Questions around the old testament law

[CelticNinja]

I was a Christian, I believed earnestly. But I was circumcised as an infant. As I grew up I was exposed to truths, like gender equality, bodily/genital autonomy. Why was god sexist in subjecting only boys to the suffering (boys even today who receive pain management suffer, in the old testament were out right tortured in the name of your god for a covenant) What kind of god commands 8 day old boys to experience genital mutation? I was traumatized by my circumcision I went to a rape counseling center and I explained my trauma, I was told that by definition circumcision is sexual violence. So what was with god's predilection for having an interest in 8 day old baby boy's genitals, and is this why Catholic priests keep getting caught molesting boys?

Wouldn't an adult choosing circumcision for himself as a sacrifice be more meaningful as he'd willingly give up that part of himself?

In the old testament where the command to circumcise these infant boys it spoke of those who were bought with money, how young could Israelites buy children, and why did your god permit slavery? Why was god OK with Israelites beating their slaves in so far as the slave didn't die?

 

[Who Me]

Welcome to the forum.
I hope that you find answers here to your questions.

May I start with questions.

I was exposed to truths, like gender equality, bodily/genital autonomy.

May I ask how you know that what you say are truths actually are true?

You also question slavery, particularly slavery in the bible.

Again, how do you know that slavery is wrong?

 

[CelticNinja]

Welcome to the forum.
I hope that you find answers here to your questions.

May I start with questions.

May I ask how you know that what you say are truths actually are true?

You also question slavery, particularly slavery in the bible.

Again, how do you know that slavery is wrong?

Imagine yourself a a slave in ancient Israel, you work for your master, they may even be generous in the amount of food they give, and a bed and blanket for your sleep, grand ol' yeah you can't choose for yourself what you want to do, ADL's you're too busy servicing your master, but it all good. One day your master is enraged why? You may never know and it's not important he assaults you beats you within an in of your life, a few days you regain consciousness rather you master says he's sorry, and to almost see God patting your master on the back as to say the god approves of what he's done, can you trust your master? Will you ever feel safe?

If you think what I wrote is outlandish and laughable

"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." - Exodus 21:20-21

 

[Free]

I was a Christian, I believed earnestly. But I was circumcised as an infant. As I grew up I was exposed to truths, like gender equality, bodily/genital autonomy. Why was god sexist in subjecting only boys to the suffering (boys even today who receive pain management suffer, in the old testament were out right tortured in the name of your god for a covenant) What kind of god commands 8 day old boys to experience genital mutation? I was traumatized by my circumcision I went to a rape counseling center and I explained my trauma, I was told that by definition circumcision is sexual violence. So what was with god's predilection for having an interest in 8 day old baby boy's genitals, and is this why Catholic priests keep getting caught molesting boys?

Wouldn't an adult choosing circumcision for himself as a sacrifice be more meaningful as he'd willingly give up that part of himself?

In the old testament where the command to circumcise these infant boys it spoke of those who were bought with money, how young could Israelites buy children, and why did your god permit slavery? Why was god OK with Israelites beating their slaves in so far as the slave didn't die?

God allowed people to do things in the OT, most of which were common in all the surrounding cultures, but brought them to a higher standard. That in no way whatsoever means he approved of those things.

The real question is, what are you going to do with the knowledge of what he did for us, despite all that we have done both to each other and to him?

 

[CelticNinja]

God allowed people to do things in the OT, most of which were common in all the surrounding cultures, but brought them to a higher standard. That in no way whatsoever means he approved of those things.

The real question is, what are you going to do with the knowledge of what he did for us, despite all that we have done both to each other and to him?

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." Exodus 21:20- 21

God has made himself clear when He wanted things to stop and to bring people to a higher standard, said don't do it... Look at the 10 commandments, thou shalt not murder he had no issue saying murder was wrong but did didn't do that for slavery, why not?

 

[Who Me]

Imagine yourself a a slave in ancient Israel, you work for your master, they may even be generous in the amount of food they give, and a bed and blanket for your sleep, grand ol' yeah you can't choose for yourself what you want to do, ADL's you're too busy servicing your master, but it all good. One day your master is enraged why? You may never know and it's not important he assaults you beats you within an in of your life, a few days you regain consciousness rather you master says he's sorry, and to almost see God patting your master on the back as to say the god approves of what he's done, can you trust your master? Will you ever feel safe?

If you think what I wrote is outlandish and laughable

"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." - Exodus 21:20-21

F this was the norm today, then as your morality is from Christianity, you and I would justly be outraged.
But I am asking someone who is not a Christian and who presumably has a reasonable bases for their morality. So why are you critising the Old Testament.

What is the bases for your morality?

 

[CelticNinja]

F this was the norm today, then as your morality is from Christianity, you and I would justly be outraged.
But I am asking someone who is not a Christian and who presumably has a reasonable bases for their morality. So why are you critising the Old Testament.

What is the bases for your morality?

My morality comes from 3 pillars Universal Equality, Universal Justice, and Universal Truth.

So let's deal with the first universal equality. Boys were forced on the 8th day to have part of their genitals removed, no consent. Was it equal in that girls were exempt from this practice? No

On to point 2 universal justice. Is subjecting a person is is unable to communicate much less consent to genital cutting in the name of some covenant to a deity that I think fair to have doubt you can trust a just act? I don't think so

Truth, I'll let you answer this... Why?

 

[Free]

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." Exodus 21:20- 21

God has made himself clear when He wanted things to stop and to bring people to a higher standard, said don't do it... Look at the 10 commandments, thou shalt not murder he had no issue saying murder was wrong but did didn't do that for slavery, why not?

It isn't nearly as simple and straightforward as you seem to think. First, slavery was a fact of life in ancient times. Second, "slave" and "property" misleading translations:

Exo 21:20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.
Exo 21:21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money. (ESV)

That "the slave is his money," which is what the word means, suggests that "slave" actually refers to a "bond-servant" or "debt-servant," which is someone who willingly entered the employ of someone to whom they owed debt, to work it off. It was a last resort meant to help the poor, which other laws and regulations tried to prevent from happening in the first place (Deut. 15:1-11). Even then, every seven years, they were to be set free, and not empty-handed (Deut. 15:12-14) because they were all once slaves in Egypt (Deut. 15:16)

Third, there is more context to consider, which supports the first point:

Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exo 21:26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye.
Exo 21:27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth. (ESV)

This shows that these servants were more than just mere property, as they were considered in other ancient near East cultures and in more modern day slavery. They were to be treated with dignity and respect, but if something happened to them, the same was to be exacted on their "master." So, verses 20-21 likely refer to punishing a slave, and if death was not intentional, suggested by "if the slave survives a day or two," then there was nothing more to be done and the "master" was out his money. If the slave survived, then verses 24-27 kick in.

 

[Free]

My morality comes from 3 pillars Universal Equality, Universal Justice, and Universal Truth.

What do you even mean by "Universal" and where does that come from?

So let's deal with the first universal equality. Boys were forced on the 8th day to have part of their genitals removed, no consent. Was it equal in that girls were exempt from this practice? No

This is your argument for "Universal Equality"? You would rather women have been "circumcised" as well in the name of equality?

On to point 2 universal justice. Is subjecting a person is is unable to communicate much less consent to genital cutting in the name of some covenant to a deity that I think fair to have doubt you can trust a just act? I don't think so

So, bringing a newborn into a covenant relationship with himself is unjust, just because the newborn cannot communicate? I don't think you understand the nature of God's covenants, which is a part of the problem. Not to mention that there are health benefits to male circumcision.

Truth, I'll let you answer this... Why?

What do you mean by "Truth" and "Universal Truth"?

 

[CelticNinja]

What do you even mean by "Universal" and where does that come from?


This is your argument for "Universal Equality"? You would rather women have been "circumcised" as well in the name of equality?


So, bringing a newborn into a covenant relationship with himself is unjust, just because the newborn cannot communicate? I don't think you understand the nature of God's covenants, which is a part of the problem. Not to mention that there are health benefits to male circumcision.


What do you mean by "Truth" and "Universal Truth"?

1. Universal equality is the viewpoint that what is good for the good the good for the gander, so to use your example potentially yes if girls recieved female circumcision in equal measure as boys that would fit universal equality, BUT would that apply to Universal Justice? No so the requirement to satisfy both universal equality, and universal justice boys and girls should not be knife raped for God...

So you mention that circumcision as a relationship with God, so let's fundamentally change our society when we meet people for the first time, to start a relationship with them why don't we take a knife and cut off part of the genitals of the person or persons we are meeting for the first time, you know to start off on the right foot... That's not the same thing? Huh funny sure sounds like it to me...

If God is a good, loving and benevolent person and wants a relationship with us, he should first start by reaching us where we are, and at 8 days old an infant can't understand the concept of god let alone a covenant or a complex understanding of relationships.

Not let's say we're not talking about Yahweh, let's say I follow a god named cthuhlu and my god demands genital cutting, and I assure you that the reason is because he wants a relationship with the victims of genital cutting which he commanded, would you be on board? What if I told you that the reason it's important is because the genital cutting is because it's a symbol of a promise between Cthulhu and his followers.

Would you be on board? How can you explain 'the nature of God's covenants' or how genitial cutting leads to a relationship with God?

 

[Free]

1. Universal equality is the viewpoint that what is good for the good the good for the gander, so to use your example potentially yes if girls recieved female circumcision in equal measure as boys that would fit universal equality,

Does female "circumcision" bring health benefits? If not, why should there be universal quality in such a matter?

BUT would that apply to Universal Justice? No so the requirement to satisfy both universal equality, and universal justice boys and girls should not be knife raped for God...

That's a rather vulgar and highly inaccurate way to put things. It has absolutely nothing to do with rape, so this isn't a justice issue.

So you mention that circumcision as a relationship with God, so let's fundamentally change our society when we meet people for the first time, to start a relationship with them why don't we take a knife and cut off part of the genitals of the person or persons we are meeting for the first time, you know to start off on the right foot... That's not the same thing? Huh funny sure sounds like it to me...

No, not the same thing, not even close. Again, this shows that you have no understanding of the covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants.

If God is a good, loving and benevolent person and wants a relationship with us, he should first start by reaching us where we are,

He actually does, hence my question, which you didn't answer: What are you going to do with the knowledge of what he did for us, despite all that we have done both to each other and to him?

and at 8 days old an infant can't understand the concept of god let alone a covenant or a complex understanding of relationships.

You're imposing far too much current cultural ideology on the OT without understanding the nature of God's covenant and what it means for an entire people group to be a part of that covenant. This is not about me and my rights and what I want.

Not let's say we're not talking about Yahweh, let's say I follow a god named cthuhlu and my god demands genital cutting, and I assure you that the reason is because he wants a relationship with the victims of genital cutting which he commanded, would you be on board? What if I told you that the reason it's important is because the genital cutting is because it's a symbol of a promise between Cthulhu and his followers.

Would you be on board? How can you explain 'the nature of God's covenants' or how genitial cutting leads to a relationship with God?

First, you do realize that circumcision has not been a requirement since the resurrection of Jesus, yes? That the whole point was that he started a new covenant by shedding his own blood? We no longer have to shed our own blood to be in a covenant relationship with God.

Second, if your god, cthuhlu, was said to exist at the same time as Yahweh as just another god, then, no, not a chance, as he would be a false god. There are a large number of qualifications that need to be made to really answer that question.

Third, you didn't answer a couple of additional questions: What do you even mean by "Universal" and where does that come from? What do you mean by "Truth" and "Universal Truth"?

 

[CelticNinja]

Does female "circumcision" bring health benefits? If not, why should there be universal quality in such a matter?


That's a rather vulgar and highly inaccurate way to put things. It has absolutely nothing to do with rape, so this isn't a justice issue.


No, not the same thing, not even close. Again, this shows that you have no understanding of the covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants.


He actually does, hence my question, which you didn't answer: What are you going to do with the knowledge of what he did for us, despite all that we have done both to each other and to him?


You're imposing far too much current cultural ideology on the OT without understanding the nature of God's covenant and what it means for an entire people group to be a part of that covenant. This is not about me and my rights and what I want.


First, you do realize that circumcision has not been a requirement since the resurrection of Jesus, yes? That the whole point was that he started a new covenant by shedding his own blood? We no longer have to shed our own blood to be in a covenant relationship with God.

Second, if your god, cthuhlu, was said to exist at the same time as Yahweh as just another god, then, no, not a chance, as he would be a false god. There are a large number of qualifications that need to be made to really answer that question.

Third, you didn't answer a couple of additional questions: What do you even mean by "Universal" and where does that come from? What do you mean by "Truth" and "Universal Truth"?

Does female circumcision have health benefits... Yes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoridectomy
Malignancies
edit
A clitoridectomy is often done to remove malignancy or necrosis of the clitoris. This is sometimes done along with a radical complete vulvectomy. Surgery may also become necessary due to therapeutic radiation treatments to the pelvic area.[3]

Removal of the clitoris may be due to malignancy or trauma.[3][4]

Clitoromegaly and other conditions
edit
Female infants born with a 46,XX genotype but have a clitoris size affected by congenital adrenal hyperplasia and are treated surgically with vaginoplasty that often reduces the size of the clitoris without its total removal. The atypical size of the clitoris is due to an endocrine imbalance in utero.[1][5] Other reasons for the surgery include issues involving microphallism and those who have Müllerian agenesis. Treatments on children raise human rights concerns.[6]

You think my term is vulgar and inaccurate. OK let's walk you through this, at what age can a person consent? Usually around adulthood right? Is the excuse she didn't say no valid? No as she may be intoxicated, unconscious etc...

So male circumcision is done to minors without consent and it's permanently effects their genitals and sexual life for the rest of their lives... You're right circumcision isn't just rape its worse. A rape doesn't cut off part of the victims genitals yes there may be damage and emotional trauma, but the same could be said for circumcision and more.

Explain the covenant to me I apparently don't get it.

I'm imposing too much 'current cultural ideology' on the old testament? I thought God was all knowing, and you're saying he didn't know about things like consent or gender equality? Whoops just slipped his mind...

Circumcision isn't required any more that's true, but it's still practiced by Jews, Christians, and Muslims, even non religious people in the US and Canada do that to their sons because doctors make $600 on a 20 minute procedure...

Of Cthulhu was a fake god but Yahweh he's a real god... Not bound the the Cultural and Societies around the people who worship him... Got it...

You want me to answer the questions fine Universal... Mean everywhere universal equality want equality for all people regardless of sex, race, religion etc... You know EQUALITY

Universal Truth you already know this, I ask you who God is what do you say? Yahweh or the god of the bible/Israel I'm saying what is true is true for all and it defines integrity. Understand now...

 

[Free]

Does female circumcision have health benefits... Yes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitoridectomy
Malignancies
edit
A clitoridectomy is often done to remove malignancy or necrosis of the clitoris. This is sometimes done along with a radical complete vulvectomy. Surgery may also become necessary due to therapeutic radiation treatments to the pelvic area.[3]

Removal of the clitoris may be due to malignancy or trauma.[3][4]

Clitoromegaly and other conditions
edit
Female infants born with a 46,XX genotype but have a clitoris size affected by congenital adrenal hyperplasia and are treated surgically with vaginoplasty that often reduces the size of the clitoris without its total removal. The atypical size of the clitoris is due to an endocrine imbalance in utero.[1][5] Other reasons for the surgery include issues involving microphallism and those who have Müllerian agenesis. Treatments on children raise human rights concerns.[6]

Okay, so it isn't anything like male circumcision which prevents certain things and is not to deal with "malignancy or necrosis." Your explanation is no different than any sort of male surgery required to deal with cancer, necrosis, or some other issue.

You think my term is vulgar and inaccurate. OK let's walk you through this, at what age can a person consent? Usually around adulthood right? Is the excuse she didn't say no valid? No as she may be intoxicated, unconscious etc...

Again, nothing to do with circumcision. This isn't a sexual issue, but essentially a medical procedure. We do all sorts of medical procedures on newborns and young children without consent. As for "age of consent," it depends where in the world you live. Iran is supposedly set to lower it to 9.

So male circumcision is done to minors without consent and it's permanently effects their genitals and sexual life for the rest of their lives... You're right circumcision isn't just rape its worse. A rape doesn't cut off part of the victims genitals yes there may be damage and emotional trauma, but the same could be said for circumcision and more.

A part this isn't even necessary and has benefits to being removed. Doing it at an older age can have negative consequences.

Explain the covenant to me I apparently don't get it.

It's a rather large discussion:

"In divine covenants, God sovereignly establishes the relationship with His creatures. There are other nuances, but a divine covenant given after the fall is, fundamentally, one in which God binds Himself by His own oath to keep His promises.

Still, there are conditions attached to that oath on the human side. If the human party involved in a covenant with God does not keep the covenant’s conditions, there will be consequences. When Adam and Eve broke the commandment that they should not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they suered numerous consequences (Gen. 3:16–19). After the fall, the conditions of the Lord’s covenants with man are ultimately met by God Himself. For example, in Genesis 15, God swears that He will keep the conditions of His covenant with Abraham and will bear the consequences of Abraham’s breaking it. This does not mean the human conditions are irrelevant. We must trust in the Lord to benefit from His covenant promises. Abraham responded in faith: he “believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness” (v. 6), and the Lord blessed him. Even here, however, God by His Spirit grants to His elect the response of faith that they must exercise. God guarantees that His people will fulfill the condition of faith, and so guarantees our fulfillment of our covenant obligations Himself (Eph. 2:8–9).
...
One post-fall covenant stands out in this respect: the old covenant made with Israel. This was the covenant made under Moses between God and His people at Mount Sinai (Ex. 19–24). Some theologians have labeled this covenant as a law covenant in opposition to promise covenants, such as the Abrahamic or new covenant. However, this sharp distinction between law (conditional) and promise (unconditional) covenants often creates more problems than it solves in terms of understanding God’s covenants with humanity."

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/what-covenant

God chose Abraham through whom he would create a people that would live under the old covenant, the ultimate purpose of which was to bring salvation to all mankind. Being a part of the people of God required circumcision:

"After giving Abraham exceedingly great and precious promises, the Lord commanded him to give the covenant sign of circumcision to all the males in his household on the eighth day (see Gen. 17:11–14). Closely related to the covenant promise itself, the Lord calls the sign of circumcision “My covenant” (Gen. 17:10). God commanded Abraham to apply the sign of circumcision to the male reproductive organ since, in procreation, spiritual corruption passes from generation to generation. This corruption started with Adam and spread to all his posterity—Christ alone excluded. Since all have received a sin nature from Adam, God promised that He would deal with that corruption and bring renewal by means of a bloody judgment. In this way, circumcision was typifying the covenant promises of the gospel.
...
Circumcision, then, represented God’s covenant promise of curse and blessing. First, circumcision carried the promise of judgment for those who broke covenant with God. If someone rejected the covenant sign, he was rejecting the covenant Lord of the sign. If someone rejected the covenant Lord, he or she would incur the judgment of God. The act of “cutting” formed the signatory element of circumcision. The cutting away of the foreskin of the flesh denoted God’s promise to cut off covenant breakers from His presence, His people, and His blessing.

Simultaneously, the sign of circumcision represented the cutting away of the filth of the fallen, sinful human nature. This was the promise of covenant blessing in the gospel. If the demands of the covenant were met, God would fulfill His promise to cut off the sin of His people."

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/how-was-circumcision-a-sign-of-the-covenant

I'm imposing too much 'current cultural ideology' on the old testament? I thought God was all knowing, and you're saying he didn't know about things like consent or gender equality? Whoops just slipped his mind...

No, consent isn't an issue. God required males to be circumcised on the 8th day. And, it has nothing to do with gender equality.

 

[CelticNinja]

Free, are you a parent of a boy, and did you have his genitals mutillated? Did you carve your body my choice into his genitals? Im a trans woman, I have my penis and balls surgically removed and I felt little to no pain because adults have powerful pain meds like opiates the same pain meds that would kill a infant if you gave it to them, so boys don't receive proper pain management IF they get any at all. You are more interested in invalidating my lived experience because your boogeyman god is a pedophile with a too keen interest in your sons foreskin... I'm done talking to you...

 

[Free]

Circumcision isn't required any more that's true, but it's still practiced by Jews, Christians, and Muslims, even non religious people in the US and Canada do that to their sons because doctors make $600 on a 20 minute procedure...

Okay, then I don't understand the nature of your complaint on a Christian forum when circumcision is no longer required.

Of Cthulhu was a fake god but Yahweh he's a real god... Not bound the the Cultural and Societies around the people who worship him... Got it...

I'm not clear on what you're saying here. Do you even believe that the God of the Bible or a God exists?

You want me to answer the questions fine Universal... Mean everywhere universal equality want equality for all people regardless of sex, race, religion etc... You know EQUALITY

Universal Truth you already know this, I ask you who God is what do you say? Yahweh or the god of the bible/Israel I'm saying what is true is true for all and it defines integrity. Understand now...

I agree that truth is objective and absolute, but I base that on my belief in God. On what do you base your claims to your moral pillars?

 

[Free]

Free, are you a parent of a boy,

No.

Im a trans woman, I have my penis and balls surgically removed and I felt little to no pain because adults have powerful pain meds like opiates the same pain meds that would kill a infant if you gave it to them, so boys don't receive proper pain management IF they get any at all. You are more interested in invalidating my lived experience because your boogeyman god is a pedophile with a too keen interest in your sons foreskin... I'm done talking to you...

How can I be "more interested in invalidating [your] lived experience" when this is the first time you even mentioned your experience?

I will point out that you're basing all your arguments on theism, in particular on Judeo-Christian values. You speak of "Universal Equality, Universal Justice, and Universal Truth," but without a belief in God, it's just all subjective and by definition cannot be universal in any sense. It all becomes your opinion and you're the sole arbiter of what you believe equality is, what you believe justice is, and what you believe truth is.