[_ Old Earth _] Radio Dating / Science

As you just learned, there is no dinosaur tissue in evidence. No cells, either. Just a few molecule of collagen, which science has shown, have rates of degradation that can be for many millions of years.

Show us some evidence for your new hypothesis that these molecules can't last for millions of years.



So, it comes down to "I want to believe it, so it has to be true?" That's all you have?



As you learned, there is no tissue there. Even the people who found the collagen admit that there isn't.

You act as if there are only several samples with a few molecule of collagen. Do you know there are many instances where soft dino tissue has been found?

The video I presented in post 12 clearly shows you are incorrect. You can skip right to the 6:25 min mark and see the tissue you deny exist.
 
You act as if there are only several samples with a few molecule of collagen. Do you know there are many instances where soft dino tissue has been found?

Show us one of those. Checkable source in the literature. So far, no tissue, not even any cells.

The video I presented in post 12 clearly shows you are incorrect. You can skip right to the 6:25 min mark and see the tissue you deny exist.

Sorry, anyone can make a video. Show us your evidence. Hint: You Tube shows aliens, Queen Elizabeth as a reptile, and so on.
 
Show us one of those. Checkable source in the literature. So far, no tissue, not even any cells.



Sorry, anyone can make a video. Show us your evidence. Hint: You Tube shows aliens, Queen Elizabeth as a reptile, and so on.

So, your reply is...the video was made up?

Well then, perhaps this will help:
Abstract
Soft fibrillar bone tissues were obtained from a supraorbital horn of Triceratops horriduscollected at the Hell Creek Formation in Montana, USA. Soft material was present in pre and post-decalcified bone. Horn material yielded numerous small sheets of lamellar bone matrix. This matrix possessed visible microstructures consistent with lamellar bone osteocytes. Some sheets of soft tissue had multiple layers of intact tissues with osteocyte-like structures featuring filipodial-like interconnections and secondary branching. Both oblate and stellate types of osteocyte-like cells were present in sheets of soft tissues and exhibited organelle-like microstructures. SEM analysis yielded osteocyte-like cells featuring filipodial extensions of 18–20 μm in length. Filipodial extensions were delicate and showed no evidence of any permineralization or crystallization artifact and therefore were interpreted to be soft. This is the first report of sheets of soft tissues from Triceratops horn bearing layers of osteocytes, and extends the range and type of dinosaur specimens known to contain non-fossilized material in bone matrix.
Ref: science direct
Here's another example from the Smithsonian.
 
From your source:
After all, as any textbook will tell you, when an animal dies, soft tissues such as blood vessels, muscle and skin decay and disappear over time, while hard tissues like bone may gradually acquire minerals from the environment and become fossils.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/#qOP6l2R3iuoHbCW0.99

But this is untrue. Fossilized organisms from the Burgess shale, discovered early in the last century, show that soft tissue can be gradually replaced by minerals, with very detailed structure remaining. That's not news to anyone who has any knowledge of fossils:

The Burgess Shale is famous for its exquisite fossils of soft-bodied organisms. It is exceptional to find complete animals preserved, especially ones that had only soft tissues and no mineralized structures. (Typically it is only the hard parts of organisms - shell or bone - that become fossils.) When this happens (taphonomy section) palaeontologists can gain a tremendous amount of ecological and biological information about a particular time in Earth's history. The Burgess Shale is such a site, providing the best window on animal communities during the end of the Cambrian Explosion.
http://burgess-shale.rom.on.ca/en/science/burgess-shale/03-fossils.php

So this is another cautionary tale about trying to get information from a source that is not actually a journal of the subject in question. Smithsonian is a popular magazine like National Geographic (which also has occasionally dropped a clanger because they don't do peer review).

And the cited article?
...Mark H. Armitage, a microscope technician (not a professional biologist). He did some undergrad work in Biology at University of Florida, but didn’t graduate. Then he got his B.S. in Education from Jerry Falwell’s fundamentalist Liberty University, and his M.S. in Biology (parasitology) from the Institute of Creation Research, an unaccredited fundamentalist organization that has since left California and closed down its graduate program. As many others have shown, the ICR “Master’s Degree” was a sham, consisting of little more that incompetently done book reports and quote-mining from legitimate scientific literature with a creationist spin, not legitimate scientific research. I’ve seen a number of “master’s theses” from there—they are so bad they wouldn’t even pass for a freshman book report. Prior to his employment at CSUN, he was employed as a microscope technician at a variety of Christian schools. But he has no Ph.D., no formal training or peer-reviewed published research in the histology he was working on. He’s just a humble lab tech on a 2-day a week part-time gig, with no guarantee of employment from one semester to the next. His sole job is to maintain and keep track of the microscopes in a big department with hundreds of them, not to teach courses or do research.
http://www.skepticblog.org/2014/09/04/a-creationist-mole-and-a-sorry-mess/

So a microscope repairman, unable to publish his story in journal of palentology, found a journal of histochemistry that was willing to publish without peer review by geochemists or paleontologists. When other scientists were unable to reproduce his results, he was in a bit of a fix. Should he have been fired? He had no contract, and California is an at-will state.

California's Labor Code specifies that an employment relationship with no specified duration is presumed to be employment “at-will.” This means, at least in theory, that the employer or employee may terminate the employment relationship at any time, with or without cause.
https://www.google.com/search?q=california+employment+at+will&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Schweitzer herself disagrees with Armitage's assumptions about tissue. The "blood vessels" are made up of collagen, but no cells remain, much less tissue. She remarked that his article was only anatomy; Armitage himself admitted that he left out his conclusions in order to get the article published.

As you learned, biological molecules can exist for many millions of years under the right conditions. But so far, no one has been able to show cells or tissues surviving. The soft tissue that was fossilized in the Burgess shale is no longer tissue, but was replaced very slowly by minerals. The tissue in the dinosaur bone decayed and only some collagen, heme and other molecules survived millions of years, which is also not surprising, given decay rates in such environments.
 
From your source:
After all, as any textbook will tell you, when an animal dies, soft tissues such as blood vessels, muscle and skin decay and disappear over time, while hard tissues like bone may gradually acquire minerals from the environment and become fossils.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/#qOP6l2R3iuoHbCW0.99

But this is untrue. Fossilized organisms from the Burgess shale, discovered early in the last century, show that soft tissue can be gradually replaced by minerals, with very detailed structure remaining. That's not news to anyone who has any knowledge of fossils:

The Burgess Shale is famous for its exquisite fossils of soft-bodied organisms. It is exceptional to find complete animals preserved, especially ones that had only soft tissues and no mineralized structures. (Typically it is only the hard parts of organisms - shell or bone - that become fossils.) When this happens (taphonomy section) palaeontologists can gain a tremendous amount of ecological and biological information about a particular time in Earth's history. The Burgess Shale is such a site, providing the best window on animal communities during the end of the Cambrian Explosion.
http://burgess-shale.rom.on.ca/en/science/burgess-shale/03-fossils.php

So this is another cautionary tale about trying to get information from a source that is not actually a journal of the subject in question. Smithsonian is a popular magazine like National Geographic (which also has occasionally dropped a clanger because they don't do peer review).

And the cited article?
...Mark H. Armitage, a microscope technician (not a professional biologist). He did some undergrad work in Biology at University of Florida, but didn’t graduate. Then he got his B.S. in Education from Jerry Falwell’s fundamentalist Liberty University, and his M.S. in Biology (parasitology) from the Institute of Creation Research, an unaccredited fundamentalist organization that has since left California and closed down its graduate program. As many others have shown, the ICR “Master’s Degree” was a sham, consisting of little more that incompetently done book reports and quote-mining from legitimate scientific literature with a creationist spin, not legitimate scientific research. I’ve seen a number of “master’s theses” from there—they are so bad they wouldn’t even pass for a freshman book report. Prior to his employment at CSUN, he was employed as a microscope technician at a variety of Christian schools. But he has no Ph.D., no formal training or peer-reviewed published research in the histology he was working on. He’s just a humble lab tech on a 2-day a week part-time gig, with no guarantee of employment from one semester to the next. His sole job is to maintain and keep track of the microscopes in a big department with hundreds of them, not to teach courses or do research.
http://www.skepticblog.org/2014/09/04/a-creationist-mole-and-a-sorry-mess/

So a microscope repairman, unable to publish his story in journal of palentology, found a journal of histochemistry that was willing to publish without peer review by geochemists or paleontologists. When other scientists were unable to reproduce his results, he was in a bit of a fix. Should he have been fired? He had no contract, and California is an at-will state.

California's Labor Code specifies that an employment relationship with no specified duration is presumed to be employment “at-will.” This means, at least in theory, that the employer or employee may terminate the employment relationship at any time, with or without cause.
https://www.google.com/search?q=california+employment+at+will&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Schweitzer herself disagrees with Armitage's assumptions about tissue. The "blood vessels" are made up of collagen, but no cells remain, much less tissue. She remarked that his article was only anatomy; Armitage himself admitted that he left out his conclusions in order to get the article published.

As you learned, biological molecules can exist for many millions of years under the right conditions. But so far, no one has been able to show cells or tissues surviving. The soft tissue that was fossilized in the Burgess shale is no longer tissue, but was replaced very slowly by minerals. The tissue in the dinosaur bone decayed and only some collagen, heme and other molecules survived millions of years, which is also not surprising, given decay rates in such environments.

You posted a lot to say this..."As you learned, biological molecules can exist for many millions of years under the right conditions"...

No, That's where you are wrong. Biological molecules can't exist for many millions of years....especially 65+ MY's. You only assume they can...due to the way in which you date the strata they are found in. The still soft dino tissue areas against your old earth dates.
 
You posted a lot

You had a lot of misconceptions. As you see, it's not what they told you.

"As you learned, biological molecules can exist for many millions of years under the right conditions"...

No, That's where you are wrong.

Amber, for example, is made of biological molecules. The collagen found in rocks shown to be millions of years old is another example.

Biological molecules can't exist for many millions of years....especially 65+ MY's.

You assume that, because you want it to be so. But the evidence clearly shows otherwise.

The still soft dino tissue areas against your old earth dates.

As you learned, there aren't even cells, much less tissue. Just some collagen and heme, which we already know can last for many millions of years. Interestingly, the heme verified a theory that had first been worked out by Darwin's associate, Thomas Huxley. He had, on anatomical data, determined that birds had evolved from dinosaurs. When the heme was found, some of it was injected into rabbits, where it produced specific antibodies. These turned out to be most reactive to birds, and much less so to modern reptiles. Birds and dinosaurs are more alike in hemoglobin than either is alike to any other organisms.

And we know this is an indication of common descent, since it works with organisms of known descent. There is no magic bullet that will slay science. It's not one thing but countless tightly-interlocked things that cannot be undone by "we don't know about this yet."
 
As you just learned, there is no dinosaur tissue in evidence. No cells, either. Just a few molecule of collagen, which science has shown, have rates of degradation that can be for many millions of years.

Show us some evidence for your new hypothesis that these molecules can't last for millions of years.

So, it comes down to "I want to believe it, so it has to be true?" That's all you have?

As you learned, there is no tissue there. Even the people who found the collagen admit that there isn't.
True believers imagine that the Bible is a science book.
It is my understanding that the Genesis 1 account of the creation is the genealogy which was the standard literary device used in the ancient middle east to introduce a story and to separate one story from the next.
So, in my personal opinion, Gen 1:1 -2:3 is a genealogy arranged in liturgical style, of the heavens and the earth which introduces the story of God's dealings with mankind beginning at Gen 2:4.
If you can find a copy (it's out of print) get Before Abraham Was by Kikawada and Quinn. There are used ones available. I think you would find it very interesting.

iakov the fool
 
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