hebrews to be the most clear on exactly what the relationship between Father, Son and Spirit is. Jesus was before and above the angels, but He humbled Himself, taking on the form of a Man to become the Lamb of God. The only thing is, the Book of Hebrews isn't exactly an 'easy' read. But, it's well worth the time it takes to study Hebrews. It is the most clear on exactly who Jesus was and what He came to do, and it is also quite clear on both the One God/Three Persons.

It would only be a 'divided house' if Jesus didn't go through with it. But, He did.

 

[BobRyan]

Amen -- what Dora said!

As for WHO was writing --

1. Jesus was on earth for 40 days after His resurrection with His disciples.
2. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God" 2Tim 3:16 -- God "saw".

And notice - Moses writes about the 7 literal days (evenings and mornings) of Creation week -- clearly he was not there in person.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Imagican]

I have a few questions about Jesus in the garden of Gesthemane, the first one is not the main topic, but I've always wondered it.

1. Jesus was a lone in the garden of Gesthemane, just before being arrested. Who heard his words, in order to write them down?


OBVIOUSLY Jesus was NOT alone.

The main points of this topic:

2. Who was Jesus praying to?

Jesus was praying to God; His Father.

3. What are we to do with "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, but not MY will but YOUR will be done."

Christ KNEW 'what' was IN STORE for Him. He would have done ANYTHING other than FACE what He MUST. But, He WAS willing to 'face it' regardless of the pain or torment so long as IT WAS the Father's will.

Most that believe that Jesus WAS God Himself are UNABLE to understand that SACRIFICE that was offered By God through His Son. No different than what Abraham was WILLING to do in the sacrifice of HIS OWN SON. God SPARED Abraham what He PERFORMED Himself.

Number 3 is the most important topic. It would seem that Jesus actually didn't want to go through with the plan, . . . didn't want to die for us, but was just being obedient. . . . . . but to whom, . . . if he is God? Also, if "I and the Father are one", . . . . .then how can you have two seperate wills in play here? Jesus's will, . . . "let this cup pass from me", . . . . and the supposed will of God that he suffer for the sins of man. Isn't this a small example of a "divided house", even though Jesus became obedient, . . . it wasn't HIS will to do it. :-?

No, He DID 'want' to do what He was SENT to do. His CONCERN was 'whether' He would HAVE the strength to GO THROUGH with it without FAILING His Father. It's difficult for ANY of us to KNOW what we WILL do even when we KNOW what's comming. Some are able to go to the gallows with their honor intact. Some go 'kicking and screaming'. Even though He KNEW what was in store for Him, He did NOT KNOW that He would be ABLE to have the strength to fulfill it.

Most would deny this for the simple sake of Christ BEING God. But Christ was The Son and IN THE FLESH. He overcame temptation when it was simply a matter of will. But NOW He was to FACE punishment for ALL the sins of mankind. That was a 'burden' that WE are incapable of even understanding, yet HE KNEW what He was being asked to DO. NO ONE 'made' Him SO anything. What He did He did willingly through His Love for the Father and His love for US.

Being as He WAS instructed by The Father as to WHAT He was to DO, even then, there was NO WAY for Him to fathom EXACTLY what it would FEEL like to suffer so. It had NOT happened YET and this is 'why' He asked the question that you posed. if there be ANY OTHER way to fulfill His purpose, let it be done THAT way instead of what He KNEW He faced. But, to SHOW His love and obedience, you clearly SEE that He did NOT rebel in the least but offered, "Let THY will be done''. TOTAL submission to His Father for HIS sake and OURS.

MEC

 

[BobRyan]

Actually the problem he was facing is written in scripture -- Jesus tells his disciples that they will abandon him in the hour of crises but that "I am not alone" for the Father was always with Him.

But notice on the Cross "My God my God why have YOU forsaken Me?".

Jesus was going through the suffering and torment of the 2nd death AND he was also going through the separation from God experienced by the lost sinner during the 2nd death.

I was more fully realizing that on the way to Gethsemane so He said "My soul is sorrowful even unto Death" -- He was not being over dramatic -- but accurate.

So did He "fear" that he might not make it? -- possibly

Did He also fear the loss of relationship "oneness" that He had always known? possibly.

But his "choice" was to follow at the direction of the Father "no matter what".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[wavy]

1. Jesus was a lone in the garden of Gesthemane, just before being arrested. Who heard his words, in order to write them down?

it's been said elsewhere that the 'big three' were with jesus in the 'garden of gesthemane' (which misnomer is actually a conflation of the synoptic and johannine traditions). however, according to the synoptic tradition, jesus did go a ways off when he prayed. no one would have heard him (see mk xiv.35, mt xxvi.39, lk xxii.41).

in john the scene changes. jesus is in a garden and the tradition about his fear of death, sequestered prayers, and divergent will is completely omitted. in john, jesus is always in concert with the father's will and cannot contradict it (cf. jn viii.29). notice also that he does not have to be betrayed with a kiss, as in the synoptics, but openly admits who he was.

The main points of this topic:

2. Who was Jesus praying to?

god. but since john holds a much loftier christology, jesus doesn't pray apprehensively concerning his death at all. he is in complete agreement with god (since in john he is placed completely on god's level), and jesus' death is both his and the father's glorification (see jn xii.28 & xvii.5).

3. What are we to do with "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, but not MY will but YOUR will be done."

again, this is synoptic. admittedly, john does preserve the tradition about jesus being a bit troubled...but he immediately salvages his high christology by quoting christ as saying that he wouldn't even ask the father to save him. here is the verse (jn xii.27, right after jesus enters jerusalem):


Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.


obviously john was familiar with the synoptic tradition (or a similar one) and rejects it. the answer to this rhetorical question is no.

Number 3 is the most important topic. It would seem that Jesus actually didn't want to go through with the plan, . . . didn't want to die for us, but was just being obedient. . . . . . but to whom, . . . if he is God? Also, if "I and the Father are one", . . . . .then how can you have two seperate wills in play here? Jesus's will, . . . "let this cup pass from me", . . . . and the supposed will of God that he suffer for the sins of man. Isn't this a small example of a "divided house", even though Jesus became obedient, . . . it wasn't HIS will to do it. :-?

this is certainly a dilemma for those who view the gospels as inextricable divine documents that are all aware of each other and contain no disagreement...but the synoptics do not have the same christology as john does, nor the same viewpoint of jesus' exploits as a whole, nor indeed the same tradition. for john, jesus pretty much didn't have a distinct will of his own that could possibly disagree with god's (see jn v.30 and verse cited above). why? in the johannine gospel, jesus and god are one. in the synoptics jesus is more of an elevated man with super-powers than a pre-existent entity sharing the very nature of god (see john i.1).

~eric

 

[BobRyan]

1. Jesus was a lone in the garden of Gesthemane, just before being arrested. Who heard his words, in order to write them down?

it's been said elsewhere that the 'big three' were with jesus in the 'garden of gesthemane' (which misnomer is actually a conflation of the synoptic and johannine traditions). however, according to the synoptic tradition, jesus did go a ways off when he prayed. no one would have heard him (see mk xiv.35, mt xxvi.39, lk xxii.41).

1. There is no "no one would have heard him" in scripture. Making it up does not change that fact.

2. The bible is given by "inspiration from God" not by travelocity reporters so to speak. (see 2Peter 1 and 2Tim 3:16

3. That means we have no basis for the cut-paste approach to the Word of God.

in john the scene changes. jesus is in a garden and the tradition about his fear of death, sequestered prayers, and divergent will is completely omitted.

There is no "fear of death" mentioned by Jesus. Again -- inserting things does not help your case.

in john, jesus is always in concert with the father's will and cannot contradict it (cf. jn viii.29). notice also that he does not have to be betrayed with a kiss, as in the synoptics, but openly admits who he was.

Jesus says "My God My God why have you forsaken me?" -- his trial involved much more than "just dying".


Christ's prayer is "To the Father" as HE says "Father if it be possible" let this cup pass from Me. As He says "Father into thy hands I commit my spirit" and as the Father says at Jesus' Baptism "This is my beloved Son -- hear him".

The constant efforts of those who wish to slice and dice scipture to cut it down to their image of God has never been compelling -- though it has always been "transparent".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[wavy]

1. There is no "no one would have heard him" in scripture. Making it up does not change that fact.

If I may, perchance, refer you back to my original post wherein were contained no less than three bible verse references explaining that Jesus was alone while he was praying, thus going unheard...

2. The bible is given by "inspiration from God" not by travelocity reporters so to speak. (see 2Peter 1 and 2Tim 3:16

I was reading a website which lists the top 100 fundamentally absurd Christian quotes from chatrooms and message boards. One of them went something like: 'To say that the bible contradicts itself completely goes against the word of the bible!'

I don't need to elaborate further. The absurdity is express...

3. That means we have no basis for the cut-paste approach to the Word of God.

'Cut-paste' assumes the bible's complete unity before it is proven and is against the evidence to the contrary that the bible is a collection of documents written independently...

There is no "fear of death" mentioned by Jesus. Again -- inserting things does not help your case.

I think praying that something unfortunate or painful won't happen to you is an obvious indication that you're afraid...(not to mention the sweating drops of blood, and the being 'distressed and troubled', etc....)

Jesus says "My God My God why have you forsaken me?" -- his trial involved much more than "just dying".

I wrote:

in john, jesus is always in concert with the father's will and cannot contradict it (cf. jn viii.29). notice also that he does not have to be betrayed with a kiss, as in the synoptics, but openly admits who he was.

How is the above quote germane to what I said?


Thanks,
~Eric