Bible Study Re-Imaging Repentance

[paxigoth7]

The word 'repentance', now there is a word that seems to cause issues for a lot of people. In a recent thread, 'repentance' seems to have had an ugly meaning.

But the way the word is used by pop-Christianity warrants it. "Repent or you will burn in hell" is used commonly. What do we expect people to do with the word 'repent'? For some, it must cause a knee-jerk reaction, perhaps it even scares people, "What if I don't feel sorry enough for my sins?" Even Luther defined repentance as 'doing penance' a.k.a. contrition and feeling bad about one's self.

As bizarre as this may sound, none of this is what the Biblical word 'repentance' actually means. Thus, our entire understanding of it must be jettisoned. In fact, Christianity may find, if it is truly to be progressive, that it will have to use different words to express the true meaning of 'repentance'. 'Repent' may turn out to be, just like other words like 'fundamental' and 'evangelical' and 'resurrection' and 'god' to have meanings that are so culturally-embedded that the real meaning hides in waiting. On the other hand, maybe such words can be saved through re-imaging them.

The word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word 'metanoia'. The word is formed from two other Greek words, meta and noia. Meta is a preposition which means, in this case and usage, a 'turning'. It implies that something or someone is turned from where they used to be at and now faces a different direction. Noia means 'mind'and refers to thinking. Thus, metanoia, or repentance, means a 'change of mind'.

We are asked to 'change our minds' all of the time. If we have been drinking pepsi, coke wants a 'change of mind' that leads to buying their product. Politicians want a 'change of mind', parents ask for 'changes of mind'. We are always wanting people to turn and agree with our own agenda, and our own way of seeing and thinking.

Jesus called on people to 'repent' and have a 'change of mind that leads to the forgiveness of sin'. In other words, he argued that his way of being human and living life--out of love and service to others--was the only legitimate way of being human and living life.

Biblical repentance is us changing our minds to a mindset that counters sin. Sin is not an action, it is a noun, a state of being (more specifically, sin is non-being). One may use the slogan crossing over from 'death to life' here but it must be grounded in the practical and not the abstract.

According to John, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is the only way to truly live. In this light, repentance is practical and not abstract. Repentance is grounded in social action and working in the world to make a difference -- not locking yourself away and feeling contrite because you did something bad. When we re-image repentance, it makes sense.

Now, of course, there are people who do feel guilt and sorrow and contrition over things they have done. Some who have repented will, of course, contend that such sorrow played a role in it for them. And it did, and we should not take that away from someone. For some people, true repentance brings such things as byproducts. But don't confuse the two things, they aren't the same.

 

[Guest]

:Fade-color Repent can mean to be sorry for something,or to change
ones mind about something.

 

[destiny]

Paxi, What exactly would you call sins that would need to be repented of according to the Bible?
What would be the consequences of not repenting?

 

[evanman]

Sin is not an action, it is a noun, a state of being (more specifically, sin is non-being). One may use the slogan crossing over from 'death to life' here but it must be grounded in the practical and not the abstract.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin IS an action. Jesus stated that sins are things that people commit.

Apostle John states that sin is the transgression of the Law.

We become sinners from the moment we transgress the Law!

 

[paxigoth7]

Actions are not themselves 'sinful', but some actions are acted out of compliance with our nature.

I don't think I made my point about sin carefully enough, as it was a side point, and because of that I think I caused a misunderstanding.

Sin itself is a state of being. We are 'sinners' in that we act out of our own total depravity, not in that we 'do bad things'. As I understand it, sin is a deeper rooted issue and my intent was to point that out, that we are not basically good people who sometimes do bad things. I feel as though I rushed to make my point and you may have thought that I wasn't trying to take sin seriously enough.

Sin is a part of us, who we are. And it is a part of reality. Sin means separation and estrangement from God. And it is our state of being. Part of that is that we are individually estranged. Another part of it is that existence itself and creation are estranged.

We can repent of what we do, but we can't repent of who we are.

We are not born as people who would like to live like Jesus lived. Thus, our actions are not what his actions would be. Repentance is a simple change of mind that leads to the forgiveness of sin. We repent of what we do and we agree that Jesus was right. So we try to live differently, and realise we can't and realise that the problem of sin has much more to do with our own state of being than anything else, actions or otherwise. Since we can't repent of who we are, we need to be transformed into different people. That is what I mean by being 'born again'. We realise that good works don't save us because such works can't be done out of our own goodness; nevertheless, the result of salvation is that we can do 'good works'.

 

[paxigoth7]

destiny,

1. "Sin that needs to be repented of..."

Unfortunately, much of our existence and being comes from sin. It is in our thoughts, actions and intentions. I would sum it up by saying that we need to 1. Love God and 2. Love others and that any failure in this is sin. However, people don't understand what 'love' means anymore. We fail to love God, in actuality, anytime we fail to be Christ like people. The second is often where the first is seen. Our sin leads us to be prideful, self centred, judgmental and selfish.

2. Consequences?

Death. We all die from the same disease. Selfishness causes us to not treat others the way Christ would. All forms of sexual immorality would fall under this category. Adultry, for example, is wrong not because sexuality is wrong but because of what it does to the people involved. We harm others and that harms ourselves. Being prideful and judgmental are the worst because they tend to keep people from seeing that they personally are sinful. In this story of reality, there is sin part one, and sin part two.

Sin I. That which is done to us. We are born into sin, into an imperfect world with disease, etc. We see this reflected in creation, the environment, and all over the place. This is also what another person does to us. If someone rapes someone, the person who is raped will be affected by sin for which they did not personally cause. Someone who is born retarded bears the penalty of a sinful existence -- though they did nothing that caused that particular expression of sin. We can even see this in our personalities, our thoughts, who we are.
Sin II. That which we do in response to sin. All of us do this as well. We hurt others and we hurt ourselves. When we do any of the actions that are considered 'sins' the real offence comes from inside of us. Yet any manifestation of it can spread it.

When we look at Jesus, we see the illustration of what it means to live without sin. See, Jesus may have been affected by sin, but he overcame sin. He may have had an imperfect body, gotten sick, been tempted, etc. but he did not participate in the sin game. He didn't act out of a sinful nature. So, of course, he can call us to repent. To change our minds about what is right and wrong and conform with his. And we try to do this. Is it really that hard to recognise that his true way of living is how it should be? I don't think it is. I think people have more a problem having faith that things can be that way and I think people hide from the reality that they can't be Christlike on their own.

John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth both called for a repentance that leads to the forgiveness of sin. Of course, in the entire process, we have to become 'born again' ie. transformed by the Spirit into a new being.

A person's life on earth, without Jesus, is also separation and estrangement. This is hell. We experience hell when we do not experience the heaven Jesus offers. People die because of sin, and they are either 'saved' or 'unsaved'. The consequences of being 'saved' is that heaven becomes a permanent reality; the consequences of being 'unsaved' is that hell becomes a permanent reality.

 

[evanman]

Actions are not themselves 'sinful'

So it really, stealing and murder are not sins! Wow!--so it's true then--"It ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it!"

 

[paxigoth7]

I think you are misunderstanding my posts...

Some 'acts' will always derive their activity out of sin. It may be the case that every occurence of action x promotes sin; however, it is still the sin behind the act that makes it wrong, not the act itself.

 

[evanman]

Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The very act of sodomy is an abomination to God!

Sin is conceived in the heart, however there are such things as sinful acts

Ps 15:3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[FreeGrace]

poxigoth7,

I've read your comments and liked what you've shared. I was curious, because, as you said, repentance is a touchy and confusing topic.

Now personally, I never use the word "repentance" or "repent" when sharing the gospel. It's a religious term that is usually misunderstood. If I used it when witnessing, the seeker would likely think that I was telling him he needed to turn from sin, or make a commitment to do so - that was how he got saved. IOW, he would think that by "turning over a new leaf" he would gain eternal life. Wrong.

This is not to imply that talking about sin is to be avoided when witnessing - I just don't use that word "repentance," like I don't use "redeemed" or "justification" or "sanctified." :D

Now, I've got a question to ask about "repentance" (metanoia) or "repent" (metanoeo). Are we saved by repenting?

My answer: no. We are saved by trusting in Jesus Christ. This may sound simplistic at first, but think about it... how many times did John use metanoia/metanoeo in his gospel?

Not one time.

Why is this important... I don't know, must have something to do with why John said he wrote his gospel - to make the gospel clear so that people would gain eternal life:

John 20:30, 31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

This is the only book in the Bible explictly stating it's purpose is so that people would believe and gain eternal life. John never mentions "repenting." Is there a more evangelistic book than John? How could he just skip talking about repentance completely?

Because we're not saved by repenting, but by believing.

The Spirit convicts us of our sin and need to be saved. So repentance is part of the process of being drawn to Christ. But we are saved by believing in Christ. That's what John clearly teaches, doesn't he?

Oh, another comment - metanoia doesn't always have to do with sin... we can change our mind about other things. (True, it usually does have to do with sin - but just thought I'd comment.)

Personally, I like to say that metanoia/metanoeo has to do with the mind. It starts in the mind. So if someone doesn't understand he has a sin problem... if someone doesn't understand he needs to be saved... how can he possibly trust in Christ? So personally I like to tell people that what really matters is what they think about Jesus Christ. And that enables me to keep the focus on Jesus. Because ultimately, what matters is just that - who do they believe Jesus to be? Was He a good man? Did He even really exist in history? Did He rise from the dead?

If someone truly believe that Jesus died for them - in their place, they become a new creature. They change from the inside out. But if they think they need to repent, what's going to perhaps happen? They're going to try to shine up that ole apple. They're going to try to do better - to get rid of some of the bad habits. And if they start going to church more often, perhaps they'll even fool some Christians into thinking they've been re-born spiritually.

So personally, I stay away from using "repent" when I witness. Just causes confusion IMO. If the Spirit's drawing them to the Father, one thing we know the Spirit will do - he'll convict them of their sin! 8-) So I try to shine that light on Christ, and let the Spirit do His job.

CYL,

FG

 

[evanman]

Repentance is NOT a "religious" term--it is a commandment from God!

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[evanman]

Repentance is NOT a "religious" term--it is a commandment from God!

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The Bible teaches that there are NO seekers!

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And if there can be any doubt about this, the Holy Spirit repeats this:

Ps 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[paxigoth7]

You took those passages out of context. on purpose. The Psalms clearly reflect the state of things at that time. Notice what Jesus said, as part of his message to the people of his time:

"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." - Luke 11.9-10

Apparently Jesus believed in seekers. If you are still not convinced, it is also in Matthew's gospel.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." - Matthew 7.7-8

Well, I guess that settles the 'seeker sensitive' issue...

[/b][/i]

 

[FreeGrace]

Repentance is NOT a "religious" term--it is a commandment from God!

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

evanman,

I guess I'm coming across a bit muddled. Sorry about that. By "religious" term I don't mean that it is not an important and biblical term. But so are "redeemed" and "justified." I don't know about you, but I would never think about using either one of those terms when witnessing, yet many use "repent" often when sharing the gospel, and likely confuse their hearers.

As paxigoth said, "repentance" is "a changing of the mind," and it does not mean to "turn from sin," and I agree. That is the lexical meaning. But when we use it in witnessing, what do you think the seeker will understand you to mean? That we are saved by our own efforts? Probably. Don't know about you, again, but I am certain that I do not want to communicate that idea.

We are not saved by works, or by turning from sin. We are saved by faith. When we say that it is included in faith, or that faith is not enough, then we have turned our salvation into works - not grace.

A couple of times in the NT, as in 2 Peter 3:9, metanoia ("repentance") is used as a synonym for faith. It's used a couple of times in Luke and Acts the same way. But in general, that's not how it's used. It's usually used in regard to sin. And in this regard, repentance is used by the Spirit to bring someone to the point at which they see their need for a Savior.

John 16:8ff is the closest that John comes to even hinting at repentance, and no other book in the NT speaks of how to gain eternal life like John. So obviously, if repentance was a requirement for salvation - if we were saved by "repenting" then John's gospel would speak of it.

Now, we could head down the "can any seek Christ" path, but I imagine that would fit in another thread better than this one. But I will say that if you look earlier in Acts 17 - before vs. 30 - you'll see that man can respond to the Spirit as He convicts us of sin. That's the whole point that Paul is making in that paragraph. (See Acts 17:26, 27.) And if we read vs. 30 as "and these times of ignorance (in which - see earlier - men considered God to be made out of gold...) God has overlooked, but now He commands everyone to 'change their mind' about the Godhead." Jesus is God's Son. He came to live and walk on this earth. God commands everyone to change their mind on how they see Jesus.

And even if you viewed the metavoia there as changing your mind regarding sin - which isn't in the context - we cannot do so without God changing us first. We must be regenerated before we would be able to do so - and I assume you agree with that, since you appear to be reformed, if I'm reading you correctly.

Anyway, my point is that I didn't mean to imply that repentance is not part of the gospel message - the conviction of sins - but we are saved by faith, and faith alone. And I stay away from ALL religious-sounding terms - that people do not understand - when witnessing. I don't even use "born-again" very often because of its negative imageto many people. Besides, John 3 doesn't speak of being "born again" IMO, but of being "born from above" - of spiritual birth.

BTW, I do agree that we could not come to Christ if the Spirit did not draw us, FYI, but He does draw us - through the gospel. The context of John 6:44 makes that clear, IMO. See 6:45 - "everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." (How do people "hear and learn?" Through the Word - Romans 10:17 - through the gospel.) Unless God was at work, drawing us to Him, we would not, could not, come to Him, agreed. But He IS doing just that, and PTL that He is!

Thanks evanman. Sorry if I mislead you in how I expressed this yesterday regarding repentance. But I do agree with poxigoth that we should all take a closer look at "repentance" and how it is used in the Bible. Many wrong concepts about how God works in our life and how we are saved come as a result of misusing metanoia, IMO.

poxigoth7,

Gotta say - I keep finding myself agreeing with your comments. Nice idea for a thread here.

FG

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, this seemed to be an interesting forum. But it appears that either no one wants to talk to me, or this is a very inactive forum.

Bye.

FG

 

[evanman]

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

We are to repent. Repent of our unbelief, repent of sin and wickedness.

Our actions will be judged, not only the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If to contemplate an action is just the same as doing the action, then we might as well act on everything we think!

I believe that it is this mistaken idea that the Lord meant when He said--

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The verses you quote do not settle the "Seeker sensitive issue" as you put it. Most people are not seeking for God. Most people are seeking for a means to fill the hunger they feel, however this is not a hunger for God. It is this that, I believe, the Apostle John had in mind when he stated that the root of all the evil in the world stems from man's seeking to fill the lusts of his eyes, the lusts of his flesh and fill him with the pride of life!

I believe that many people have lost faith in the power of the message of the Gospel. Many are uncomfortable with the message--they don't like speaking out against sin, and preaching that we will all be judged for our lives by Jesus Christ.

This is the messager that the Apostles preached to both the Jews AND the Greeks. To the Jews it was (and still is) a stumbling block, to the Greeks it was (and still is) foolishness!

Both the psalms that I quoted from are God's eternal word to all of us, they apply just as much for today as they did for the day when they were first penned. To use your logic, we would have to state this about ALL of the Bible--it was just for back then!

 

[FreeGrace]

Evanman,

Not sure who you're addressing. FYI, I agree completely that in the gospel that we talk about the sinfulness of man and need for a Savior. Actually, I said that.

But what do you think of what paxigoth said regarding the meaning of repentance? I don't think you addressed that. Just curious, because you seem to be embracing a different definition - one that sees repentance as "turning from sin." (I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth.)

FG

 

[destiny]

In John 3 we read about a man named Nicodemus: "There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, 'Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.' Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

Now only Jesus can bring about this heart change, but it must take place all the same. If it doesn't ......."he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

[FreeGrace]

In John 3 we read about a man named Nicodemus: "There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, 'Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.' Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

Now only Jesus can bring about this heart change, but it must take place all the same. If it doesn't ......."he cannot see the kingdom of God."

destiny,

Amen! Repentance is a matter of the heart... the mind.

Thx,

FG

 

[Guest]

Well, this seemed to be an interesting forum. But it appears that either no one wants to talk to me, or this is a very inactive forum.

Bye.

FG

:B-fly: I hope you won't leave. I'll talk to you,o.k?