• Love God, and love one another!

    Share your heart for Christ and others in Godly Love

    https://christianforums.net/forums/god_love/

  • Want to discuss private matters, or make a few friends?

    Ask for membership to the Men's or Lady's Locker Rooms

    For access, please contact a member of staff and they can add you in!

  • Wake up and smell the coffee!

    Join us for a little humor in Joy of the Lord

    https://christianforums.net/forums/humor_and_jokes/

  • Need prayer and encouragement?

    Come share your heart's concerns in the Prayer Forum

    https://christianforums.net/forums/prayer/

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes coming in the future!

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

Question on the Law

Don't get me wrong on sights of law. The questions I asked myself on these matters many years ago, after salvation, was a simple one.

Why was the law needed in the first place?

And ultimately that reasonable question leads headlong into a scriptural study of lawlessness and it's source, which proves to be one of the most interesting and entirely fascinating engagements of the scriptures.

Were these matters only matters of societal engagements, equity, fair dealings and organization, that is one thing. But the law contains much harsher elements called "penalties" for lawbreakers, some of which include death. So, yeah. It's a pretty serious study, this issue of lawlessness in the universal population.

And equally, obviously, since I believe in what Jesus said here:

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Which same was duplicated in Matt. 4:4 and Deut. 8:3, I see this as applicable not only to Israel, but to "man" in the universal sense of application.

And, when all the chips fall out on this matter, we would find that there is an operating principle that God in Christ Himself has placed upon the earth and every person therein. And that is the "factual internal condition" of lawlessness. This brings up a plethora of other issues, which I noted prior, and that is this: Can anyone who is internally lawless be truly, truthfully lawful?

And the answer to that is a resounding no, because of the presence of indwelling sin.

Many in christiandom falsely think that the law has failed to achieve or that Gods Words are/were only applicable to Israel or not applicable or whatever to them. I do not hold that view. The law was delivered precisely to bring us "all" to the point of understanding, even receiving Divine Mercy based on the likewise facts of being sinners. And this being predicated on our Supreme Maker actually placing us in such needs. So, I throw myself on the Divine Mercy of our Maker in this regards, which is ultimately "where" the law led me. I do not think of or see this as a bad arrangement.

Many believers also think that God acquits the lawless. And that is also not the case.

Isaiah 31:2
Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

This "bringing of evil" is as clear as a bell in the O.T. And done precisely because the people of Israel, the first called out to engage with Gods avalanche of law were in fact sinners just like everyone else is. Even the bringing of evil being directed by God Himself. So, yeah, I take these matters exceptionally seriously. And understand that this is done precisely by God Himself for many reasons. To show His Superiority, and to deliver Divine Mercy being pre-emminent. There is no amount of lawkeeping that will escape the fact that we all have indwelling sin, and are all therefore sinners, period, and this shows our need for Divine Mercy.

Does that mean that Divine Mercy extends to all? Certainly not. Here for example, we see that both forgiveness and the opposite, that there will be no forgiveness, are simultaneously delivered. And this is where most law studies go off the rails because we think it's one way for us and another way for other sinners. That is not the case.

Exodus 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

And, I would end this exercise of scriptural fact here, with Paul's sights of himself, which Paul knew full well, and openly showed us, which will stick solidly in the craw of every viewing believer:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.


The law is in fact against the sinners, who also include the devil (1 John 3:8 shows us that the devil is also a "sinner") and his messengers. They are completely lawless and can not nor will they ever be forgiven.

So, how many devils in the flesh of mankind do we think will be legal or lawful upon the earth? Uh, that would be a big fat zero. Only 1 of the parties in 2 Cor. 12:7 was forgiven and saved and even lawful in the spiritual sense of Romans 13:8-10. The other party, the exact opposite.

So, now, what you make of the law as it applies to the devil and his messengers is really the case of God's Laws. Seeing them as only applicable to people is a scriptural theological wasteland because none of such studies take into account, the other parties.

What you will find is this. That the laws of God were precisely made to aggravate the other parties, to arouse them, even to empower them unto disobedience. And this, regardless of how the person themselves see anything of Gods Laws.

There is in fact a whole other entity class, unseen, that is also involved with Gods Laws. This Divine Dynamic is set in place by God Himself, and can not be changed until the other parties run their courses of judgments on/in the earth. That is also why the Laws of God will not pass away, not one jot or tittle, til "these parties" are finally utterly destroyed.

What you will see is a continual amplification of lawlessness, until God's Purposes of judgments upon them are fulfilled. Just as it was with physical pharaoh and physical Egypt of the past, we will see again, in the spiritual senses. And if any do not see, they are not meant to see. And this by Gods Present Workings "against" the other parties in their own flesh.

I have been led to detest liars and posers. And there is another working in all, even in my own flesh, that I detest, and understand that God in Christ Himself does work against that working and worker. Yes, christians, God in Christ is not the friend of "your" entirety. Look at Paul's condition of Paul's flesh and you will see your enemy and Gods enemy therein.

There you will find a very real and legitimate FEAR of God in Christ.


This is a fear that has shook me to my core, and brought me headlong into His Mercy.

And now, Gods Laws, all of them, are my ally, showing me His Ways of dealings with the other parties. And they are not pretty, nor will they be prettier in the future.

.... You know I'm kind of stumped on what to say. I can't really say that I disagree with you about the laws being about bigger and greater concerns. I have a simular view actually. So because of that I can't say let's agree to disagree and try to move along in the conversation, or move on to future conversations. But on the other hand, I don't think the bigger issues that the law is addressing, (the forces that are in rebellion against God), are all that this matter should be concerned about. I don't think that It's a moot point that these laws are the laws that ran Isreal for the duration of it's being till Rome not only occupied it, but then also struck the state of Isreal and scattered the Jewish nation. Even if there is a greater drama of God and the rebellion against God being used through the law, I don't think that the lesser concern of the actual laws and their punishments are without merit as well.

For the record, I'm not arguing that the laws are a step to our salvation, or even that they aren't. I am trying to get a better understanding of the laws and how they are applied or why they were applied in the way they were. To have the death penalty for a rebellious child against his parents is severe in my opinion, because often that is a temporary stage in a person's life. My brother, once caught against my parents when he was a teen, but now it is much different. To thing that this was worthy of death instead of redemetion is a stark and hard thing to comprend when I also thing God is loving and forgiving. When I see where the death penalty to those who murder a free man, but not the death penalty to killing a servant or a slave, I can't see the Justice. The years that these laws were in use I don't think are small enough to gloss over because there are bigger issues that the law was made for. Does that make more sense? If it does, but doesn't seem justified as a concern, then at that point I can say before your answer that we should agree to disagree and move on.
 
I'll try and do some brushing up on your questions. Forgive me, I'm a bit rusty and may not be fully right here. I'll do my best

There are two types of slaves, and unless you know Hebrew, it isn't always obvious which type of slave is being spoken about. The two types are Hebrew and Gentile.

You could become a slave if you were indebted to another until the debt was paid off. Having a slave was an act of kindness and mercy on many accounts, especially if you were Hebrew. Not so much at times if you were a gentile in the later years of Israel.

When Moses wrote about Slaves, he made it clear that you treated a slave well regardless if they were gentile or Hebrew. But Gentiles were not treated as well as the Hebrews according to Moses. Sorry for not providing scripture here, I'm on my phone as usual.

If I recall from Ramban, the murder of a gentile slave was warranted only when the slave repeatedly neglected his obligation. Remember, one opted into slavery at the time Moses wrote those words. It was an act of mercy to accept a slave in order that the slave could pay off his debt, or have a stable home/food and shelter.

I'll see if I can dig out those passages and revisit Ramban but give me some time because it's something I'd want to put together on a computer and not my phone

Thanks
 
As far as a wayward child, this was rare and you have to keep in mind that they were community oriented and had the support of family. Our current culture is so far removed from theirs, so you have to try and not associate our culture with theirs.
I'll also dig up what Ramban has to say. It's been way too long since I studied all that
 
Not_Now.Soon said:
When I see where the death penalty to those who murder a free man, but not the death penalty to killing a servant or a slave, I can't see the Justice.
I'm home :-)
Which passages are you referring to? This one?
Exodus 21:20-21 (NASB): 20If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
I
remember this one :)
This has to do with intent. It's an American saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is not a Jewish way of thinking, nor should it be a Christian way of thinking. I'll give you another example shortly.

In this case, it was never the owners intent to murder his slave as is made evidence that the slave survived several days after the beating. If the slave dies directly after the beating, it shows intent to murder. If this does not satisfy you, I'll dig out my Jewish commentary and let them justify it. But it runs across these lines.

Exodus 22 (NASB): 2 “[b]If the thief is [c]caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account. 3 But if the sun has risen on him, there will be bloodguiltiness on his account.

Again, it shows intent. A thief who breaks in at daytime doesn't expect the owners to be home. He is only interested in stealing. A thief who enters at night knows the owners are home, and as was customary, would murder the occupants prior to stealing their possessions.
 
Deuteronomy 21 (NASB) 18 “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city [r]at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

Again, I'm rusty on this one. It's deeper than what is presented... it has to do with culture and I don't want to misrepresent. I'll try and come back to this one.
 
I'm home :)
Which passages are you referring to? This one?
Exodus 21:20-21 (NASB): 20If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
I
remember this one :)
This has to do with intent. It's an American saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is not a Jewish way of thinking, nor should it be a Christian way of thinking. I'll give you another example shortly.

In this case, it was never the owners intent to murder his slave as is made evidence that the slave survived several days after the beating. If the slave dies directly after the beating, it shows intent to murder. If this does not satisfy you, I'll dig out my Jewish commentary and let them justify it. But it runs across these lines.

Exodus 22 (NASB): 2 “[b]If the thief is [c]caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account. 3 But if the sun has risen on him, there will be bloodguiltiness on his account.

Again, it shows intent. A thief who breaks in at daytime doesn't expect the owners to be home. He is only interested in stealing. A thief who enters at night knows the owners are home, and as was customary, would murder the occupants prior to stealing their possessions.

Thank you for all that information StoveBolts. I really appreciate it.
 
Deuteronomy 21 (NASB) 18 “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city [r]at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

Again, I'm rusty on this one. It's deeper than what is presented... it has to do with culture and I don't want to misrepresent. I'll try and come back to this one.

It's an awesome scripture for us to learn just how serious it is for us to do our part to raise up a child in the way he should go.

The law is an awesome teaching tool that the Church has widely neglected because of great misunderstanding by it's leaders.


JLB
 
Back
Top