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reznwerks

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Here is a list of quotes that are apparantly bogus or have no source. I have researched the first few without success and have no reaso to believe the rest have a source as well. They deal primarily with the claim this country was founded by Christians etc. Are you guilty of using them in arguements to make your case? See if you can find a hard source for these quotes.

1) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" - Patrick Henry

2) "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." - Abraham Lincoln

3) "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." - George Washington

4) "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court case)

5) "The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drown from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory [sic] to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer." - Noah Webster

6) "A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader." - Samuel Adams

7) "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

8) "There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet." - Noah Webster

9) "Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin

10) "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." - Abraham Lincoln

11) "I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens." - Thomas Jefferson
 
Jefferson Bible

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The Jefferson Bible, or The Life And Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted textually from the Gospels as it is formally titled, was an attempt by Thomas Jefferson to glean the teachings of Jesus from the Christian Gospels. Jefferson wished to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.

:oops: :oops: :oops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
 
Here is a list of quotes that are apparantly bogus or have no source. I have researched the first few without success and have no reaso to believe the rest have a source as well. They deal primarily with the claim this country was founded by Christians etc. Are you guilty of using them in arguements to make your case? See if you can find a hard source for these quotes.

1) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" - Patrick Henry

Letter to his daughter, Betsy, 20 August 1796:

Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.

Patrick Henry's Will:

This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed.


2) "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." - Abraham Lincoln

In reply to the Loyal Colored People of Baltimore upon Presentation of a Bible

Abraham Lincoln responded, "This occasion would seem fitting for a lengthy response to the address which you have just made. I would make one, if prepared; but I am not. I would promise to respond in writing, had not experience taught me that business will not allow me to do so. I can only now say, as I have often before said, it has always been a sentiment with me that all mankind should be free. So far as able, within my sphere, I have always acted as I believed to be right and just; and I have done all I could for the good of mankind generally. In letters and documents sent from this office I have expressed myself better than I now can. In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man.

All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it. To you I return my most sincere thanks for the very elegant copy of the great Book of God which you present."


3) "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." - George Washington

A prayer of George Washington as recorded in a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752:

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.â€Â
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.â€Â

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."


4) "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court case)

Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story appointed by President James Madison--served from Feb 3, 1812 -- Sept 10, 1845[U.S.Congressman 1808-1809][Harvard Law School professor 1821-1845]

“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.†[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States; and 1829 speech at Harvard]

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects [denominations] and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."
[J. Story, III, Commentaries on the Constitution [section] 1871 (1833)]


5) "The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drown from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory [sic] to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer." - Noah Webster

Noah Webster writes in a Letter to David McClure, 25 October 1836:

An attempt to conduct the affairs of a free government with wisdom and impartiality, and to preserve the just rights of all classes of citizens, without the guidance of Divine precepts, will certainly end in disappointment. God is the supreme moral Governor of the world He has made, and as He Himself governs with perfect rectitude, He requires His rational creatures to govern themselves in like manner. If men will not submit to be controlled by His laws, He will punish them by the evils resulting from their own disobedience.…

Any system of education, therefore, which limits instruction to the arts and sciences, and rejects the aids of religion in forming the characters of citizens, is essentially defective.…

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed.… No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.


6) "A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader." - Samuel Adams

Samuel Adams in his "American Independence" Speech, 1 August 1776:

Our forefathers … opened the Bible to all, and maintained the capacity of every man to judge for himself in religion. Are we sufficient for the comprehension of the sublimest spiritual truths, and unequal to material and temporal ones? We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and with a propitious eye beholds his subjects assuming that freedom of thought and dignity of self-direction which he bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun, may his kingdom come!


7) "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

The above quote is quoted as being James Madison's address to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia in 1778. Below is James Madison addressing the General Assembly of the State of Virginia and a message to Congress.

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage...Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."
-- James Madison
[In a 1785 session of the General Assembly of the State of Virginia, explaining his "Religious Freedom, A Memorial Remonstrance"]

"[The] principles of morality and religion... are the best foundation of national happiness."
-- James Madison
[In a message to Congress on February 24, 1813]


8) "There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet." - Noah Webster

Value of the Bible (unpublished manuscript), 1834:

They choose men, not because they are just men, men of religion and integrity, but solely for the sake of supporting a party. This is a fruitful source of public evils. But as surely as there is a God in heaven, who exercises a moral government over the affairs of this world, so certainly will the neglect of the divine command, in the choice of rulers, be followed by bad laws and as bad administration; by laws unjust or partial, by corruption, tyranny, impunity of crimes, waste of public money, and a thousand other evils. Men may desire and adopt a new form of government; they may amend old forms, repair breaches and punish violators of the constitution; but there is, there can be no effectual remedy, but obedience to the divine law.


9) "Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin

Ben Franklin at the Constitutional Convention, 1787:

In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor.… and have we not forgotten this powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: “that God governs in the affairs of man.†And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? …


10) "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." - Abraham Lincoln

Letter to Eliza Gurney on September 4, 1864

I am much indebted to the good christian people of the country for their constant prayers and consolations; and to no one of them, more than to yourself. The purposes of the Almighty are perfect, and must prevail, though we erring mortals may fail to accurately perceive them in advance. We hoped for a happy termination of this terrible war long before this; but God knows best, and has ruled otherwise. We shall yet acknowledge His wisdom and our own error therein. Meanwhile we must work earnestly in the best light He gives us, trusting that so working still conduces to the great ends He ordains. Surely He intends some great good to follow this mighty convulsion, which no mortal could make, and no mortal could stay.

11) "I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens." - Thomas Jefferson

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.†[Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]



.
 
I would be extremely surprised if the Franklin quote was authentic. Franklin was an outspoken Deist, and pretty much only supported organized religion as a cynically practical matter of keeping folks in line with moral fiat.

I'm not sure if his is an endorsement that most Christians should really value, assuming that quote isn't bogus. :)

Similarly, I don't much know if we should value the endorsement of Thomas Jefferson:

The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

In the end, I don't much see the relevance of whether these kinds of quotes are valid. We know as fact that a large number of the Founding Fathers were Christians, and a large number were deists. For every quote saying it's definitely a Christian nation, there's another saying it most certainly isn't. I think the most reasonable interpretation is that people back then were no more in agreement about the proper role of Christianity in government than we are today. And I don't think it much matters, unless one is hellbent on fawning for a past that never was.
 
Whether Americans want to view their country as a christian nation or not pales in comparison to what other nations think America is. It's not Islamic, it's not Hindu, it's not Buddist or any of the other common beliefs in the world. One may say, "We're not anything" but I hardly believe anyone else is apt to believe that anyway no matter how hard one fights to be nothing.

Ask an Iranian, a Syrian, an Arab, an Iragi, an Indian, a Japanese, a Chinese or even a Eurpoean what America is and I don't think they'll tell you, "America is nothing". (Well, maybe they might but not in the context of religion) :-D

In my opinion America is mostly Deist with the deist thinking he/she is christian because they wrongly believe that believing in God and some parts of the bible makes them christian. Does a deist believe in Christ? No, not as The Son of God or a messiah anyway. Speaking of Allah is ok, speaking of God in general is ok, speaking of Budda is ok but don't mention Jesus. And that's where the problem comes in. Jesus. Christ has been and always will be hated by the world. And He said so.

I can't help but wonder what may have occured if Della Reese advocated Christ in "Touched by an Angel". I seriously doubt the show would have lasted long if it was aired at all.
 
PotLuck said:
In my opinion America is mostly Deist with the deist thinking he/she is christian because they wrongly believe that believing in God and some parts of the bible makes them christian. Does a deist believe in Christ?

Well, if you define deist as non-YEC fundamentalist, then sure. But the majority of the nation believes in Christ as the son of God and savior, even if they might not adhere strictly to an interpretation of the Bible that ignores allegory and metaphor. I'd call them Christians, but I seem to be in the minority, here.
 
vic said:
"Beam me up Scotty" was never actually said in ANY Star Trek episode. :-D

"Play it again, Sam," did not appear in Casablanca.

"Elementary, my dear Watson!" was never said by Sherlock Holmes.
 
"Hay I was eating that" was never said by Nocturnal Principal X...until now :wink:
 
I find it interesting that somehow the link I provided was somehow removed which explained how the fake quotes came to be accepted as real. I didn't say that these quotes could not be found I said the quote as well as the claimed SOURCE are bogus. If the quotes are genuine as you say then it should be no problem . To rebuff your response I will point out just one example. The last item regarding the letter to Charles Thomson is posted below and as you can see IF you read it that the quote appears no where in it. I suspect the I can assume the rest of your rebuttal is in error as well unless you want to show the link. Do you really think that these quotes were not first researched as to their true source and authenticity before they were posted?

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jef ... omson.html

http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/general/Bog ... Quotes.htm

The quotes I used IF you had bothered to look at the now MISSING LINK would have explained that these quotes were from "David Barton" who is a prominant Christian activist and involved in the "Wallbuilders" and who has admitted that the above quotes are bogus.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton

http://www.religioustolerance.org/badquotes.htm
 
reznwerks,
I apologize for deleting your reference link. When I posted a response to your original post, I accidently selected edit instead of quote. Then I accidently hit submit, instead of preview, and your post was changed with the deleted link. I then proceeded to correct my mistake and had forgotten about the link that I had deleted. I have attempted to correct the authors of text in the quoted portions above, and thank you for resubmitting the link.

Now concerning your claim that the quotes that I submitted are false quotes from the selected authors:

These quotes can be substantiated through the references given. In fact, the Thomas Jefferson quote in his letter to Charles Thomson shows the importance that he gave to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and that he himself thought to be a Christian in his own understanding. The quote from your resource is:


Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson said:
"I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."

I looked up the quotes that you selected as being false quotes from the individuals that you quoted, and found that the references were for the most part missing when quoted and attributed to these authors. I posted quotes that had references and could be validated as true quotes for those that had the energy to followup and do the research.

What I have found is that the quotes that had no strong validation of reference could have well been stated by each individual as the quotes that I posted as having referenced documentation are in the same vein as the quotes that you posted.

Do not let your bias against the truth keep you under the bondage of deception.
Thanks,
Solo
 
I don't think they've quite gotten rid of the obvious fact that God left His signature on this country yet, but I give some people credit for trying really hard. Maybe when a generation or two dies out the lie can be better marketed and embraced.
That is if God allows us to continue in this present delusion that long.
 
Many of the monuments in DC have Scripture written on them.
 
Khristeeanos said:
Many of the monuments in DC have Scripture written on them.

Which ones, and when were they built? The oldest of the more famous monuments is the Washington Monument, which was finished in 1884 and, to my knowledge, doesn't have any scripture on it. If you're trying to demonstrate an adherence to Christianity by the founders, you'll need to show evidence of a monument that was built in their time, and had scripture written on it in their time.
 
Portraying attacks against Columbus as attacks against Christianity is pretty silly. I don't think it's unfair to point out that, whatever his stated intentions, he was responsible for small-scale genocide, captured thousands as slaves, and forced natives into his service through threat of mutilation. He may have been a Christian, but he was a pretty lousy one.
 
I think you get the point, this isn't about how you think columbus did or didn't behave. He wasn't a deist, atheist, or dentist. Now what did you say he was again?
He may have been a Christian
Thank you. :-D
 
ArtGuy said:
Khristeeanos said:
Many of the monuments in DC have Scripture written on them.

Which ones, and when were they built? The oldest of the more famous monuments is the Washington Monument, which was finished in 1884 and, to my knowledge, doesn't have any scripture on it. If you're trying to demonstrate an adherence to Christianity by the founders, you'll need to show evidence of a monument that was built in their time, and had scripture written on it in their time.

Have you seriously never been to DC and seen the buildings with Scripture on them?
 
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. - Jesus Christ

This story was not a part of the gospels in earlier manuscripts, although it is still a great parable to Christ's teachings of mercy.
 
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