Question on the Law

[Not_Now.Soon]

I want to say first that I don't understand the most laws in the Torah. I do understand some applications. Dietary laws and a few other clean/unclean laws have a practical application to keep the people healthy, as well as teach them to be holy and not like the other nations. Laws on sacrifices were a means for celebration, repentance, and giving the share of wealth and food to the priests. They were also a means to be connected to God, and with a Christian lens they were also a pointer to Jesus. Moral laws were for our benefit, our obedience to God, and for a the benefit of a healthy society as well.

But the laws that I've had to try and struggle with are the ones that most everyone does. The laws that govern the punishments for disobeying the laws. Recently, while reading Leviticus, I've crossed the 20th chapter that details several punishments and was troubled enough by them. Wondered what the reason for one law to have a steep fine, one law to have excommunication, and one law to have the death penitality. Expecially with regards to what laws give the death penitality.

That's the question I have for anyone here who might know the answer. Any explainations to why any of the laws got the punishments they were given. But in particular the ones that require death.

The range I got for the death penitality seemed to be about sexual sins, worshiping idols, being a false prophet or a medium, apostasy, practicing magic, blasphemy, children sacrifices to Molech, murder, being rebellious to your parents, cursing your parents, striking your parents, breaking the sabbath, and a few more.

Most of those are really bad, and I agree they should be punished, if not severely with capital punishment. But some of those such as being a rebellious child and breaking sabbath seem severe. Others seems out of sorts when compairing them to other laws such as murder requires death, but if it's a slave that's killed all you need to do is pay a fine. Sexual sins are given the death penitality, unless they are done to a slave or to an unmarried woman. Then there's a fine or there's a requirement to marry the woman that was potentially raped.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I don't know if I've written enough posts to be able to post a link to an article, but if so there's one I found before I posted this question to all of you here.

http://tcapologetics.org/old-testament-law-and-punishment/

In the article the author explains his understanding of the laws that require the death penalty. One of which says the requirements to make a case for the death penalty, and the other ways to pay for the crime made the penalty rare. Another explaination was that these laws had the purpose of reforming Isreal and changing them away from the practices of the nation's around them. With that second explaination, the idea is that the laws were an ongoing plan God had, not the final goal, and that the people in Israel knew not to take them literally. Because of the second explanation I'm not as ready to accept the author's perspective, at least not yet. Which is why I'm hoping to get more input from the community of believers here. A lot of you seem to be well studied on different aspects of the bible.

 

[Eugene]

.
My thoughts as to when man first received the law?
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The law revealed what God is in knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree . .
Was man going to be able to be able keep the law? Not to my thinking; he only now realized he was naked. (Gen 3:7). God made him a covering; the first shed blood? It seems Abel knew the correct sacrifice; the only one that pleased God. (Gen 4:4)

The law is a ministration of death.
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones . .
Its purpose? Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed (Jesus) should come . .
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

You wrote of sin: “Most of those are really bad, and I agree they should be punished, if not severely with capital punishment.”
They were punished when Jesus took our place on the cross. We read in 1 Cor 10:11, Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
The types we see in the Old Testament are there to teach us that we need Jesus through faith. They didn’t keep the law and neither do we. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Again the purpose of the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

I've studied Jewish Law and the best teachers are those who are bound by it... The Jews

Chabad.org is a great resource and they have the Bible with commentary from an esteemed Rabbi named Rashi. This is a good start. If your really into Torah studies and want deeper meat, get Torah commentary be Ramban. It covers everything you've asked including "paying a fine for killing your slave". It's not what you think.... Not even close

Enjoy your studies

 

[LovethroughDove]

for a the benefit of a healthy society as well.

Leviticus 20:14 so that no wickedness will be among you.

Sin can spread like a wildfire. Before Jesus, sin would only increase without hope of getting better.

Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased more (enter Jesus)

It would've benefited all society to have the law, even for those breaking the law. (cause their sin would've only increased) Go to judgment before only things got worse.

 

[stovebolts]

Leviticus 20:14 so that no wickedness will be among you.

Sin can spread like a wildfire. Before Jesus, sin would only increase without hope of getting better.

Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased more (enter Jesus)

It would've benefited all society to have the law, even for those breaking the law. (cause their sin would've only increased) Go to judgment before only things got worse.

I hope you are not reading those passages with the idea that sin increased as in the law caused more sin. On the contrary. The Law simply showed what sin was. Where is it written, "where there is no law, there are no..."
Can you get a speeding ticket where there is no speed limit? No. One cannot trespass where there are no restrictions. Put up a speed limit, and it's likely it it will have a trespass. This naturally causes an increase in trespass

Prior to the Law (as it were) there were only 8 laws which man could Trespass. The Jews went into covenant at Mt Sinai and agreed to ta total of 614 laws which the non Jews were never under

Thus, the Jews caused an increase due to the simple difference between 8 laws and 614 laws

 

[Edward]

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.)/

God needed for us to have the law, so He could begin keeping records. Man needed the law so that he could know if he was sinning...guidelines for man.

There's a lot of confusion about if we are under the Law or not. Is the OT valid to us modern day Christians or not? We;;. yes and no. The first thing to do is to throw extreme thinking out the window (that we're not under the law doesn't mean that you have a blank check to sin. That we are under the law, doesn't mean that we have to keep all of those 600 and some odd culture-specific laws either.)

God does not change, so his precepts and wisdom from the OT very much apply today. The Bible isn't two books, old & new, it's one book. When we accept the Lord into our life as our Lord & Savior, one begins to be transformed and renewed...leading one down a path where one will not transgress the commandments, naturally. IOW, to stop sinning. We're now...not subject to the law, because we walk above the Law, guided by His Holy Spirit. When we're led of the Spirit...one wont sin naturally. It's pretty easy to understand, really, if one throws out the extreme thinking.

This is not to say however, that now we have to keep all of the obscure dietary laws and so forth, that's extreme thinking also. It shouldn't be called the "new Covenant", but rather the "modified covenant", so quit stressing about not wearing a prayer shawl or something lol. God is a just and righteous God, one which understands that it may be a wee bit unrealistic to expect people to be able to follow all those laws. Dietary laws in particular, I doubt one could ever go out to eat if they had to observe the dietary laws. I think this this OT law thing is sort've like the Sabbath day law...The Sabbath day law was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. There's leeway there. Same thing with the 600 laws. If God has shown us anything, it's that He's as reasonable as they come.

When man is in a fallen state, he needs the laws to guide him into proper conduct. When man gets saved, he doesn't need the law anymore because Christ is in him and he in Christ. God has even led people into the transgressing of mans laws in certain instances, and if/when that would ever happen to you...don't worry about it, do what the spirit leads you to do. Don't you dare to hold up mans law to God.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I've studied Jewish Law and the best teachers are those who are bound by it... The Jews

Chabad.org is a great resource and they have the Bible with commentary from an esteemed Rabbi named Rashi. This is a good start. If your really into Torah studies and want deeper meat, get Torah commentary be Ramban. It covers everything you've asked including "paying a fine for killing your slave". It's not what you think.... Not even close

Enjoy your studies

Thank you StoveBolts. That's what I'm looking for. I'll look in to that resource.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I hope you are not reading those passages with the idea that sin increased as in the law caused more sin.

Romans 7:9-12
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

It is like telling a child "don't reach into the cookie jar". What are they going to do? The law just makes it obvious that the sin is there. Don't do this, don't do that................. It makes it obvious our flesh wants to do what it wants to do. The law is Holy, because it is spiritual!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Laws that require the death penalty.
Today is Rosh Hashana.
Jewish New Year.
Leviticus 23:23-24;
Feast of Trumpets
Yom Teruah

Next week is Yom Kippur
The day of atonement.
The holiest day of the year for the Jew.

Tradition says the Book of Life is opened on Rosh Hashana and sealed on Yom Kippur.
In between this time a Jew tries to get right with God in hopes of being sealed in the Book of Life.

What greater death penalty is there than this?
What better time of year to witness to a Jew?

 

[stovebolts]

Romans 7:9-12
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

It is like telling a child "don't reach into the cookie jar". What are they going to do? The law just makes it obvious that the sin is there. Don't do this, don't do that................. It makes it obvious our flesh wants to do what it wants to do. The law is Holy, because it is spiritual!

Not all the laws are negative commandments. (Don't do this) There are just as many positive commandments as well. (Do this)
Deuteronomy 6:4
Love the Lord with all your strength, heart and mind. (Excuse my bad memory). Teach them to your children as you walk down the road, when your sitting etc....
Like a child, you impose restrictions while scripting the responses you want them to mature in

 

[LovethroughDove]

Not all the laws are negative commandments. (Don't do this) There are just as many positive commandments as well. (Do this)
Deuteronomy 6:4
Love the Lord with all your strength, heart and mind. (Excuse my bad memory). Teach them to your children as you walk down the road, when your sitting etc....
Like a child, you impose restrictions while scripting the responses you want them to mature in

I'm glad you mentioned the (Do this). I tell my kids to (do stuff) and I get pushback. Maybe I'm just not that great of a parent, but I think that may be a flesh response also.

 

[smaller]

I want to say first that I don't understand the most laws in the Torah. I do understand some applications. Dietary laws and a few other clean/unclean laws have a practical application to keep the people healthy, as well as teach them to be holy and not like the other nations. Laws on sacrifices were a means for celebration, repentance, and giving the share of wealth and food to the priests. They were also a means to be connected to God, and with a Christian lens they were also a pointer to Jesus. Moral laws were for our benefit, our obedience to God, and for a the benefit of a healthy society as well.

But the laws that I've had to try and struggle with are the ones that most everyone does. The laws that govern the punishments for disobeying the laws. Recently, while reading Leviticus, I've crossed the 20th chapter that details several punishments and was troubled enough by them. Wondered what the reason for one law to have a steep fine, one law to have excommunication, and one law to have the death penitality. Expecially with regards to what laws give the death penitality.

That's the question I have for anyone here who might know the answer. Any explainations to why any of the laws got the punishments they were given. But in particular the ones that require death.

The range I got for the death penitality seemed to be about sexual sins, worshiping idols, being a false prophet or a medium, apostasy, practicing magic, blasphemy, children sacrifices to Molech, murder, being rebellious to your parents, cursing your parents, striking your parents, breaking the sabbath, and a few more.

Most of those are really bad, and I agree they should be punished, if not severely with capital punishment. But some of those such as being a rebellious child and breaking sabbath seem severe. Others seems out of sorts when compairing them to other laws such as murder requires death, but if it's a slave that's killed all you need to do is pay a fine. Sexual sins are given the death penitality, unless they are done to a slave or to an unmarried woman. Then there's a fine or there's a requirement to marry the woman that was potentially raped.

The O.T. Law is a very fascinating subject. Paul for example "transposed" every command in the entirety of the scriptures in Romans 13:8-10, effectively eliminating external understandings. Jesus did identically in Matt. 22:40 and it was from this basis, from Jesus Himself, that Paul received his own instructions about "law." Paul also allegorized the entirety of the law in Gal. 4, the basis of the N.T. to the O.T. The old covenant and the new. Paul also deployed extreme allegorical restructuring of the O.T. commands in places like 1 Cor. 9:8-11, which opens up vast fields of spiritual understandings of the same laws that most will only perceive in the external senses. There is, in short, a carnal external law, and buried within those same laws are deep deep allegories. Without an understanding of allegories, parables, spiritual rules and their scriptural rules, the studies of law is pointless.

And yes, there are many rules. These are employed Divinely, purposefully, to block out understandings and create confusions and divisions. None of what is read on the surface will divulge anything.

IN 1 Cor. 9:8-11 Paul derives a "written" meaning from a very obscure O.T. law that doesn't even exist in writing, UNLESS one is led to understand the deeper principles of allegory/parable/similitude. This is a path that only Jesus can take a person. It can NOT be learned any other way. Paul received what he received, seriously, by Divine Revelation. And his footsteps will take a believer to the same threshold, and they will, from that point, have to be led the same way Paul was led.

Jesus will unfold an entire other "written" document that will not appear to others. Yet, it is openly, there.

Paul protected this understanding by the two edged sword, found here:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul spent an overwhelming amount of his writings on this latter portion, again, derived from his understanding of spiritual law.

It is truly amazing, and quite entirely Divine, through God in Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm glad you mentioned the (Do this). I tell my kids to (do stuff) and I get pushback. Maybe I'm just not that great of a parent, but I think that may be a flesh response also.

Google Gabor Mate and go to his site. Under books, look for "Holding on to our children"
You can purchase the book or purchase the audio.
I've taken a few parenting classes and read a few books in my life, but this one nails it.

When your kid fails to do what you tell him, it's probably because you either have a track record of letting him get his way in which case you need to be firm and unmovable which will put him in a place of futility. In other words, he will be persistent until he realizes he isn't getting his way and you won't redirect him until he's given up on his way

The other reason is relationship and attachment. He doesn't have the desire to please you so what your seeing is his counter will. You can't boss them around and expect a healthy relationship because the child will associate his since of belonging with his behavior. When he doesn't perform, he isn't accepted. And that hurts at an emotional level. Counter will in a child can't be overcome through force. Instead, it is overcome through healthy attachment and realistic expectations

Btw. Our family has seen its share of tragedy the past 18 months and my teen son started doing drugs, ran away and yes, we even got into physical fights. 2 months ago he was screaming he hated me. I've been rebuilding our relationship through the guidance of this book (because it's from my heart not my head) and we are now planning a salmon fishing trip for next week. He wants to be with me now and he wants to please me. Without that book we would still be lost...

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The O.T. Law is a very fascinating subject. Paul for example "transposed" every command in the entirety of the scriptures in Romans 13:8-10, effectively eliminating external understandings. Jesus did identically in Matt. 22:40 and it was from this basis, from Jesus Himself, that Paul received his own instructions about "law." Paul also allegorized the entirety of the law in Gal. 4, the basis of the N.T. to the O.T. The old covenant and the new. Paul also deployed extreme allegorical restructuring of the O.T. commands in places like 1 Cor. 9:8-11, which opens up vast fields of spiritual understandings of the same laws that most will only perceive in the external senses. There is, in short, a carnal external law, and buried within those same laws are deep deep allegories. Without an understanding of allegories, parables, spiritual rules and their scriptural rules, the studies of law is pointless.

And yes, there are many rules. These are employed Divinely, purposefully, to block out understandings and create confusions and divisions. None of what is read on the surface will divulge anything.

IN 1 Cor. 9:8-11 Paul derives a "written" meaning from a very obscure O.T. law that doesn't even exist in writing, UNLESS one is led to understand the deeper principles of allegory/parable/similitude. This is a path that only Jesus can take a person. It can NOT be learned any other way. Paul received what he received, seriously, by Divine Revelation. And his footsteps will take a believer to the same threshold, and they will, from that point, have to be led the same way Paul was led.

Jesus will unfold an entire other "written" document that will not appear to others. Yet, it is openly, there.

Paul protected this understanding by the two edged sword, found here:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul spent an overwhelming amount of his writings on this latter portion, again, derived from his understanding of spiritual law.

It is truly amazing, and quite entirely Divine, through God in Christ.

It is fascinating. But there are two aspects of it. The deeper side of it, looking at the laws and trying to find more meaning from them. And the practical side of it. Following the laws, or understanding the nation of Isreal's structure with the laws. The practical side of it is more my focus right now. A whole nation was put to the structure of the laws. Several times in it's history Isreal was punished by God because it strayed from the laws. Prophets and Judges are heroes because they bring Isreal back to following God and obeying the laws that are focused on in the text. And at Jesus's time (probabley because of their history and God's punishments), the focus was to the point of following the laws that strict sects of Judiasm formed to follow the laws in the strictest manner. The Pharisees and the Sadducees. The understanding of the laws for these points, and not just the points of being a Christian looking at laws that no longer affect him to learn from.

The laws were made for the benifit of Isreal. Not just a standard that no one could hold, but as a framework of their society. Much like our laws are today are a framework of our society, and our constitution kind of like the legal backbone that we try and mold our other laws out of. So when a law says to stone an adulteress and adulterer, that says a standard of God's, and it says a value in the society it is in. It is a death penitality, and eventually was a test put forth on Jesus by the religous leaders. It's also simular to laws in other religions that have a death penitality such as in Islam. Since I don't accept Islam, and their beheadings from their legal systems or by their terrorists abhor me, I have a lens to look at the Isreal laws and try to kind the love and wisdom of God to have the death penalty in the nation He chose for Himself.

 

[smaller]

It is fascinating. But there are two aspects of it. The deeper side of it, looking at the laws and trying to find more meaning from them. And the practical side of it. Following the laws, or understanding the nation of Isreal's structure with the laws.

If the laws of God were to Israel's benefit, that would not appear to be the "real" case for them, and the exact opposite conclusion is easily derived. That Israel was proven by the law to be lawless sinners, they were judged repeatedly, divided repeatedly and eventually destroyed and scattered. I would propose that this identical work transpires in any group that approaches the law in similar ways. For example, in older orthodoxy, the law says "do not kill." What did they subsequently do? Yeah, killed.

The power of Gods laws are engaged in the reality of very real lawlessness that they bring about. Paul pinpoints this quite explicitly in many places, primarily in Romans and particularly in Romans 7:21 where he "discovers" that the law proves to him that "evil" is in fact present with him. I might conclude from this exercise of Paul that the same is true for "all." A bitter pill of theology, but it is a fact.

The practical side of it is more my focus right now. A whole nation was put to the structure of the laws. Several times in it's history Isreal was punished by God because it strayed from the laws. Prophets and Judges are heroes because they bring Isreal back to following God and obeying the laws that are focused on in the text. And at Jesus's time (probabley because of their history and God's punishments), the focus was to the point of following the laws that strict sects of Judiasm formed to follow the laws in the strictest manner. The Pharisees and the Sadducees. The understanding of the laws for these points, and not just the points of being a Christian looking at laws that no longer affect him to learn from.

I've heard some say that the law is like an x-ray, shining on the fact that internally, we are and remain sinners. I agree with that observation and conclusion. It is unlikely that the "evil present" with Paul was made any different by the law and in fact sin is made worse by the law, in order to recognize it for what it is.

Sinners are, by nature, quite lawless, regardless. Paul bears this out by his own sight of himself as the chief of sinners, and this, post or after salvation. Therein is the dichotomy of law. I've also heard some good christian teachers say about this subject that keeping sin in check is only like holding corks under water by hand. As soon as the hand is released, they pop immediately to the surface. And again, I would agree with that conclusion, even from a practical aspect.

The laws were made for the benifit of Isreal. Not just a standard that no one could hold, but as a framework of their society.

At some point in law, it will or should become obvious, that the study of law is a study of the quite entire universal reality of sin indwelling the flesh of all of mankind thereby resulting in lawlessness no matter how much law is applied to the quotients or how much of it shows up on the outside.

Sin indwelling all is there, whether the law reveals and arouses/empowers it or not.

So, we might then ask how many sinners are lawful? And, the answer, is, and will remain, exactly zero.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Btw. Our family has seen its share of tragedy the past 18 months and my teen son started doing drugs, ran away and yes, we even got into physical fights. 2 months ago he was screaming he hated me. I've been rebuilding our relationship through the guidance of this book (because it's from my heart not my head) and we are now planning a salmon fishing trip for next week. He wants to be with me now and he wants to please me. Without that book we would still be lost...

Thank you for the information. I am struggling with a 12 year old daughter who is totally disrespecting her parents and herself (she's cutting herself when she gets upset) She doesn't want to be around her family, and I want her to want to be with us also!

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for the information. I am struggling with a 12 year old daughter who is totally disrespecting her parents and herself (she's cutting herself when she gets upset) She doesn't want to be around her family, and I want her to want to be with us also!

Then you need to download the audio or buy the book.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If the laws of God were to Israel's benefit, that would not appear to be the "real" case for them, and the exact opposite conclusion is easily derived. That Israel was proven by the law to be lawless sinners, they were judged repeatedly, divided repeatedly and eventually destroyed and scattered. I would propose that this identical work transpires in any group that approaches the law in similar ways. For example, in older orthodoxy, the law says "do not kill." What did they subsequently do? Yeah, killed.

The power of Gods laws are engaged in the reality of very real lawlessness that they bring about. Paul pinpoints this quite explicitly in many places, primarily in Romans and particularly in Romans 7:21 where he "discovers" that the law proves to him that "evil" is in fact present with him. I might conclude from this exercise of Paul that the same is true for "all." A bitter pill of theology, but it is a fact.



I've heard some say that the law is like an x-ray, shining on the fact that internally, we are and remain sinners. I agree with that observation and conclusion. It is unlikely that the "evil present" with Paul was made any different by the law and in fact sin is made worse by the law, in order to recognize it for what it is.

Sinners are, by nature, quite lawless, regardless. Paul bears this out by his own sight of himself as the chief of sinners, and this, post or after salvation. Therein is the dichotomy of law. I've also heard some good christian teachers say about this subject that keeping sin in check is only like holding corks under water by hand. As soon as the hand is released, they pop immediately to the surface. And again, I would agree with that conclusion, even from a practical aspect.



At some point in law, it will or should become obvious, that the study of law is a study of the quite entire universal reality of sin indwelling the flesh of all of mankind thereby resulting in lawlessness no matter how much law is applied to the quotients or how much of it shows up on the outside.

Sin indwelling all is there, whether the law reveals and arouses/empowers it or not.

So, we might then ask how many sinners are lawful? And, the answer, is, and will remain, exactly zero.

We're talking about two different aspects of the Law, Smaller. Your talking about salvation and being saved, verses being free from the law. I'm talking about the Law given to a nation that for 1200+ years held those laws as the basis of their society, gave the nation justice, celebrations, priestly rules, a connection to God, as well as a redementive side to come back to God.

While I agree with you and the others here that said that we don't need to concern ourselves with the law as our means for salvation, that is not the point of why I'm bringing it up. I hope that clears up what I mean.

 

[smaller]

We're talking about two different aspects of the Law, Smaller. Your talking about salvation and being saved, verses being free from the law. I'm talking about the Law given to a nation that for 1200+ years held those laws as the basis of their society, gave the nation justice, celebrations, priestly rules, a connection to God, as well as a redementive side to come back to God.

While I agree with you and the others here that said that we don't need to concern ourselves with the law as our means for salvation, that is not the point of why I'm bringing it up. I hope that clears up what I mean.

Don't get me wrong on sights of law. The questions I asked myself on these matters many years ago, after salvation, was a simple one.

Why was the law needed in the first place?

And ultimately that reasonable question leads headlong into a scriptural study of lawlessness and it's source, which proves to be one of the most interesting and entirely fascinating engagements of the scriptures.

Were these matters only matters of societal engagements, equity, fair dealings and organization, that is one thing. But the law contains much harsher elements called "penalties" for lawbreakers, some of which include death. So, yeah. It's a pretty serious study, this issue of lawlessness in the universal population.

And equally, obviously, since I believe in what Jesus said here:

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Which same was duplicated in Matt. 4:4 and Deut. 8:3, I see this as applicable not only to Israel, but to "man" in the universal sense of application.

And, when all the chips fall out on this matter, we would find that there is an operating principle that God in Christ Himself has placed upon the earth and every person therein. And that is the "factual internal condition" of lawlessness. This brings up a plethora of other issues, which I noted prior, and that is this: Can anyone who is internally lawless be truly, truthfully lawful?

And the answer to that is a resounding no, because of the presence of indwelling sin.

Many in christiandom falsely think that the law has failed to achieve or that Gods Words are/were only applicable to Israel or not applicable or whatever to them. I do not hold that view. The law was delivered precisely to bring us "all" to the point of understanding, even receiving Divine Mercy based on the likewise facts of being sinners. And this being predicated on our Supreme Maker actually placing us in such needs. So, I throw myself on the Divine Mercy of our Maker in this regards, which is ultimately "where" the law led me. I do not think of or see this as a bad arrangement.

Many believers also think that God acquits the lawless. And that is also not the case.

Isaiah 31:2
Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

This "bringing of evil" is as clear as a bell in the O.T. And done precisely because the people of Israel, the first called out to engage with Gods avalanche of law were in fact sinners just like everyone else is. Even the bringing of evil being directed by God Himself. So, yeah, I take these matters exceptionally seriously. And understand that this is done precisely by God Himself for many reasons. To show His Superiority, and to deliver Divine Mercy being pre-emminent. There is no amount of lawkeeping that will escape the fact that we all have indwelling sin, and are all therefore sinners, period, and this shows our need for Divine Mercy.

Does that mean that Divine Mercy extends to all? Certainly not. Here for example, we see that both forgiveness and the opposite, that there will be no forgiveness, are simultaneously delivered. And this is where most law studies go off the rails because we think it's one way for us and another way for other sinners. That is not the case.

Exodus 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

And, I would end this exercise of scriptural fact here, with Paul's sights of himself, which Paul knew full well, and openly showed us, which will stick solidly in the craw of every viewing believer:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The law is in fact against the sinners, who also include the devil (1 John 3:8 shows us that the devil is also a "sinner") and his messengers. They are completely lawless and can not nor will they ever be forgiven.

So, how many devils in the flesh of mankind do we think will be legal or lawful upon the earth? Uh, that would be a big fat zero. Only 1 of the parties in 2 Cor. 12:7 was forgiven and saved and even lawful in the spiritual sense of Romans 13:8-10. The other party, the exact opposite.

So, now, what you make of the law as it applies to the devil and his messengers is really the case of God's Laws. Seeing them as only applicable to people is a scriptural theological wasteland because none of such studies take into account, the other parties.

What you will find is this. That the laws of God were precisely made to aggravate the other parties, to arouse them, even to empower them unto disobedience. And this, regardless of how the person themselves see anything of Gods Laws.

There is in fact a whole other entity class, unseen, that is also involved with Gods Laws. This Divine Dynamic is set in place by God Himself, and can not be changed until the other parties run their courses of judgments on/in the earth. That is also why the Laws of God will not pass away, not one jot or tittle, til "these parties" are finally utterly destroyed.

What you will see is a continual amplification of lawlessness, until God's Purposes of judgments upon them are fulfilled. Just as it was with physical pharaoh and physical Egypt of the past, we will see again, in the spiritual senses. And if any do not see, they are not meant to see. And this by Gods Present Workings "against" the other parties in their own flesh.

I have been led to detest liars and posers. And there is another working in all, even in my own flesh, that I detest, and understand that God in Christ Himself does work against that working and worker. Yes, christians, God in Christ is not the friend of "your" entirety. Look at Paul's condition of Paul's flesh and you will see your enemy and Gods enemy therein.

There you will find a very real and legitimate FEAR of God in Christ.

This is a fear that has shook me to my core, and brought me headlong into His Mercy.

And now, Gods Laws, all of them, are my ally, showing me His Ways of dealings with the other parties. And they are not pretty, nor will they be prettier in the future.