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Bible Study Questions about II Corinthians 5:1-9 and Philippians 1:20-24

A

atrhick

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In order to get the picture clearly in mind, let us review the verses point by point.

Vs. 1 Paul introduces an earthly house and a heavenly house, and says: “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God,
an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.â€Â
Vs. 2 He states our condition while in the earthly house. “In this we groan†and “being burdened.â€Â
Vs. 2,3 He tells us what we desire in that state. “Earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.â€Â
Vs. 4 Paul repeats these facts once again. “For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon.â€Â
Vs. 4 He then states the result of being clothed with the house from heaven that he so greatly desired. “But clothed upon, that MORTALITY might be SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE.â€Â
Vs. 5 The Spirit is a pledge that mortality shall eventually be swallowed up of life. “Who also hath given unto us the earnest (assurance, pledge) of the Spirit.â€Â
Vs. 6 Paul states the grounds of his confidence. “Therefore we are always confident, knowing that whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.â€Â
Vs. 7 A parenthetical comment on successful Christian living. “(We walk by faith, not by sight.)â€Â
Vs. 8 He repeats a willingness to be absent from the body and to be with the Lord. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.â€Â

With the subject fully before us, let us determine the meaning of the terms Paul uses in the text. What does he mean by the “earthly house†and the “heavenly house†By being “clothed upon†and “unclothed†By “mortality†being “swallowed up of life†By being “absent from the body†and “present with the Lordâ€Â
The apostle answers all of these questions for us. In verse 6, he defines “our earthly house†as being “at home in the body.†The chief characteristic of this house is that it may be “dissolved.†In other words, it is mortal. This earthly house is, therefore, our mortal body or our present mortal condition. This fact appears too obvious for further comment.
The house from heaven is “eternal†or immortal and represents the state of immortality that awaits the redeemed beyond the resurrection. Here is where the greatest misunderstanding enters the picture. Some have thought that the “house from heaven†is put on at the moment of death. But the apostle clearly spells out the TIME when he will put on immortality.

2 The Time of the Change

Notice how he explains when “mortality is swallowed up of life,†in Romans 8:22, 23, “…ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.†This verse in Romans is a perfect, striking parallel to the verses in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 and clarifies when we shall be clothed with that immortality. Notice the similarity of language and thought:
To the Corinthians Paul Wrote:

“We... in this tabernacle do groan.â€Â
“Given to us the earnest of the Spirit.â€Â
“Earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.â€Â
To the Romans Paul Wrote:
“We groan within ourselves …â€Â
“Have the firstfruits of the Spirit.â€Â
“Earnest expectation… waiting for the redemption of our body.â€Â

These two scriptures are speaking of the same experience. The ultimate object in both cases is to change this mortal body into the immortal body and to change this “earthly house†into the “house eternal in the heavens.†Please notice that in one verse Paul was “earnestly desiring to be clothed†with his house from heaven, and in the other verse his “earnest expectation†was the “redemption of the body.â€Â

The comparison proves that this clothing from heaven takes place at the “redemption of the body.†Paul adds the final clarification in 1 Corinthians 15:5 1-53 when he again describes the TIME this change takes place: “…we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump… this mortal must put on immortality.†In other words, even though death should dissolve this mortal body, Paul makes it very clear that we do not put on the house from heaven (immortality) until the coming of Jesus and the redemption of the body. This is also established by the repeated references to the “naked†or “unclothed†state.

3 Unclothed in Death

What is meant by the term “unclothed†Notice that Paul specifically declared that he did not desire to be naked or unclothed. We can be certain, then, that the unclothed state did not involve being with the Lord, since Paul did not desire it. In fact, the apostle made reference to being clothed with only two houses, the earthly and heavenly. In the unclothed state, he was neither in the earthly body nor clothed with the heavenly. That leaves only one possible explanation. To be “unclothed†or “naked†is the condition of death that is the interlude between the dissolving of the earthly house and putting on the heavenly.

4 Only Two Houses

Some have claimed that the house which we have “eternal in the heavens†is the immortal soul with which we immediately enter into heaven when the earthly house is dissolved. But this could not be. Notice the impossibility of such an arrangement. If the soul inhabited that heavenly “house†immediately at death, what happens when it must inhabit the immortalized body after the resurrection takes place It is in the glorified resurrection bodies that the righteous dwell with God for eternity. This would involve those souls leaving the “house eternal in the heavens†which they inhabited at death, and going into the redeemed bodies at the resurrection. Then what happens to the house they vacated Are the saints to have “houses to rent†Moreover, this view introduces something that Paul never mentioned; for here we have THREE HOUSES, but Paul’s language allows for only TWO. And one would have to be abandoned according to the popular view. Would it stand abandoned and fall into ruin All this is unscriptural and absurd. Such a view is an impossibility.

The fact is that Paul is not talking here about the soul at all. He does not even once mention the soul in the passage or its context. He is simply contrasting the present life with the far more glorious life to come in heaven. He did not look forward to the sleep of death (being “unclothedâ€Â) when he would not be with the Lord, but he did long for the redemption of the body when he would be clothed with the “house eternal in the heavens.†While still in this life he would be clothed with a mortal body; and after mortality is “swallowed up of life,†he would have a heavenly, immortal body. But whether in the earthly tabernacles or house from heaven he would still have a body. Nowhere does Paul separate a soul from the body. It is either a body on this earth and being absent from the Lord, or it is a redeemed body in heaven and being present with the Lord.

5 Earnest of the Spirit

Here is further positive proof that Paul was referring to the resurrection as the TIME to put on that eternal house. To both the Corinthians and the Romans, Paul emphasized that the Spirit was a pledge that they would be clothed with immortality. What did he mean Of what is the Holy Spirit in our hearts and earnest or pledge Is it a proof or assurance that we have immortal souls that will live on when the body is dead Is that what Paul meant No. The apostle makes it abundantly clear that the Spirit is a pledge of the redemption of our bodies at the resurrection. “... ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.†Ephesians 1:13, 14.

Do not miss the point Paul makes that the “earnest of the Spirit†points to the time when our inheritance is received in full and the bodily redemption takes place. Paul used the same expression in 2 Corinthians 5:5 when talking about putting on the house from heaven, “God hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.†That Spirit is the pledge of the resurrection of the body. Another text removes all doubt: “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.†Romans 8:11. This verse provides undeniable proof that the indwelling Spirit is a guarantee that our mortal bodies will be quickened at the resurrection.

6 Swallowed Up When

Now let us take note that Paul used an argument that forever precludes the doctrine of the soul going to heaven at death. In one simple statement, Paul shattered the popular argument for natural immortality. He said, “we… do groan that mortality might be
swallowed up of life.†2 Corinthians 5:4. Obviously, mortality can only be swallowed up by immortality, or eternal life. Is this the passing of the soul from the mortal body at the hour of death Let us look at it. What is there about man, according to the common view, which is mortal The body. In addition, what is immortal The soul. Assuming for a moment that this is true, then what happens at death At death the body, which is mortal, does not become immortal, but loses all its life and crumbles back to dust in the grave. Moreover, the soul, which was immortal before, is no more than immortal afterwards. Is there any “swallowing up of mortality by life†here Just the reverse! Mortality, or the mortal part, is swallowed up by death! There is not as much life afterward as there was before, because after death only the soul lives, while the body which was alive before, is now dead. That view is in contradiction to what the Word of God actually says. We must reject it.

Paul knew the Corinthians would not be confused by his language in 2 Corinthians 5 about mortality being swallowed up by immortality, because he had already written his first epistle to them explaining when that immortality would be put on. “… in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump… this mortal must put on immortality. THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.†1 Corinthians 15:52-54. When would death or mortality be “swallowed up†“THEN,†Paul said. When is THEN “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.†How can anyone stumble over the plain language of these verses

Paul was longing for that change from the earthly mortal body to the glorious immortal body. He stated that the change would take place on the resurrection-translation day. His chief hope seemed to center upon being translated without ever being “unclothed†in death. He yearned to “be clothed upon†by translation at the coming of Jesus, so that he be not found “naked†(in the grave). Translation would mean that mortality would be “swallowed up of life.â€Â

Nevertheless, he hastened to express confidence, as we have just pointed out, in the certainty of a resurrection when death would be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:54). In either case, whether by translation or resurrection, he would be “clothed upon†with the immortal body. Either mortality would be “swallowed up†by being translatedor death would be “swallowed up†by being resurrected.

Paul does not linger over the “unclothed†state, because his hopes rested in the new body to be received at Christ's coming. He could not be “forever with the Lord†until that change took place “in the twinkling of an eye.†The interim sleep of death in the grave held no appeal for Paul, since it would seem but a fractional second of utter oblivion to the one who died. Looking beyond the uninviting nakedness of death to the land of life, Paul ruled out any possibility of a state between death and the resurrection when disembodied spirits could be present with the Lord.

7 Made for What

The apostle makes one other point in 2 Corinthians 5 that destroys the idea of a disembodied soul. In verse 5, he affirms that God “hath wrought us for the selfsame thing.†What thing For what purpose had God made man Paul answers that we might enjoy a state of being in which “mortality is swallowed up of life.†Is that condition the separate existence of an immortal soul Impossible! Because if man had not sinned, he would have reached that state without seeing death. God’s purpose in making man would have been realized without death taking place, and the idea of an immortal soul would never have existed. Surely no one could believe that God “wrought us†for the “selfsame†purpose of sinning, dying and leaving the body in some invisible soul form.

8 Paul’s Earnest Expectation

A related text that Paul penned to the Philippians has been twisted and misinterpreted much like 2 Corinthians 5. Here again Paul speaks of his “earnest expectation.†Philippians 1:20-24:

“According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour; yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.â€Â

First, let’s clarify what Paul’s “earnest expectation†really was in regard to being with Christ. Did he expect to be with Him at death Not one text of the Bible teaches such a thing. Let the apostle answer for himself concerning his “earnest expectation.†“For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.†Romans 8:19. What was that manifestation when the sons of God would be revealed Verse 23 answers, “… we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.†Paul’s earnest expectation and hope was for the time when his body would be redeemed.

He did not say one word in Philippians 1:20-24 about the TIME he would be with the Lord. Some have attempted to interpret this text as though Paul said he wanted to depart and be with Christ immediately, but the word immediately is not in the scripture. In these verses, Paul does not specifically state WHEN he will be with the Lord.

He only states his “earnest expectation†to be there. We have found from other scriptures that his expectation centered on the resurrection or translation of the body. Other passages further clarify without any equivocation when the great apostle expected to be with Christ.

Romans 8:23
At the redemption of the body
1 Corinthians 5:5
In the day of the Lord Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
At the last trump

Colossians 3:4
When Christ our life shall appear

1 Thessalonians 4:16
When the Lord descends with a shout

2 Thessalonians 2:1
At the coming of the Lord

2 Timothy 4:7, 8

At “that day†(by which Paul means the second advent of Christ)
Paul had two conditions in view: to live or to die. Between these two, he was in a strait. The cause of God on earth drew him here, but he was weary from beatings, stonings, and bodily suffering. He almost felt that death would be desirable over the struggle of living. So evenly balanced were the influences drawing him in both directions that he hardly knew which course he preferred. Nevertheless, he said it was more needful for the church that he remain here to give them the benefit of his counsel and labor.

9 How to be with the Lord

Paul positively refuted the idea of an immortal spirit leaving the body at death when he pinpointed the ONLY means of being with the Lord. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 he said, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO shall we ever be with the Lord.â€Â

Please note the significance of that word “SO.†It means “in this way,†“in this manner,†“by this means.†“SO,†in this manner, by this means, “shall we ever be with the Lord.†By describing, without any limitation, the way and means by which we go to be with the Lord, Paul precludes every other means. If there is any other way of getting to be with the Lord, then Paul’s language is a stupendous falsehood. If we go to be with the Lord by means of our immortal spirit when we die, then we do not go to be with Him by means of the visible coming of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead and the change of the living. Then Paul’s words would not be true. There is no possible way of avoiding this conclusion, except by claiming that the descent of the Lord from heaven, the mighty shout, the trumpet, the resurrection of the dead, and the change of the living, ALL TAKE PLACE WHEN A PERSON DIESâ€â€a position too absurd to be considered.

Since Paul himself so carefully defines the manner of going to be with the Lord, why should man try to interpret Philippians 1:23 to mean something contrary to the writer’s own explanation As we have just noted from 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, Paul knew of only two ways to be with the Lordâ€â€by translation or resurrection.

10 To Live Or to Die

He expressed the hope that “Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.†Paul tied life and death to a physical body, not some soul or spirit. The alternatives that drew him were either “to live†or “to die.†He was “in a strait†between these two. If he lived, Christ would be magnified, and if he died a martyr’s death, the cause of Christ would be magnified. It would be “gain†either way, both for him and for Christ.

But after considering the two alternatives, upon which he could not make up his mind (to live or to die), Paul is suddenly struck with a third choice, which he quickly declares to be “far better†than the other two. He described it as “having a desire to depart and to be with the Lord, which is far better.†Better than what Clearly, than either of the two he had just mentioned (living or dying). Again, we are reminded of Paul’s overwhelming desire to be translated without passing through the “unclothed†state of death. That was his deepest desire. Once more, we are constrained to ask: When did Paul expect this translation to take place Moreover, when did he anticipate the change from mortality to immortality He answers: “when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, THEN shall ye also appear with him in glory.†Colossians 3:4. When is THEN At His second Coming. Have these appeared with Him in glory already No. It will happen THEN, when He shall appear.

John agrees with Paul, “But we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.†1 John 3:2. Think for a moment about the implications of that statement.

Johot have believed that the righteous dead were already in the presence of the Lord. If so, they were able to see him “as he is†at that very moment, and they would already be changed into the “likeness†of Christ. However, he refutes the idea that any have seen him yet and declares unequivocally that it will all happen “when he shall appear.â€Â

11 Translation or Resurrection

Finally, let us take note that in case Paul was not permitted to depart this life by translation and had to depart by death, he did not expect to be with Christ until the resurrection. He clarifies this in 2 Timothy 4:6-8: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time for my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: HENCEFORTH there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me AT THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.â€Â

In the clearest possible language, Paul not only explains but also emphasizes that his reward will be given at the coming of Christ. Even though his departure in death was “at hand,†he did not expect to be with Christ immediately. He expected it “henceforth.†The crown of immortality was “laid up for me,†he said. He would receive it “in that day†with others who would “love his appearing.†Surely, those of us living today should anticipate that same glorious appearing when we too shall receive, with Paul, the crown of righteousness, which fadeth not away.
 
Atrhick,

I read your entire post, and I must say that I am impressed and appreciate the carefulness and thoughtfulness with which you considered the Scriptures in question. As this is an important topic though I would like to interject some of my own thoughts in which I would differ a bit from what you have surmised about the "intermediate period" between our death and ressurection.

First of all I will say that I agree completely with your view that you have presented about the ressurection and translation of our bodies and how that embodies our future hope. Let me though consider some further implications of what you have already explored about the Spirit being given to us as an earnest and us being in Christ, and especially on what Paul said about how "To live is Christ and to die is gain".

Now let me point out something which you did not specifically elaborate on but which is implied by your arguement. With the definition of the soul as tied to the body, and the distinction between our mortal body which dies and the ressurection body which we will recieve at the last day, this leaves out any explanation of what, if anything, happens to us between that time. In denying that the soul is immortal apart from the body (which seemed to be an arguement of yours - correct me if I have misunderstood), you effectively do away with the (usually) only other alternative view of "soul sleep" (which I disagree with anyway). But with that out of view, then it would imply (without an alternate explanation - as I will try to Biblically supply) that in some wise we "cease" to exist apart from a mortal or ressurection body. This is clearly not possible and is not in keeping with the unceasing life we have in Christ.

Now the Bible speaks some times as if the soul and spirit are both eternal, but I think it is primarily our spirit which is the eternal counterpart of us, and the Bible clearly says, "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God is the custodian of our spirits, which are clearly in His hands when we die. Now, let me visit who we are in Christ and how this does not change after mortal death.

You mentioned the verses that say, "but unto all them also that love his appearing", "when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, THEN shall ye also appear with him in glory", and "But we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". That theme of appearing is very important, and is a grand anticipation of when Christ will finally be made manifest to mankind and then we will recieve our ressurection bodies (1 Peter 1:5, 5:1; "revealed" - Greek: apokalypto), but let us also note what His appearing entails. Colossians 3:3-4 is of tantamount importance here: "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." When we die physically we do not cease to be in Christ, that would be impossible! Instead we are still hidden in Christ, the very substance and reality of our identity in Him, is kept safe in Christ until that day when we are revealed with Christ and given our ressurection bodies. "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is" (1 John 3:2). This is in keeping with your time table which you showed above (it has not yet been revealed because it is still "hidden"), but this irrefutably also shows that we are continually hidden and alive in Christ (who is our life) spiritually until such a day as we will recieve our ressurection bodies when Christ is revealed.

Even in the body when Paul mentions being "apart from the Lord" he means so only in terms of our body, because he clearly understands that the Spirit is in us as a pledge and that we are in Christ and Christ in us and that we are not seperated from Christ, especially with His promise to never leave us or forsake us. Paul also understands our spiritual regeneration in Christ to have already secured us a place with Christ in heaven, and so in keeping with what he says in Colossians 3:1, "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God", he says similarly in Ephesians 2:6, "[God] raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus". We have already been spiritually regenerated, raised, and seated with Christ in heaven, but what Paul yearns for is the culmination of all this in the day when we will also be "bodily present" with Christ in the ressurection. The thing is however, if we are already seated with Christ in heaven, we cannot then suddenly be "un-seated" by our mortal death, because we remain in Christ (who is our very life), and are hidden with Christ in God until Christ is revealed and manifested at the ressurection.

It then follows that we in some wise will be present with Christ spiritually and consciously after death until the time of ressurection. I do not believe in soul sleep or any such other doctrine, because we will never cease to be with Christ in the spirit and by His Spirit given to us.

I look forward to your responses and thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
atrhick,,

A very thorough and exegeted post! I also have argued as you have that these verses clearly are talking about the resurrection, linking the terms 'swallowed up' with the resurrection of 1 Cor 15, and that the 'heavenly temple' is the resurrection body. A more detailed look at the remaining verses of chapter 4 and verses 1-5 of chapter 5 show clearly that Paul was speaking of the resurrection body and not an immortal soul.

However, I never linked Romans 8 with the idea of the Spirit or the text in Ephesians as well. Wonderful links and parallells there! You have given me further insight and 'ammunition' that shows the traditional interpretation of 2 Cor 5:8 of an immortal souls going to heaven at death is an awful ignorance of context and a prime example of eisegetical proof texting gone horribly awry.

It is very hard to argue against your excellent post. Sadly, many will do just that by simply ignore your exegesis by clinging to the 'cursory glance' method of bible study because it is simple and the way it always has been.

Again, thanks so much for this post. If only everyone would put their Greek dualism glasses aside and just let the scriptures speak for itself and interpret itself, how wonderful it would be!
 
Guibox,

Do you have any thoughts on my further explication on atrhick's detailed post? I mostly tried to further clarify what happens intermediately between the death of our mortal body and the assumption of our resurrection body. Your thoughts would be welcomed in addition to atrhick's.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
Now the Bible speaks some times as if the soul and spirit are both eternal, but I think it is primarily our spirit which is the eternal counterpart of us, and the Bible clearly says, "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God is the custodian of our spirits, which are clearly in His hands when we die. Now, let me visit who we are in Christ and how this does not change after mortal death.

The problem here, cyber, is that it is not the 'spirits of Christians' that go to heaven, but the spirit of ALL men. 'Spirit' here is translated 'ruach' which means 'breath' or 'wind'. This is the life force, the breath breathed into man at creation. This is what animates man and makes him a 'nephesh' a living soul. When man dies, this spirit goes back to God. This 'spirit' is not the cogitating, emotional thinking part of man that consciously exists outside and without the body.

Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 says that all living things, both man and animal have this 'ruach', this 'spirit'.

cybershark5886 said:
You mentioned the verses that say, "but unto all them also that love his appearing", "when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, THEN shall ye also appear with him in glory", and "But we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". That theme of appearing is very important, and is a grand anticipation of when Christ will finally be made manifest to mankind and then we will recieve our ressurection bodies (1 Peter 1:5, 5:1; "revealed" - Greek: apokalypto), but let us also note what His appearing entails. Colossians 3:3-4 is of tantamount importance here: "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." When we die physically we do not cease to be in Christ, that would be impossible! Instead we are still hidden in Christ, the very substance and reality of our identity in Him, is kept safe in Christ until that day when we are revealed with Christ and given our ressurection bodies. "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is" (1 John 3:2). This is in keeping with your time table which you showed above (it has not yet been revealed because it is still "hidden"), but this irrefutably also shows that we are continually hidden and alive in Christ (who is our life) spiritually until such a day as we will recieve our ressurection bodies when Christ is revealed..

Nobody is saying that when we die we 'cease to be in Christ'. To be 'hidden in Christ' doesn't mean that our immortal souls are enjoying heavenly bliss at the moment. All these passages are saying is that when Christ comes, we are made anew and are 'just as He is'. To read 'immortality at death' into these verses is to read way to much into what the texts do not say.

cybershark5886 said:
Even in the body when Paul mentions being "apart from the Lord" he means so only in terms of our body, because he clearly understands that the Spirit is in us as a pledge and that we are in Christ and Christ in us and that we are not seperated from Christ, especially with His promise to never leave us or forsake us. Paul also understands our spiritual regeneration in Christ to have already secured us a place with Christ in heaven, and so in keeping with what he says in Colossians 3:1, "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God", he says similarly in Ephesians 2:6, "[God] raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus". We have already been spiritually regenerated, raised, and seated with Christ in heaven, but what Paul yearns for is the culmination of all this in the day when we will also be "bodily present" with Christ in the ressurection. The thing is however, if we are already seated with Christ in heaven, we cannot then suddenly be "un-seated" by our mortal death, because we remain in Christ (who is our very life), and are hidden with Christ in God until Christ is revealed and manifested at the ressurection.

You miss the metaphor of the passages. We are not physically 'seated at the right hand of God', but spiritually. This doesn't mean that when we die, we are then there in our spiritual form. These passages mean that now as a new creature in Christ, we have access to heavenly things we can 'bodly approach the throne of grace' due to our abiding in Christ.

cybershark, the scriptures cannot be taken in isolation. If what you are saying is true, then Paul completely contradicts himself in the the passages that arhtick has presented and others as well. Paul makes it clear that without the resurrection, there is no life at all...PERIOD, not in spiritual form, not in bodily form and not as a disembodied soul.

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then 'ye are yet in your sins, therefore, those that have fallen asleep in Christ have perished'.
 
May I ask a question? I hope this is in tune with the topic.

Q- Why is there so much emphasis on a bodily resurrection? Why do we assume it is the body that is resurrected? What about the many, many believers who for whatever reason, had their bodies totally destroyed when they died, as in bodies that were dismembered, or eaten by wild beasts like a tiger or lion, or who were burned at the stake, or in an accident, say like, 911?

Is there a "different" type of resurrection for those believers? If so, can someone supply us with Biblical proof?

I ponder over questions like these. 8-)


atrhick, you said this:

Paul positively refuted the idea of an immortal spirit leaving the body at death when he pinpointed the ONLY means of being with the Lord. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 he said, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and SO shall we ever be with the Lord.â€Â
Paul would have violated scripture if that's what he was implying and Josh even made mention of that when he said this:

Now the Bible speaks some times as if the soul and spirit are both eternal, but I think it is primarily our spirit which is the eternal counterpart of us, and the Bible clearly says, "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God is the custodian of our spirits, which are clearly in His hands when we die. Now, let me visit who we are in Christ and how this does not change after mortal death.
Also, guibox was quick to point out this:

The problem here, cyber, is that it is not the 'spirits of Christians' that go to heaven, but the spirit of ALL men. ...
I'm fairly convinced that the context of Eccl. 12:7 states that as well. I just don't read where the author makes any distinctions but do believe there is a distinction between soul and spirit.
 
Thank you for replying guibox. I am enjoying this very interesting and in-depth discussion.

guibox said:
The problem here, cyber, is that it is not the 'spirits of Christians' that go to heaven, but the spirit of ALL men. 'Spirit' here is translated 'ruach' which means 'breath' or 'wind'. This is the life force, the breath breathed into man at creation. This is what animates man and makes him a 'nephesh' a living soul. When man dies, this spirit goes back to God. This 'spirit' is not the cogitating, emotional thinking part of man that consciously exists outside and without the body.

Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 says that all living things, both man and animal have this 'ruach', this 'spirit'.

Yes, I am aware that the Ecclesiastes verse refers to ALL men. As I said God is the custodian of our spirits. For the wicked he consigns them to hell, and for the righteous (who are hidden in Christ) he keeps them and preserves their soul and spirit (as for "where?" I don't know. That's kind of under discussion right now - If "where?", is even an appropriate question to ask), and both the wicked and righteous are are kept where ever or however God deems until the resurrection of ALL men, "some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

As for the intricacies of the soul and spirit, which are admittedly sometimes interchanged, but which I still think are distinctive, please see my post here.

Here is a relevant excerpt from my view on the soul and spirit:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, in my understanding of the soul, the soul is the seat of the emotions, the intellect, and our personality. It pretty much is who we are, and anyone who goes on to be with Christ will have their soul preserved (we obviously retain our identity in Christ), while the Bible is also clear that for the wicked the soul can be destroyed ("rather fear Him which is able to destroy both the soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28). It is interesting to note that Jesus came especially to save souls, not necessarily spirits. "He who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death" (James 5:20). Now however this is where the state of the spirit is of tantamount importance. I believe the ability and source and emanation of life for both our body and soul is the spirit. Thus an unsaved person is spiritually dead and once mortality takes its toll the soul will be destroyed along with the body in hell. This is perhaps what we can call the second death, eternal spiritual death. Christ however has given us His Spirit, and as Jesus has promised, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do indeed believe the spirit is eternal no matter what, but the matter of the soul is up to God: whether he preserves and saves your soul (also as David said, " You shall not leave my soul in Sheol"), or whether he destroys it with your body in hell (Matthew 10:28).


guibox said:
Nobody is saying that when we die we 'cease to be in Christ'. To be 'hidden in Christ' doesn't mean that our immortal souls are enjoying heavenly bliss at the moment. All these passages are saying is that when Christ comes, we are made anew and are 'just as He is'. To read 'immortality at death' into these verses is to read way to much into what the texts do not say.

You are avoiding making a direct statement (like atrhick) though about what you think does happen during that "intermediate period". We don't just "cease to be" and then "re-exist" when we are ressurected. I am thus saying that upon death we are still yet spiritually alive (and although it is a bit of a different argument I also would argue for "conscious" as well) in Christ. Not necessarily "in heaven" persay, as we might "physically" think of it, but certainly spiritually with Christ since we are in Him and spiritually (as you rightfully said - not yet bodily) seated with Christ in heaven. That is my argument, and I clearly stated how I meant that only spiritually, but how Paul was looking forward to that day when it would culminate in the bodily resurrection. If you can, please address that; about our spiritual aliveness in Christ at death, and our inseparability from Christ, etc. Because, that clearly makes us present with Christ spiritually (even if you don't want to concede "consciously") upon death. And I don't know what you mean to reference by mentioning "heavenly bliss", but we experience a "spiritual bliss" (peace, comfort, eternal life) in a sense (if "bliss" is appropriate terminology) even now because of our relationship with Christ, and we surely will be comforted in Christ and our spirit will not be tormented in turmoil like those who will be in hell until the final resurrection and judgment.

guibox said:
You miss the metaphor of the passages. We are not physically 'seated at the right hand of God', but spiritually.

This I have already acknowledged, and that was the original sense I was banking on in the first place. It is because of that spiritual reality that we can be alive and in Christ (hidden with Christ - who is our life) apart from a mortal or resurrection body. That was my argument.

guibox said:
This doesn't mean that when we die, we are then there in our spiritual form.

Sure it does, just as we are right now, presently. I'm not discussing at the moment vague speculations on "where" this might take place or is, thus I'm not saying necessarily that we will we waltzing around in heaven with our mansions (because it is clear that those rewards only come later at the resurrection and judgment) but that just as we are in Christ, hidden with Christ, and seated in heaven along with Christ all right now spiritually that that is the primary form that we will inhabit when separated from our mortal bodies. We might be little more than spectators, waiting for the resurrection to come but I definitely believe that we will be with Christ in spiritual form.

guibox said:
These passages mean that now as a new creature in Christ, we have access to heavenly things we can 'bodly approach the throne of grace' due to our abiding in Christ.

Yes, spiritual realities and privileges which are not reversed once we die. That was my point.

guibox said:
cybershark, the scriptures cannot be taken in isolation.

I'm not trying to, but neither does it (the Scriptures) in any way sanction some kind of spiritual aloofness to our identity in Christ once we die, or some "nullification" of our being apart from the body. We are not "stored away" for some spiritual reawakening upon resurrection. That most emphatically is not the hope that Paul said we had to look forward to in Christ. The realities are permanent for the one who is saved.

guibox said:
Paul makes it clear that without the resurrection, there is no life at all...PERIOD, not in spiritual form, not in bodily form and not as a disembodied soul.

That is not true. You disregard the very verses I was trying to use to show you that! We are in Christ, who is our.... what?..... : life. Since we are not apart from Christ, and quite to the contrary we will remain hidden in that mysterious way in Christ until He is revealed at the resurrection (when it will also be revealed what we will be), we will remain alive in Christ.... forever, in the body or out of it. To say otherwise is to deny the power of Christ to keep alive.

What did Jesus say to the "greatly mistaken" Sadducees: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken" (Mark 12:27). This proves that we will be indeed alive in God though physically dead. Please ponder on that.

guibox said:
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then 'ye are yet in your sins, therefore, those that have fallen asleep in Christ have perished'.

As a closing note on this, the reason the resurrection is so connected with eternal life is because it is the culmination and object and ultimate effect of our life in Christ. It was what even Jesus looked forward to during his passion, to 'the joy set before him' ("who for the joy set before Him endured the cross" - Hebrews 12:2) If there was no resurrection, then life in Christ in such a form would be pointless. We will be kept that way only temporarily in light of our earnest expectation that we will eventually be bodily with Christ one day.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
vic C. said:
May I ask a question? I hope this is in tune with the topic.

Q- Why is there so much emphasis on a bodily resurrection? Why do we assume it is the body that is resurrected? What about the many, many believers who for whatever reason, had their bodies totally destroyed when they died, as in bodies that were dismembered, or eaten by wild beasts like a tiger or lion, or who were burned at the stake, or in an accident, say like, 911?

Is there a "different" type of resurrection for those believers? If so, can someone supply us with Biblical proof?

I ponder over questions like these. 8-)

Yeah, I've heard some people speculate that the bodily resurrection will be out of the previous elements of our bodies, etc. But be that as it may, it is not a necessary conclusion, if it is even appropriate at all. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul addresses this very question:

"35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"...37 you do not sow the body which is to be... 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

Our bodies will not be of the same type or substance as our mortal shell which we sow in corruption, for we will have a spiritual body from God. That being said, I still have to wonder if God cannot glorify our previous physical bodies to such a state, because I believe that currently it is reasonable to assume that Christ still has the holes in his hands and feet as testimony of His crucifixion (and John in his vision saw the lamb still yet displayed "as if slain" - Revelation 5:6), because Daniel clearly says that the Son of Man will return to claim his kingdom, speaking of his humanity, and he will still be the Son of Man when he rules during the Millenium. So I guess the committee is still out on that one. ;)

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Owe my beloved brothers and sisters :D I am sad because I stop looking at this thread for about 2 or 3 days after I though on one wanted to talk about this topic. Please forgive my absents.

There has need so many questions asked and I don’t see any more for me to answer :oops: but don't worry I have read everyone’s reply.... but have anyone asked themselves why this doctrine is so important to get correctly?

well what if I was to make a statement like " it’s one of the keys to understanding end time prophecy and also to not be deceived in the end time" I know I am sure this has tickled your curiosity a bit now, and I will await questions ;-)
 
vic C. said:
Q- Why is there so much emphasis on a bodily resurrection? Why do we assume it is the body that is resurrected? What about the many, many believers who for whatever reason, had their bodies totally destroyed when they died, as in bodies that were dismembered, or eaten by wild beasts like a tiger or lion, or who were burned at the stake, or in an accident, say like, 911?
I believe that there is every reason to believe that our real eternal destination is in "physical" bodies in a redeemed creation (i.e. earth), not in any kind of disembodied state in Heaven.

The physical resurrection of believers is entirely consistent with a central theme of the scriptures that is often overlooked and sometimes outright denied - the vindication (redemption) of the created order. We seem to focused on what happens to us and we miss the theme that God's redemption project includes his created world as well as the people in it.

The physicality of resurrection is consistent with this theme - the material world was declared "very good" and God will redeem it.

I see no reason why God should have any trouble at all resurrecting anyone, even if they were blown to bits. Even in this world, we know that over the course of 7 years or so, all the cells in our body are replaced - there is continuity of form but not of substance. So we have direct tangible evidence that "Fred" can indeed be reconstituted out of any old pile of atoms - it happens even in the present (in a sense).
 
Hello atrhick:

If that's a photo of you in your avatar, you had better hope that we are not only resurrected, but that we are transformed as well.......... :-D
 
cybershark5886 said:
Our bodies will not be of the same type or substance as our mortal shell which we sow in corruption, for we will have a spiritual body from God.
I think this is a correct assertion with the important qualification that we will indee have bodies. One big mistake people make is to read Paul's assertions about "spiritual bodies" and concluding a disembodied state - floating around forever in heaven, as it were. I think it can easily shown that this is not what Paul is saying.

cybershark5886 said:
That being said, I still have to wonder if God cannot glorify our previous physical bodies to such a state, because I believe that currently it is reasonable to assume that Christ still has the holes in his hands and feet as testimony of His crucifixion
I believe that the Scriptures teach both continuity and discontinuity between this world and the re-made earth. An example of this is precisely what you cite - the presence of the crucifixion marks in an otherwise glorified body for Jesus.
 
Drew said:
Hello atrhick:

If that's a photo of you in your avatar, you had better hope that we are not only resurrected, but that we are transformed as well.......... :-D


:-D :lol: That is very funny :lol: :-D


in term of bodys please read below "slowly"

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 
Drew said:
cybershark5886 said:
Our bodies will not be of the same type or substance as our mortal shell which we sow in corruption, for we will have a spiritual body from God.
I think this is a correct assertion with the important qualification that we will indee have bodies. One big mistake people make is to read Paul's assertions about "spiritual bodies" and concluding a disembodied state - floating around forever in heaven, as it were. I think it can easily shown that this is not what Paul is saying.

cybershark5886 said:
That being said, I still have to wonder if God cannot glorify our previous physical bodies to such a state, because I believe that currently it is reasonable to assume that Christ still has the holes in his hands and feet as testimony of His crucifixion
I believe that the Scriptures teach both continuity and discontinuity between this world and the re-made earth. An example of this is precisely what you cite - the presence of the crucifixion marks in an otherwise glorified body for Jesus.

I think that's a pretty good way to look at it. Thanks for the input. :)

Oh, and LOL @ the avatar thing. God accepts complete "apes" into heaven as well. ;)

God Bless,

~Josh
 
by atrhic
"Assuming for a moment that this is true, then what happens at death At death the body, which is mortal, does not become immortal, but loses all its life and crumbles back to dust in the grave. Moreover, the soul, which was immortal before, is no more than immortal afterwards. Is there any “swallowing up of mortality by life†here Just the reverse! Mortality, or the mortal part, is swallowed up by death!"

You know, I have argued this text just as atrhick as for many years and yet the profound logic of this passage mentioned by him escaped me all those years. Wow! I can't believe that so many blindly take vs 8 on the surface and backslappingly praise themselves for proving that the soul goes to heaven at death. It blows my mind how so many can blindly interpret one verse eisegetically simply to support the preconceived conclusions that they want to hear instead of allowing the scriptures to clearly interpret itself.
 
Hey guibox. I was wondering when you would return. I left a fairly sizable post above for you. I was hoping you could sincerely give me your thoughts on it. I like playing ideas back and forth until everything has been explored, so your response would be most welcome.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Cyber, I was confused before about what post you were referring to as you didn't address anything specific to me. The only one I could find that you might be referring to is this one so I will comment on it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Our bodies will not be of the same type or substance as our mortal shell which we sow in corruption, for we will have a spiritual body from God. That being said, I still have to wonder if God cannot glorify our previous physical bodies to such a state, because I believe that currently it is reasonable to assume that Christ still has the holes in his hands and feet as testimony of His crucifixion (and John in his vision saw the lamb still yet displayed "as if slain" - Revelation 5:6), because Daniel clearly says that the Son of Man will return to claim his kingdom, speaking of his humanity, and he will still be the Son of Man when he rules during the Millenium. So I guess the committee is still out on that one.

Yes, many people criticize the 'soul sleep' due to the argument that nothing is really made new but completely recreated. So how can somebody 'sleep in the grave' when there is nothing there to 'sleep'? Vic or Drew, I think, proposed at one time that our 'blueprint' exists in the mind of God to recreate what we were but in a spiritual body and better. This may be so and we really can't limit God as to what He can or can't do.

All I know is that eternal life is promised at the resurrection as a spiritual being and not as a disembodied soul. How God does this is up to Him and not my worry.
 
cybershark said:
What did Jesus say to the "greatly mistaken" Sadducees: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken" (Mark 12:27). This proves that we will be indeed alive in God though physically dead. Please ponder on that.

It doesn't require a great deal of pondering, if we look at the context:

... regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken. Mark 12:27,28 NASB

Jesus was speaking to the Sadducees concerning the resurrection. The Sadducees did not believe that the dead would rise again. Jesus said what he did to support the truth of the resurrection!

If the dead stay dead, as the Sadducees thought, then God is God of the dead, including Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But if the dead are raised to life again, then God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, though now dead, will rise again.

God first created a body. He breathed into it the breath of life. As someone pointed out, that breath was the life from God that was imparted to the body He created. When that life was imparted, Adam became a living soul (nepesh), that is, a living being.

If that spirit (or breath) goes back to the God that gave it, then a person is dead. Only a body remains. There is no "soul" anymore. The nepesh or "being" of the person no longer exists. The life force returns to God. That force is not a conscious entity. It is simply life. The person as such, no longer exists. In the resurrection, God is able to impart life again to the body. It is the "same" body in one sense, but an immortal body,and so different in another sense. After His resurrection, Jesus showed Thomas the nail prints of the nails which had been driven into His body. Yet, His body was now immortal, and He went through a closed door on one occasion.

It doesn't matter if beasts or cannibals eat parts of our body, some of which then becomes part of theirs. This fact was an argument against the resurrection in early Christian times. God is able to bring the molecules together or He may use similar molecules. It is said that every cell in our body is replaced in x number of years while we're still living. So this is not a problem. Also, God will transform the resurrected body.

If we go directly to heaven at death, it doesn't really matter whether we have a resurrection body or not. What advantage would it be? Some people consider the Rich Man and Lazarus story to depict the afterlife immediately after death. If so, both the rich man and Lazarus had "bodies" of some kind. The rich man asked Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue. If they had some kind of bodies in the intermediate state, why bother with a resurrection?

No wonder the resurrection is down-played in our modern Christian thinking.

On the other hand, the apostle Paul believed the resurrection was crucial.

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." I Corinthians 15:32
 
Paidion said:
cybershark said:
What did Jesus say to the "greatly mistaken" Sadducees: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken" (Mark 12:27). This proves that we will be indeed alive in God though physically dead. Please ponder on that.

It doesn't require a great deal of pondering, if we look at the context:

regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken. Mark 12:27,28 NASB

Yes, I've always been puzzled how so many can take this verse and make it support immediate life after death as a disembodied soul when we see clearly that the issue was the resurrection of the dead. It also needs to be pointed out the non-sensibility of the logic if taken to it's extreme: that those who die have ceased to have God as their God. Did not Paul say that 'neither life nor death' can separate us from the love of God? To say that as soon as my life leaves my body God ceases to be my God, and therefore I must have immediate life as a soul to keep God as my God is absurd.

The point Christ was trying to make to the Sadducees who denied the literal resurrection, is that if the dead are not raised from the dead, then Christ has no power over death and therefore is not the God of the living for He cannot raise them from the dead.
It blows my mind how so many can ignore the clear logic of this passage to so desperately hold on to their Greek dualistic philosophy that exegesis of the scriptures do not support one iota.
 
Guibox,

I would give you a link to the exact post I was refering to but I do not know how. The post I was hoping you would reply to is the one that begins "Thank you for replying guibox. I am enjoying this very interesting and in-depth discussion." That was a fairly lengthy post and all of that was in response to a previous post of yours. I was hoping you could respond in turn with some thoughts on where you might agree/disagree with me.

If you wish, you can repost what you have just said on my comment of what Jesus said to the Sadducees when it gets to that point in my post, but it would be better seen in context of my whole arguement (the whole post), and I do have a response in mind, but I want to wait until you look at & reply to my entire post (please) and the arguements I presented before and after that point.

Thanks,

~Josh
 
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