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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Question
- Thread starter golfjack
- Start date
:reply
We have the original 12 Apostles, which must include Judas, then Judas hung himself. Matthias was the 13th. Then we have Barnabus and Paul ( acts 14:14, making them them the 14th and 15th. Then we have James, the Lord's brother as the 16th.. Then we have Andronicus and Junia as the 17th and 18th ( Romans 16:7). Then we have Silvanus, and Timotheus making them the 19th and 20th ( we find this in the second chapter to the Thessalonians). Then we have 2 unnamed brethern who are called apostles ( 2 Cor. 8:23,) raising the number to 22. Then we havve Epaphroditus ( Phil. 2:25), which makes 23 apostles mentioned in the New Testament.
May God bless, Golfjack
We have the original 12 Apostles, which must include Judas, then Judas hung himself. Matthias was the 13th. Then we have Barnabus and Paul ( acts 14:14, making them them the 14th and 15th. Then we have James, the Lord's brother as the 16th.. Then we have Andronicus and Junia as the 17th and 18th ( Romans 16:7). Then we have Silvanus, and Timotheus making them the 19th and 20th ( we find this in the second chapter to the Thessalonians). Then we have 2 unnamed brethern who are called apostles ( 2 Cor. 8:23,) raising the number to 22. Then we havve Epaphroditus ( Phil. 2:25), which makes 23 apostles mentioned in the New Testament.
May God bless, Golfjack
jgredline
Member
Free said:
Actually, this is another good question...Actually, thinking about it, Judas could not have been an apostle because the True apostles those that where appointed by Jesus himself all came to be after the resurrection....Judas was never appointed...Those other Apostles did hold the apostolic ''office'', But I do not believe it was the same as the original 11 + 1 (paul) who were trained and appointed by Jesus and given powers that were unique only to those whom Jesus appointed...We really don't know much about Mattias...I have often wondered why they even felt the need to replace Judas...
Now I am not dogmatic on this, as there is room for other views...
G
Guest
Guest
I would agree - I do not believe that we can count Judas as an apostle. In fact, is he even referred to as an apostle?
cyberjosh
Member
True, though sadly he had pretty much all the privilages of an apostle - he no doubt preached to people and cast out demons ("even the demons are subject to us!"), and even stayed when others left (John 6:66), and yet he fufilled the saddest predictment in Scripture, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven".
~Josh
Vic C.
Member
Does this help?jgredline said:
1 Cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
handy
Member
I've studied this before, and I'm not sure that he did. Let me post the texts and see what you think:
The passages in which Jesus talks about one of the 12 betraying him is found in
Matthew 26:20-25
Mark 14:17-21
Luke doesn't mention this discussion.
John 13:21-30
John writes that when Judas took the morsel, he went out immediately.
If Judas left immediately, then I believe he was not there for the first communion for Matthew describes the first communion as taking place after Jesus spoke of his betrayal as does Mark.
It's clear that Judas started the Passover meal with the 12 but left during it. What's not so clear is whether or not he left prior to Jesus breaking the commuion bread, but the texts seem to idicate that he did. One thing is for certain, once Jesus has the discussion regarding the betrayal, and Judas takes the morsel, we do not see or hear from him again until he shows up with the soldiers.
The passages in which Jesus talks about one of the 12 betraying him is found in
Matthew 26:20-25
Mark 14:17-21
Luke doesn't mention this discussion.
John 13:21-30
John writes that when Judas took the morsel, he went out immediately.
If Judas left immediately, then I believe he was not there for the first communion for Matthew describes the first communion as taking place after Jesus spoke of his betrayal as does Mark.
It's clear that Judas started the Passover meal with the 12 but left during it. What's not so clear is whether or not he left prior to Jesus breaking the commuion bread, but the texts seem to idicate that he did. One thing is for certain, once Jesus has the discussion regarding the betrayal, and Judas takes the morsel, we do not see or hear from him again until he shows up with the soldiers.
reply
We are all disciples. Judas was called out by God and asked to follow Him. This makes him one of the original called, and we call him an apostle. The difference between then and today is that Jesus did the calling while on earth. Jesus now sits on His throne with Father God. So, how today is one called to fulfill the five-fold ministry, which does include Apostles? Your answer is found in Acts 13:2, which says As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Now separate to Me Barnabus and Saul for the work to which I have called them. They were called to do the work of a Missionary, which today is Apostle work. Judas did the work of an Apostle, and must be considered one of the original 12.
May God bless, Golfjack
We are all disciples. Judas was called out by God and asked to follow Him. This makes him one of the original called, and we call him an apostle. The difference between then and today is that Jesus did the calling while on earth. Jesus now sits on His throne with Father God. So, how today is one called to fulfill the five-fold ministry, which does include Apostles? Your answer is found in Acts 13:2, which says As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Now separate to Me Barnabus and Saul for the work to which I have called them. They were called to do the work of a Missionary, which today is Apostle work. Judas did the work of an Apostle, and must be considered one of the original 12.
May God bless, Golfjack
handy
Member
jgredline said:
I had heard this teaching before, but here is a text that shows that Jesus named the 12 as apostles and Judas Iscariot was one: Luke 6:12-16
Naming the 23 apostles of the New Testament sounds like an interesting study. Maybe someday when I have more time I'll look them up.
We are also called and asked to follow. The meaning of disciple is "a committed learner and follower". An apostle is one who is sent, a "messenger":golfjack said:
Joh 20:21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."
Jesus was the first Apostle and then the eleven.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Judas is an interesting case in Once Saved Always Saved.
I see Psalm 41 as a prophecy of Christ. It says:
[8] They say, "A deadly thing has fastened upon him;
he will not rise again from where he lies."
[9] Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted,
who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
Sorry, but I can't help seeing this passage as a prophecy about Judas. Of who the betrayer is at the last supper, Jesus says:
Mark.14
[20] He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me.
[18] And as they were at table eating, Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me."
[19] They began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one after another, "Is it I?"
[20] He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me.
Now aren't all who are not saved enimies of Christ? How can one who is a trusted friend, be an enemy of Christ? How can God be fooled? Answer he can't and so at some point Judas was a friend and later became an enemy. Of course some of you might say that Judas was saved even with his sin.
I see Psalm 41 as a prophecy of Christ. It says:
[8] They say, "A deadly thing has fastened upon him;
he will not rise again from where he lies."
[9] Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted,
who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
Sorry, but I can't help seeing this passage as a prophecy about Judas. Of who the betrayer is at the last supper, Jesus says:
Mark.14
[20] He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me.
[18] And as they were at table eating, Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me."
[19] They began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one after another, "Is it I?"
[20] He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me.
Now aren't all who are not saved enimies of Christ? How can one who is a trusted friend, be an enemy of Christ? How can God be fooled? Answer he can't and so at some point Judas was a friend and later became an enemy. Of course some of you might say that Judas was saved even with his sin.
G
Guest
Guest
thessalonian said:
The question is - was Judas saved? Where is Judas referred to as a "trusted friend"?
handy
Member
I don't believe that Judas was ever saved. I believe that he is a clear example of the tare in the wheat. Matthew 13:24-30
Judas, while being one of the 12 and therefore present when Jesus called them apostles, was always the 'son of perdition'.
I find the discussion regarding whether or not Judas was ever saved to be interesting but off-topic. I think I'll start a new thread.
Golfjack, if you are listing Andronicus and Junia as apostles, you're going to rattle some cages as Junia was a woman. And, as apostles are the highest authority within the church beneath Christ Himself, the idea of a woman apostles will really rile some. So much so, that for years, Junia's name was masculinized into Junias, although it's clear from study of the ancient manuscript that Junia was and is correct.
I was in a long discussion on another board a few years back over the issue of whether or not Junia was an apostle or just highly regarded by the apostles. Frankly, I think the church under the direction of the RCC during the medievel times twisted woman's place in the church. When one carefully reads through the New Testament, women had prominent role, not only in spreading the gospel, but teaching as well. I know all about Paul's letter to Timothy, but one of Paul's best friends and co-workers was Priscilla, who was a teacher and Paul directed the Roman's to not only receive Phoebe but to also to assist her in whatever way she needed them to. Paul also mentions that the daughters of Philip were prophets. I think the church has been guilty of misunderstanding Paul's instruction to Timothy and then teaching that misunderstanding as dogma.
But, that's a subject for another thread as well I guess!
:
Judas, while being one of the 12 and therefore present when Jesus called them apostles, was always the 'son of perdition'.
I find the discussion regarding whether or not Judas was ever saved to be interesting but off-topic. I think I'll start a new thread.
Golfjack, if you are listing Andronicus and Junia as apostles, you're going to rattle some cages as Junia was a woman. And, as apostles are the highest authority within the church beneath Christ Himself, the idea of a woman apostles will really rile some. So much so, that for years, Junia's name was masculinized into Junias, although it's clear from study of the ancient manuscript that Junia was and is correct.
I was in a long discussion on another board a few years back over the issue of whether or not Junia was an apostle or just highly regarded by the apostles. Frankly, I think the church under the direction of the RCC during the medievel times twisted woman's place in the church. When one carefully reads through the New Testament, women had prominent role, not only in spreading the gospel, but teaching as well. I know all about Paul's letter to Timothy, but one of Paul's best friends and co-workers was Priscilla, who was a teacher and Paul directed the Roman's to not only receive Phoebe but to also to assist her in whatever way she needed them to. Paul also mentions that the daughters of Philip were prophets. I think the church has been guilty of misunderstanding Paul's instruction to Timothy and then teaching that misunderstanding as dogma.
But, that's a subject for another thread as well I guess!
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