Questions from an atheist.

[Trinity]

Hello everyone. I have a few questions I was hoping some of your members could answer for me. A little background about myself- was raised Christian, went to church at least once a week most of my life. Got into teen years, taught Sunday School, started asking questions. Was told it was a matter of faith. When I pushed for answers, was told questioning the bible was blasphemy, and basically to sit down, shut up, and donate money. I thought, how is this different from a cult? At least in Scientology you get to meet celebrities. Throw in a few members of the church acting in shameful, sometimes adulterous ways, and it didn't take long for me to choose atheism. I figured, if I am working so hard to spend eternity with these people, I'd rather go to hell.

Anyway, some conversations with a Christian friend have brought up some of my questions that have never been answered. Of course, the internet wasn't around when I was a teen, so I obviously didn't have access to as many people, lol. So if you'd care to answer, I'd appreciate it. If you want to call me a blasphemous sinner, eh, I am used to it.

1. If God is such a brilliant, omnipitant, loving God, why did he choose to sacrifice his own child in such a heinous way? How can any of you justify that? If you are a parent, do you believe that the only way to prove love to one of your children is to torture, beat, and kill another child? If not, how can you respect any God who would do that? Is God so stupid he couldn't come up with a more humane way to 'save' us all? And if he is truly that stupid, why would you choose to worship and respect him?

2. Christians believe that everyone has a purpose, that every life was planned. What is the purpose of say, a child in Africa being born, only to live a few years, and to suffer and starve before she dies at the age of 4? How can you respect a God that so callously treats the innocent life of a child that way? What purpose to that suffering could there possibly be?

3. Why do you believe Christians have the right to go into third world countries, convert people, and convince people not to use birth control, only to increase the size of an extremely poor population, causing more starvation and suffering as a result? I know Catholics are more famous for this, but Christians do it as well. Why do you believe God wants more children in the world starving? And if you do believe that is what he wants, which is what I assume or you wouldn't force women to have children that, with the use of birth control never would have been born, how can you respect a God that encourages the suffering of children?

Well, I have a lot more, but hopefully if I keep it short enough I'll get some answers. I really am not expecting any, as I have not gotten them in 15+ years. I am not trying to attack anyone or anyones beliefs, just truly trying to understand.

And please, PLEASE, if your only answer is that it is a matter of faith, don't respond. You will only push me farther into my atheism, and that is not what I am trying to accompish with this. Thanks for your time.

 

[Klee shay]

I have a friend who was raised in a cult church, and it was totally different to the experience I had with God. I must say what you're taught from the outset (or the seeds which are sown) will define how you perceive God first of all. If the seeds sown in your faith were hypocritcal and self-interested ones then no wonder you see God as such a cruel dictator.

I will answer your questions but please be aware that not much in your mind will change until you start to see your faith as freedom to choose rather than "toe the line or burn in hell".

1. If God is such a brilliant, omnipitant, loving God, why did he choose to sacrifice his own child in such a heinous way?

Jesus laid down his life first in order for God to allow mankind to take it. This is the freedom Jesus used to express his love for the Father. Did God express his love in return by sparing his son's life though? No...God expressed his love by raising his Son from the dead and granting Him eternal life, so that neither death, pain or injustice could ever hurt him again. Jesus is not dead...he lives...such is the love of His Father.

Because mankind has the freedom to choose how they conduct their affairs, God did not stop mankind from killing his Son at the time, but that same respect he demonstrated for freedom of choice - he granted His Son's request before he died to forgive mankind for ALL their sins - past and present. That is the love of an omnipitant God.

God took what mankind was going to do anyway, and he created eternal life for those in this world who are innocent, selfless and who suffer at the hands of mankind as well.

2. Christians believe that everyone has a purpose, that every life was planned. What is the purpose of say, a child in Africa being born, only to live a few years, and to suffer and starve before she dies at the age of 4? How can you respect a God that so callously treats the innocent life of a child that way? What purpose to that suffering could there possibly be?

God cannot stop children from being born into poverty, abuse or war. These are the choices of mankind. God gave mankind the freedom to choose, the ability to procreate and instructions on how best to do this for the benefit of the world.

God is not going to take away mankind's freedom to choose or their ability to procreate, because of "some" who abuse His instructions and cause suffering. It is written in scripture there is none among us that are good, so who does God discriminate against when he stops people from procreating? The bad people or the bad-bad people? If you enjoy your freedom to choose and having children, then remember that privilledge goes all around. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. The rain must fall nonetheless so that life in general can continue.

3. Why do you believe Christians have the right to go into third world countries, convert people, and convince people not to use birth control, only to increase the size of an extremely poor population, causing more starvation and suffering as a result? I know Catholics are more famous for this, but Christians do it as well. Why do you believe God wants more children in the world starving? And if you do believe that is what he wants, which is what I assume or you wouldn't force women to have children that, with the use of birth control never would have been born, how can you respect a God that encourages the suffering of children?

Do Christians have the right to do this - well they appear to but it's certainly not the way Jesus taught. He left the towns which feared Him and went to the next, for this was His Father's will.

What you have today is Christians representing what they think are God's instructions, in a way contrary to how Jesus taught. Does God encourage the suffering of children, or does mankind who interprets God's instructions cause the suffering?

In His lifetime, Jesus never hurt one child - in fact He saved the lives of many. He gave back the children of destraut parents in absolute despair. Does this sound like a God of suffering to you? This is the true nature of God and it is the will of mankind which has distorted it for centuries. Even as I represent God to you now, I'm certain that I cannot get the message absolutely right for I'm an imperfect being with the ability to make mistakes.

Just keep in mind for the future that belief in God is your "choice" not a demand or expectation set by others.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm not going to be much help to you, Trinity, since I have absolutely no answers to your questions. In fact, I have a few questions of my own. For instance ...without intending to reopen a thread that was recently closed, I have no idea whatsoever why God would allow someone to be gentically engineered in such a way as to be homosexual only for them to be beaten to death (mostly figuratively) by Christians. And the Christians will give all kinds of GODLY reasons for doing so. :

What I do acknowledge in regard to some other issues, however, is that God is way above any human concept. The same way as an ant cannot comprehend what it's like to be human we cannot know why God allows or has done things that make us angry. I get angry at God fairly often. Much of the time these days I don't even like Him, let alone love Him. In fact, I find it difficult to reason that He and Jesus - so much easier for me to relate to - are supposed to be one and the same. God comes across as an all-powerful bully who is waiting to zap people to hell merely for not believing in Him. And yet, some inner feeling tells me that I must have it wrong.

A few years ago I would have bored you to death with 'the faith' reasons for believing in God that you don't care to hear about. And I don't blame you. Books abound with 'faith' stories and, if anything, they may only serve to put the 'guilt trip' on people who don't appear to have the faith required. As I say, I don't have the answers to your questions as well as to some of my own. But to side with atheism would never be the way I could go. I know that there ARE answers to my questions and they may well be answered one day. Right now, however, I'm in the dark. The best - or worst - that I can do is acknowledge that I don't know. The lack of answers to questions does not mean that there are NO answers.

Meanwhile I'll just get mad at God. I'm sure that He's big enough to handle me.

 

[Trinity]

Klee- thank you for the time consuming and thoughtful response, I really appreciate it. If you don't mind I have some questions for you based on your responses.

In response to the questions about children being born to suffer, it sounds to me as if you are saying you believe these children are born b/c people made the choice to have them, not b/c god 'willed' them into existance. This is contrary to what I have always been taught, but exactly what I myself have always believed. And I can remember 7 churches I attended- I am sure there were many more, as my mom was a consumate church hopper, but I only remember 7- and all said the same thing: basically a child is born b/c god had a plan for that child and found a way for it to live. This goes along with my question about birth control and why Christians don't like it, it interferes with god's ability to create life as he sees fit, etc. I don't want to put words into your mouth, so please correct me if I am not understanding you.

And as far as Christians forcing people to stop using birth control, again I agree with your take, however it is contrary to everything I have heard. I believe god would be pissed at people who chose to bring innocent children into a world of suffering and pain. We were given the miracle of children, and we have slapped god in the face by treating them the way we do, IMO.

As for Jesus and the cross, again, you have said things I have never heard before. What you say makes more sense than anything I have ever heard before, but to make sure we are on the same page, let me rephrase.

You are basically saying that we have free will. Jesus knew this, and he chose to go through this for mankind. God does not go around muddling in people's free will, so he let Jesus do this, even tho it was painful to see it. And when his son asked god about the eternal life deal, he granted his sons dying wish.

A much better story than I had been raised to believe, but let me ask you this. If this is true, and it wasn't Jesus' destiny to die on the cross, and god didn't create him specifically for this destiny, why was he created? I mean, its easy to talk about free will, but if you are god's son, kinda hard to say no, you know? I look forward to your reply.

Sputnik- actually, the conversation with the friend that led me here was about religion and belief. I can say without a doubt that I HATE organized religion. I don't believe it has anything to do with god, its is about power, money, and control. Maybe it is harsh calling myself an atheist, this is what I am trying to work out. Maybe I am not an atheist, maybe I do believe in god, but I sure have a vastly different view of him than the bible, and every church I have ever been to.

See, the god that *I* believe in, I don't get mad at or hate, b/c I don't believe he has this much control. My opinion about god is like this. I have a beautiful, very large aquarium, which I have obviously created an ecosystem within. I hand selected all the fish for it, the plants, etc. I LOVE my fish tank and my fish. But I have no control over whether the fish like eachother or treat eachother well or not. I have no control over whether my fish mate and have babies, only to have them eaten up by the other fish in the tank. I can only stand by, after creating this life for them, and watch, and hope they are happy, and that everything works out. Thats kinda how I see god. But when I tell Christians this, I might as well be defacating on the bible. Sure, some act accepting of my views, but you can see in their eyes they think I am wrong, not yet saved, etc. It's not a true acceptance, or even willingness to see things from my view, you know?

Thank you for responding to my post, it's nice to see someone else frustrated over the 'faith' answer.

 

[ArtGuy]

I would like to make a general comment, Trinity, rather than tackling your individual points. Hopefully you don't mind.

Religious belief is an intensely personal thing. It's about a relationship between you and God, and it, by its design, should have little to do with other people. This isn't to say that other people should be completely ignored, only that you shouldn't develop opinions based solely on how you see others acting.

It seems to me that you may have stopped believing partly based on the actions of other Christians, and a desire to not be associated with them. This isn't really the way to go. There are a lot of Christians who do bad things, who act out of hate and malice, or who do things or hold beliefs that are just plain dumb. This doesn't mean that Christianity is bad, though. It means that there are dumb people out there who will do dumb things, or selfish people who will use religion as a bludgeon to beat people into agreeing with them while justifying their own negative behaviors. People have done evil and stupid things in the name of every ideology in existence: from communism to capitalism; from Christianity to atheism; from evolution to Creationism; from liberalism to conservatism. People, in their endless creativity, can take just about any -ism and twist into something for their own personal gain. Christianity, alas, is not immune to this.

This speaks directly to many of your experiences - that you have seen people do bad things in Jesus's name does not mean that Jesus is bad. The people have a terrible misunderstanding of God's motives does not mean God's motives are bad.

To address your question of, in essence, "Why is there evil the world?" it's necessary to remember that this life is not all there is. It's just the beginning of an everlasting life. Even if a child is born in suffering, lives in suffering, and dies in suffering, that does not mean all he will ever know his suffering. No matter how bad his pain may have been on Earth, he has graduated to everlasting and incomprehensible joy in his afterlife. With that as a reward, any degree of suffering is pretty miniscule in comparison. Consider a parent raising a small child. Sometimes you let the child fail. Sometimes you let him fail hard, even if it means the child will hurt and suffer. But you do this so that the child will learn, with the hopes that this knowledge will lead to the child growing up more mature, more capable, and more independent. You let the child suffer not in spite of your love for him, but because of your love for him.

When someone dies in suffering, that person has gone on to a better life. And as importantly, the human race has hopefully learned something in the process, such that we may more adeptly prevent such suffering the future. Every person who dies of disease spurs us to more fervently seek a cure, such that others may be saved. Every person who dies in war prompts us to work harder for peace. Some die that others may live, and those who die are rewarded in eternity for their sacrifice.

I would recommend that you re-examine your faith from the point of view that Christianity should not be judged based on the actions of many bad people. Ghandi once said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." He was, unfortunately, pretty much spot on, there. You should judge Christianity based on the words of Christ, not based on the corruption of those words by selfish men eager to justify their own depravities and bigotries.

 

[Trinity]

ArtGuy- thank you for taking the time to respond. I have spent much of today (slow day at work!) reading through these forums, and must say I agree with you much of the time.

However, your response to me raises the very issues I am trying to talk about. First off, as I said, I am very well educated in the bible, taught Sunday school for many years, have read the bible front to back several times. I was raised in fundamental churches where the bible was taken literally. I am not basing my opinion of Christianity only by others, I am basing it on what I have read in the bible, and how that writing has been reinforced by people in the church.

One issue I have with the BIBLE is god's callousness to life. If you believe that every child born is the will of god, I am simply asking, how can you respect and worship a god that would treat life so inhumanely? If god is so omnipitent, do you believe the only way he can get his point across is to create a child to suffer? Saying the suffering is only temporary compared to life in heaven is simply justifying the suffering, not questioning whether it is necessary or not. If you believe, as I discuseed above, that children aren't the result of god's will, but human free will, then there really is no reason to continue, as we agree.

The reason I call myself an atheist are the reasons I stated above. I don't believe in the 'Christian' god. When I try to spend time with Christians, they don't accept me b/c of my beliefs. In fact, they say I am not saved, which is a pretty nasty thing for a Christian to say about someone who believes in god. So what does that make me? I read one thread that was PAGES long with people fighting over how to interpret one bible verse! Honestly! What is this, third grade? At what point do we all stop saying every other person except ME is going to hell, and just love and accept eachother? THAT is what is missing in religion. THAT is what is driving people away from the church. Yet even a group of people united under one religion, one message board, don't get that.

I have been on many religion and philosophy boards, and atheists say constantly they turned away from the church b/c the church required total, brainwashing compliance. There is no acceptance and tolerance. Sure, Christians say they love and accept everyone, but send a gay person into a church with a hidden camera, and I bet we'd get a much different story. Or send me telling people I don't believe most of the bible is literal, just a book of guidelines to follow, and believe me when I tell you, I won't get voted most popular congregation member.

So what exactly is Christianity? We could get 100 people on here saying I am a Christian, 100 on here saying I am definately not a Christian, and another 100 with no opinion. If it is literal belief in the bible, I am not. If it is a general belief in god, I am. Who is anyone, but me and god, to say if I am saved or not? But people use their own opinions of what a Christian is to judge others and keep them out. How is that modeling Christ? Are there good Christians? Yes, I know many. But as I said before, I believe religion is evil. It is used to divide and control. Religious people keep talking about the war against god, but honestly, religion has made its own bed on this issue.

So what does this have to do with anything? Tell me, if people who call themselves Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what a Christian is, is there even such a thing? If I created a car club, but we all got together and couldn't agree what a car was, how to drive a car, and we all told eachother, 'since you don't agree with me, you aren't in the club!' Would a club exist? Nope. Or if it did, i certainly wouldn't want to be a member. Christians, you are doing this to yourselves. I don't mean that in a negative way, just stating a fact. Most atheists feel they were pushed out, it wasn't a choice.

Wow, that's a bit of a tangent!



:

 

[ArtGuy]

One issue I have with the BIBLE is god's callousness to life. If you believe that every child born is the will of god, I am simply asking, how can you respect and worship a god that would treat life so inhumanely? If god is so omnipitent, do you believe the only way he can get his point across is to create a child to suffer? Saying the suffering is only temporary compared to life in heaven is simply justifying the suffering, not questioning whether it is necessary or not. If you believe, as I discuseed above, that children aren't the result of god's will, but human free will, then there really is no reason to continue, as we agree.

Well, it looks like we do agree on this point. I've never much bought into the idea that we're all just pawns in a solo game of chess, destined to be born, live, and die according to God's whims. A universe devoid of free will makes for a pretty pointless existence, IMO.

I have been on many religion and philosophy boards, and atheists say constantly they turned away from the church b/c the church required total, brainwashing compliance. There is no acceptance and tolerance. Sure, Christians say they love and accept everyone, but send a gay person into a church with a hidden camera, and I bet we'd get a much different story. Or send me telling people I don't believe most of the bible is literal, just a book of guidelines to follow, and believe me when I tell you, I won't get voted most popular congregation member.

I understand this sentiment completely, and it's regrettable. Far too many Christians, in my experience, forget the underlying message of love and acceptance in Jesus's teachings. Even if one is to look at it strictly as a calculating scheme of trying to win the most converts at any cost, their methods are harmful and counter-productive. It's a tragedy whenever a Christian is driven from his faith by the misdeeds of others.

So what exactly is Christianity? We could get 100 people on here saying I am a Christian, 100 on here saying I am definately not a Christian, and another 100 with no opinion. If it is literal belief in the bible, I am not. If it is a general belief in god, I am. Who is anyone, but me and god, to say if I am saved or not? But people use their own opinions of what a Christian is to judge others and keep them out. How is that modeling Christ? Are there good Christians?

I've always just thought that a Christian was anyone who believed in Christ and accepted the gift of salvation that He granted us by giving His life on the cross. Everything else is detail. It's interesting and relevant detail, sure, but quibbling over the finer points isn't going to make one a Christian or not a Christian. It may determine whether or not one lives as Christ would prefer, but that's a matter that can be hammered out between God and the individual once the latter gets to heaven.

It's a little like the argument over what constitutes "art". There are two approaches - you can either debate exhaustively over whether that indistinct orange smear on the canvas is really art or not, or you can just accept that it is by virtue of the fact that the artist claims it is, and then debate whether or not it's good art. I prefer the latter approach. If you say you're a Christians, then fine, you're most likely a Christian by the definition I gave above. Whether or not you're living in a Christ-like matter is an entirely different discussion.

Yes, I know many. But as I said before, I believe religion is evil. It is used to divide and control. Religious people keep talking about the war against god, but honestly, religion has made its own bed on this issue.

I disagree, though I understand where you're coming from. I think religion can be the source of many wondrous things, even though some use it to evil ends. I think that on balance, religion has brought more joy into this world than sorrow, and that's looking at it from a completely secular standpoint. I think even if Christianity was one big lie, it would still have a net positive influence in the world.

But even if you remain convinced that organized religion is evil, that doesn't mean that the belief in Christ is an evil thing. If you believe that Christ died for your sins, then that's what matters.

Out of curioisty, where are you from? It seems that people from the south and midwest tend to have a far more negative opinion of Christianity than people from the coasts. I hail from California, and the Christians here are pretty laid back.

 

[reznwerks]

pushed

Most atheists feel they were pushed out, it wasn't a choice.

I don't feel I was pushed out and would disagree that most atheists feel they were pushed out.Here is a link that caters to former Christians now atheists. See what they have to say. You sound angry and bitter and that is to be expected but it will go away.

http://exchristian.net/

 

[Klee shay]

Hello Trinity

it sounds to me as if you are saying you believe these children are born b/c people made the choice to have them, not b/c god 'willed' them into existance.

To be honest, there is much I don't understand about the Kingdom of Heaven yet. This is why when I doubt how I perceive God, I always try to find the truths outlined in the bible and pray for futher understanding.

I know God gave free will to mankind but he also gave them the responsibility to become parents too. God cannot dictate how any individual responds to their responsibility as parents; or even what religion they choose. Which is why you have children being born into cult churches, wars, hunger, poverty as well as into fruitful communities, peace, abundance and wealth.

Free will involves the choice between darkness and light. There is no discrimination...everyone gets to make the same choice. Until children become of an age to choose for themselves however, their innocence is preserved in Heaven. So should they die at the hands of mankind God will raise them up; because His Son died an innocent man too.

God is consistent in His nature and when He raised His Son up to everlasting life, all innocents and pure of heart became annointed by His sacrifice too. Children are the most innocent and pure of heart; which is why Jesus said we must humble ourselves like them in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

God can will life but mankind is responsible for the quality of life by the choices they make.

I believe god would be pissed at people who chose to bring innocent children into a world of suffering and pain. We were given the miracle of children, and we have slapped god in the face by treating them the way we do, IMO.

Jesus gave many stong warnings about those who harm the innocent and choose to deliberately mislead them. As for being pissed though, I believe God stopped those responses with mankind after His Son took the cross and was raised up. Jesus's sacrifice became the focal point for God after that, not mankind's sin.

On the last day of judgement mankind's sins be subject to the final vegeance of the Lord however. Good will be rewarded for good and bad will be rewarded for bad. Only the Lord can judge whose heart is truly innocent and whose is not. While a person may do bad in their lifetimes - if they were lost by the deliberate misleading of others in the name of the Father, their sins will be atoned to those who were responsible for the deception.

So while God's focal point may be on the grace of His Son for the sake of mankind's sin at the moment, there will be a day when final vegeance and justice will prevail for all. This isn't a hell and brimstone message, but one of hope for those who DO suffer in the name of the Lord.

You are basically saying that we have free will. Jesus knew this, and he chose to go through this for mankind. God does not go around muddling in people's free will, so he let Jesus do this, even tho it was painful to see it. And when his son asked god about the eternal life deal, he granted his sons dying wish.

Yes, this is the gist of what I'm saying however, there is a slight difference. Jesus' motivation wasn't to go through this for mankind's sake. He did it to show His love for His Father. He loved His Father, trusted and obeyed Him to the very end - and this is why God could not deny His request to forgive mankind in the end. A man without blemish who would die for His friend's, was a sacrifice of love far greater than all the sins of mankind put together.

If this is true, and it wasn't Jesus' destiny to die on the cross, and god didn't create him specifically for this destiny, why was he created? I mean, its easy to talk about free will, but if you are god's son, kinda hard to say no, you know?

It was Jesus' destiny to love His Father because out of Adam, Abraham, Moses, David and all of the prophets, Jesus had the most intimate knowledge of His Father's nature. If you had the most compassionate parent in the world who would grant you the world if you so asked...how could you not love them?

Yes, Jesus had the choice to turn away from His Father but when His other choice was to serve His Father's enemy - the one who could offer Him everything EXCEPT His Father's love - which would you choose?

Why is any child created? Out of love of course. :D

Take care.

 

[Klee shay]

Hi Sputnik

I have no idea whatsoever why God would allow someone to be gentically engineered in such a way as to be homosexual only for them to be beaten to death (mostly figuratively) by Christians. And the Christians will give all kinds of GODLY reasons for doing so.

God allows the choices of mankind as part of the deal with free will.

If there is a genetic correlation we haven't discovered yet, that leads a person to be homosexual, this can be explained by the choices of mankind once again.

In the beginning God created life according to it's natural order. In our attempts to understand the creation of life and how better to produce food however, we have changed the natural order.

We put estrogens in the animals we eat and their by-products, into our water supply, hybrid seeds, in our drugs, beauty products, etc, etc, the list goes on. Genetically modified foods is not the natural order God created. Neither is an abundance of female hormones from external sources. Mankind has upset the balance of nature.

Without sounding too much like a tree-hugging hippy, if there is a genetic correlation to homosexuality, God did not create it.

 

[Sothenes]

Hello everyone. I have a few questions I was hoping some of your members could answer for me. A little background about myself- was raised Christian, went to church at least once a week most of my life. Got into teen years, taught Sunday School, started asking questions. Was told it was a matter of faith. When I pushed for answers, was told questioning the bible was blasphemy, and basically to sit down, shut up, and donate money. I thought, how is this different from a cult? At least in Scientology you get to meet celebrities. Throw in a few members of the church acting in shameful, sometimes adulterous ways, and it didn't take long for me to choose atheism. I figured, if I am working so hard to spend eternity with these people, I'd rather go to hell.

Hi Trinity,

I spend a lot of time trying to answer people which means that I'm tired a lot of the time and my wife thinks that maybe I should spend more time with her. The people in your Sunday School may not have had all the answers because they were being good to their families instead of neglecting them to find all the answers. There will always be some bad people in the church because we are too inviting but God sees what they are doing and they won't get away with it past this life.

Answers:

(1) When you speak about God sacrificing His child, you have to remember that "child" is not a hermeneutically correct word. The picture of a babe in a manger is an image that comes around Christmas but Jesus was a man during His public ministry. The problem with your question is that you have preconceived notions that God chose a stupid way to save people instead of understanding that He used foolish wisdom to save people with. Your other preconceived notions is that God chose another. Jesus is another in the sense that we call Him a "Person" but that person is still Himself (fully God) which means that God took the punishment Himself and did not give the punishment to another unless you mean another "Person" in the one God. How do I respect God for Jesus dieing on the cross? I respect God because He took responsibility for the creation and those who accept Jesus may live forever. I respect God for not dealing with all of the evil in the world because we have unintentionally hurt people and if God was to deal with our wrongs then He would have sent us to Hell instead of Jesus taking the punishment from a Holy God. The question to you really is, what would you have done to the people who drove nails through the hands/wrists of God? What Jesus did was offer forgiveness to them but the problem is that if they don't turn around and if the light doesn't turn on inside of those individuals then the only thing fit for such individuals is Hell.

(2) God put us on a planet which has enough resources to feed everybody. News stories from celebrities going to Africa has shown that for the cost of a CD, you could put someone in Africa in school for a year and the average American probably has somewhere near 60 to 300 CD's or more. The problem is not God but it is your world leaders who control the borders. The problem is individuals who want the money to go to them instead of those who are hurting. I admit that I probably listen to too much music but the fact is that I can't trust people in other countries unless they come from my church and unless I know them. Our church supports many missionaries and the operation of sending them overseas is an expensive effort. The children in Africa do have a purpose but the problem is man because there are plenty of resources given to us by God on this earth but Atheists have done a lot to keep God out of the lives of people and you blame a God that decides to work through other people while turning down his servants that are the hands of God. That is called being disrespectful.

(3) As a Christian, I do not have a problem with people abstaining from sex or from people using Condoms. I would agree with birth control only in the area of marriage because only people who are married should be having sex. While that is my position, I'm not going to forbid non-Christian people from using birth control but I would not encourage them to do anything other than abstinence. The people you should be complaining to is the Catholic church and stop blaming all believers for one group that we don't agree with or call "Christian".

I will answer your serious questions as long as I think you are being straight with me, Lord willing.

 

[CatholicXian]

Regarding contraception.

Contraception is a grave evil because it distorts the conjugal act between a husband and a wife. One spouse is not the tool of pleasure for the other. Fertility is part of who we are as persons. There are natural times in a woman's cycle where she is not fertile (note: this is NOT the rhythm method) and in fact, a women is only fertile a couple days out of the month.

The problem in poorer countries is lack of education and self-control (this is a major problem in more wealthier countries). We are not animals. We do not need sex to survive (despite what your hormones may want you to think). The only 100% foolproof way to not get pregnant is to abstain from sex. If you ought not have a child, then you ought not have sex.

Sex is a beautiful expression of love between a husband and a wife-- and it is also a fruitful love-- both physically and spiritually. A child does not always have to be conceived with each act of intercourse, but each act must nonetheless be open to that great gift of life. Babies are blessings, not burdens. Sex is also the utmost intimate and uniting act that spouses can participate in. Using contraception denies the nature of intercourse and degrades it to the level of nothing more than a super pleasurable gesture like a hug or handshake. The greatest aspect of sex is its procreative nature-- it is what sets sex apart from being simply another gesture of affection or friendship. You can kiss your spouse all you want, but kissing him/her will never be able to co-create human life. etc.

 

[Trinity]

Thank you everyone for responding.

Artguy- I agree with you quite a bit. It is nice to see that, as I have been told those beliefs were 'wrong' and I wasn't truly a Christian. If the churches I went to were filled with more people like yourself, I may never have left. We will have to agree to disagree on organized religion, however. Maybe one day I'll change my mind, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. For the record, I am also from CA.

resnwerks- thank you for the link I will look at it tonight. You are correct, I should not have said most atheists, I should have said most atheists I have spoken to.


Klee- thank you again for your time. I see your point, I have heard this before, I guess there is just something about it I cannot accept. I don't know how to verbalize it now, but I will think about it and maybe we can discuss it later.

Sputnik- forgot to mention before, I agree with you about gay people. I have seen many brainscans of gay vs. straight people. There is a definate physiological difference. But even if being gay were a choice, I cannot condone nor accept anyone who would treat someone as poorly as I have seen Christians treat gay people. That has been a huge stumbling block for me.

Sothenes- the people I asked these questions of were my youth group leaders. I feel I should have been able to expect to go to them with questions. If it was too much for them to answer the questions of their class, maybe they shouldn't have taken the job. Or at least answered with an honest, 'I don't know,' rather than calling me a blasphemous sinner.

As far as the god/jesus being the same etc. I think I get what you are saying, but again, that is different from how I have been taught. Your take makes more sense, and makes it easier for me to accept.

About the kids in Africa, I totally agree we have enough resources. But I am not sure what your answer is. Are you saying that yes, every child in Africa was willed by god, every life is created by god, and if a child starves, it is not god's fault for creating that child, it is ours for allowing the child to starve since we have the resources? If so, I would again wonder about the integrity of a god who chooses to make children suffer to teach others some lesson.

And as far as birth control, we can certainly keep the conversation within the context of marriage. I did say in my first post that I know Catholics are far more guilty of this practice than Christians, but Christians do contribute. Because they don't do it as much, does not make it any better for the children born as a result.

And I have no problem being disrespectful to anyone, Christian or not, who forces a woman to quit using birth control, knowing full well her future children will suffer and starve. That is beyond disresepctful to innocent life, in my opinion. There is no justification.


Xian- obviously from reading my post you know I disagree with you 100%. How convenient to force women to stop using birth control, then blame starving children on the parents lack of education. That's all I will say to you so as not to become offensive.

 

[Sothenes]

Regarding contraception.

Contraception is a grave evil because it distorts the conjugal act between a husband and a wife. One spouse is not the tool of pleasure for the other. Fertility is part of who we are as persons. There are natural times in a woman's cycle where she is not fertile (note: this is NOT the rhythm method) and in fact, a women is only fertile a couple days out of the month.

I disagree on Biblical grounds. You say that we aren't made for each other's pleasure which I disagree. You said,"If you ought not have a child, then you ought not have sex." but there is no commandment in the Bible for not having sex inside of marriage because the bible says,'Do not continue to rob each other" and if you aren't going to love your spouse through becomming one flesh then you continue to rob one another by not having sex responsibly. Passionate kissing produces the same hormones that sex does so by your reasoning that we aren't here for the pleasure of the other person then you shouldn't kiss your spouse passionately though you say that we should kiss our spouse all we want. You say that we shouldn't use contraception because it degrades sex to level of "a super pleasurable gesture like a hug or handshake" yet if you were not to passionately kiss your wife or have sex then sex would just be a pleasurable guesture or handshake when you did have it. Yet if we aren't to kiss our wives passionately because we're not for the other person's pleasure then you bring down passionate kissing to a level of a handshake with a simple peck on the cheek.

The second thing you wrote is that women are only fertile only a couple of days out of the month but the fact is that sperm can live inside of a woman's cervix for up to five days after having sex. We have a woman at work who is very fertile and laughs because she gets pregnant every time she has sex.

"Let the husband be rendering to his wife that which is due her, and also let the wife render to her husband that which is due him. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does. Likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not continue to rob each other [by witholding yourselves from one another] except it be by mutal consent for a time in order that you may give yourselves to prayer, and that you may be united again, in order that Satan may not solicit you to sin because of your lack of self-control.- I Corinthians 7

 

[Sothenes]

Regarding contraception.

Contraception is a grave evil because it distorts the conjugal act between a husband and a wife. One spouse is not the tool of pleasure for the other.

Proverbs 5:19 uses the words 'satisfy thee at all times' which makes your statement against God's words.

 

[gingercat]

Trinity,

Christianity is a very disciplined religion, but no one forces their belief on anyone.

When we became Christian we promised God that we would follow Jesus with all our might.

I became christian only 7 years ago and I am just grateful for Jesus' teachings. We had very disfunctional, unhappy family, but Jesus' teaching changed our family drastically for the better. Now we are one big happy family!!! thank you Jesus!!! :angel: :angel: :angel:

The problem of many Christians is that they don't appreciate Jesus' teachings and as a result they are unhappy with their faith or don't know true belssings comes from God.

It is so sad.

 

[Klee shay]

Contraception is a grave evil because it distorts the conjugal act between a husband and a wife.

So long as the "love" is sustained in the relationship, then what a husband and wife do within the privacy of their relationship is sanctified. When I say privacy, this does not exclude God...this just means to the exclusion of all others. :wink:

Wouldn't you agree that love is the priority in any marriage - the foundation, so to speak?

As for sex outside marriage; in the face of weakness shouldn't we also teach others to protect themselves against disease and an unwanted pregnancy? Isn't that the responsible thing to do?

How would we like it if God said to mankind, "okay children, I want you to be good Christians - but I won't teach about repentence from sin if you should be tempted, because abstainence is better for you."

Sounds silly doesn't it, but this is how God trusted us with our own sin. He gave us the choices to make and the things to do should we be tempted. Abstainence isn't a "choice" if abstainence is all that is taught.

 

[Sothenes]

Sothenes- the people I asked these questions of were my youth group leaders. I feel I should have been able to expect to go to them with questions. If it was too much for them to answer the questions of their class, maybe they shouldn't have taken the job. Or at least answered with an honest, 'I don't know,' rather than calling me a blasphemous sinner.

As far as the god/jesus being the same etc. I think I get what you are saying, but again, that is different from how I have been taught. Your take makes more sense, and makes it easier for me to accept.

About the kids in Africa, I totally agree we have enough resources. But I am not sure what your answer is. Are you saying that yes, every child in Africa was willed by god, every life is created by god, and if a child starves, it is not god's fault for creating that child, it is ours for allowing the child to starve since we have the resources? If so, I would again wonder about the integrity of a god who chooses to make children suffer to teach others some lesson..

Paul does tell Timothy to "let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers.."- 1 Timothy 4:12 but the problem is that not all youth today can claim to be taught by the Apostle Paul. How old was Timothy compared to your 'youth leaders'? Youth groups are a funny thing. I was on another board and I left because I found out there were too many Christian youth there even though there were adults. We have a few minors on this board and I do not knowingly accept private messages from anyone who is not an adult. The problem is that on the other board the youth knew a lot of the Bible but youth don't always know how to handle stress from people and they don't always have wisdom to properly handle a Bible verse. I think it is a good opportunity to give young Christians a start but in reality you want an adult who is trained by someone who is trained. The worst case scenario is 2 Peter 3:16. I do agree with you that some of them may not have been ready to be leaders.

As far as the children in Africa being a part of God's will, I would have to say that God gives us a certain amount of free will of our own. There is God's perfect will in scripture and God's permissive will in scripture. It is unfortunate that people die but death was a choice that Adam made as head of the human race. God doesn't make children suffer to teach us a lesson but if you were never exposed to evil then you wouldn't know what was good either.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

1. If God is such a brilliant, omnipitant, loving God, why did he choose to sacrifice his own child in such a heinous way? How can any of you justify that?

In one of the apocryphal accounts of Adam & Eve after the angelic being Lucifier refuses to
acknowledge God's divinity for making a mere human in the likeness of Himself, Satan rebels
and his accusations start and the rebellion begins. Micheal aka Christ forsees the problems
man must face. He voluntarily gives his life as a substitute offering for Adam, whom he
knows will not be able to be perfect and free from the devices of Satan. We are all his
sons and daughters and He cares for all of us, despite our ignorance, innocence, inexperiences,
and disobediance. If Christ was God, He suffered the same pains we do. Life in Romans times was not a pleasure cruise. It might of been the closest thing to hell on earth in fact! Anyways,
despite all our infirmates, brought about through Adam's fall, God intends for us to live
life eternally, not in crappy ass bodies that decay. This is a testing ground, and no one knows
what may befall him in this life. No one knows how or when they will die!

2. Christians believe that everyone has a purpose, that every life was planned. What purpose to that suffering could there possibly be?

The purpose of life is to live one God has ordained for us, he wants us to return to our original stat of being in the garden. Suffering is brought about by sin and Satan. This world age is not permanent. Man will rule for some 6000 years, yet God will only reign for 1000. Its not about fairness its about our state of existance compared to Him!

3. Why do you believe Christians have the right to go into third world countries, convert people, and convince people not to use birth control, only to increase the size of an extremely poor. how can you respect a God that encourages the suffering of children?

Wait till gas goes to 10$'s a gallon, then you will understand. This is man's design not God's,
not his followers who call themselves his. Africa like other eco systems are designed to be
lived in certain ways. Guns Germs and Steel! God allowed Cain to live and his descendents, though I would prefer he was dead! God in his omnipotence wishs all men saved, which is why he waits. Why did the government or NWO blow up the twin towers killing 1000's of innocent people? Ezekial 7

 

[Imagican]

trinity,

I feel ya. Spent many of my younger years doing 'just the opposite'.

I have a 'couple' of answers for ya.

First of all, death to God is NOT such a terrible thing. He gives it, and it's His to take away. BUT, the important thing to remember is that this life as we know it is ONLY a part of existence. There is much offered that explains that we are able to be eternal, (or at least compared to the few years we have here). We allow ourselves to become so enamored by 'this life' that we often fear death as a 'bad' thing. Well, if you love the world instead of God, this makes PLENTY of sense, (and I don't mean 'you' as in 'you' personally, just a generalization).

And, the second answer. Christ suffered and died yes, BUT, NOW he sits at the 'right hand' of God. And remember, Christ offered His life for ours. He could have turned away and denied His statements and lived out His life like everyone else. He KNEW what was at stake though and was willing to suffer for our sins. So, God didn't kill His Son, He simply allowed the world to do it. And you can believe that He suffered right along with His Son. Imagine how difficult it was to hear His Son accuse Him of abandoning Him after all He had been through. God couldn't be a God of LOVE without suffering as bad as His Son did. But, look at what an amazing gift we were offered while we DIDN'T even understand it. Now THAT'S love.