Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

[Tomlane]

First of all water baptism is a Jewish, ceremonial baptism of repentance.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matt 3:11 (KJV)

Christ was offering Israel Himself as their king and any Jew who believed John’s message to publicly show their repentance for their sins and that turn away from them believed John, that their promised Messiah was coming. In other words John was promoting Christ’s coming to Israel and that had not a thing to do with salvation in the lest.

And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Matt 11:7-10 (KJV)

Christ’s baptism is the one we all need not John’s water[/u].

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghostt, and with fire:
Matt 3:11 (KJV)
John realized his baptism was ceremonial and he wanted Christ’s spiritual baptism and Christ told him to put up with it for now so Christ could fulfill the law. This was Christ’s last act of keeping the law so John had to put up with it.

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now[/b]: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matt 3:13-15 (KJV)

There is folks in black and white you can read it for yourself.

Here is some reasons why water only makes you a wet Gentile {unless you’re Jewish of course}.

God set aside His dealings with Israel as a nation with physical blessings, Mosaic Law, Ordinances.

Ordinances to list just a few would be, Circumcision, Passover feast, Sabbath keeping, Tithing, and Water Baptism.

These next verses prove it.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:14-15 (KJV)
 
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:12 (KJV)

To be buried in baptism and risen with Him through faith and being of the operation of God would have to be spiritual baptism, not water as some advocate.

Also since John’s water was Jewish, and God is not dealing with Israel now, water baptism would be a mote point as that is non existent at this time. Water will be not be done again until the time of the Gentile is finished.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:25 (KJV)


Romans Chap 11 tells of the natural Olive branch {Israel} and the wild Olive branch {Gentiles} being grafted in. So that again leaves out any Jewish ordinances. Makes for a good study explaining how the Gentile is being directly part of God’s program now by nailing the law and its ordinances to the cross and making Jew and Gentile ad new creation. A new creation that is not subject to the old {ordinances even believing Jews} because we worship God now in spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. {Its take being in the flesh to be water baptized}
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:1-9 (KJV)

For we are the circumcision, [b]which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phil 3:3 (KJV)

We have to have confidence in our flesh to use it for water baptism or any of the ordinances.

Tomlane

 

[stovebolts]

I find it odd that you quote Romans 11 in light of Romans 6 where Paul is obviously writing about water baptism...as Paul often does...

That being said, in regard to the olive tree, did you know that it took a very long time to culture an olive tree? Did you also know that olive trees were tough as nails. You could chop them down and burn them and they still wouldn't die.

But here's my point. It was common practice in the day that when one found a wild olive tree (which they never produced as much fruit as a cultured olive tree), but if you were to find a wild olive tree with an exceptional trunk and root system, you would graft the cultured olive tree to those roots. Never, never would you graft wild olive branches to the roots of a cultured olive tree simply because the grafted branches, though well supplied by the root, would never produce the fruit that the original branches were capable of. ;)

What Paul is saying, is that we (gentiles) are being fed by the roots (Jewish), and that we ought not think we're any better than the Jews ;) For as Paul has already stated in chapter 3, we are all under sin.

Which brings me to Jesus, who btw was a Jew. His inauguration started at baptism.... If we are followers of Christ, why wouldn't' we follow him into the water? (pondering Naaman, 2 Kings 5)

 

[francisdesales]

First of all water baptism is a Jewish, ceremonial baptism of repentance.

That's like saying all hamburgers at McDonalds are Big Mac's. ... More nonsense.

Can you answer me a simple question?

Is Jesus' baptisms, as commanded to undertake by His Apostles at the end of His earthly ministry, superior to John's baptisms?

If Jesus' baptisms through the Church are not superior, than they are ordinances just the same as John's. Can you cite me Scriptures for that concept?

Regards

 

[Tomlane]

Stovebolts, you stated: "I find it odd that you quote Romans 11 in light of Romans 6 where Paul is obviously writing about water baptism...as Paul often does..."

I also find it odd that you assume that when you read the word baptism, you suddenly get water on the brain. lol

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:11-14 (KJV)

Stovebolts there is no way getting dunked, sprinkled or heaved into a river with some mumbo jumbo words is going to do all the above for you. It clearly says its done by God alone. You can't mix grace and works up to get Justification or any of the other that is listed above. Repent is one thing and having you to be circumcised without hands which by the way is God talking about circumcision of the heart that gives us the ability to be dead to sin and all of that is not done by getting wet my friend.

Also you are ignoring the fact that all physical ordinances were abolished and both Jew and Gentile are now a new creation in Christ and not like creatures who got wet in John's time at all.

The law had not been nailed to the cross and the ordinances been abolished until the cross and no one knew about until Paul and Peter had a meeting with some Jewish leaders in Acts 15. Please read the whole chapter to fully understand it please. I'm going to give you the bottom line of that meeting and make quick comment on it.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:19-20 (KJV)

I wish you could see since water baptism or any of the other ordinances that denominations burden people down is not listed here and since it says the Gentiles are not to be troubled who have turned to God.
Had the lie of doing ordinances such as water baptism along with the others were in affect it would have been stated her or anywhere else in Paul's writings and it is not unless you see water all the time.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:14-15 (KJV)

the middle wall that has been broken down is the law, no law, no ordinances means no water baptism.

That is why Ephs. 4:5 says ONE BAPTISM[/size]. water and spirit baptism make two baptisms when I went to school.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I don't know how I can make it any plainer than that Stovebolts

Tomlane

 

[Paidion]

When was Paul's sins washed away? When Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus?
Nope. They were washed away when Paul was baptized. This is how Ananias instructed Paul:

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ Acts 22:16

True there is only one baptism. When one is truly baptized, he is immersed in water. Outwardly he goes down into the water and emerges from the water. This symbolizes what is taking place inwardly. He dies to the self-life and that old life is buried. He emerges in the new life which he has received through Jesus Christ.

 

[duval]

Right on Paidion. Good!

 

[Tomlane]

Just for the record fellows, water baptism comes under works only and saves no one. It has to be a spiritual baptism done by God.

So tell me how can a baptism of repentance save you, doesn't even make sense.

Tomlane

 

[dan p]

Hi Tomlane , If I am reading right you believe in ONE BAPTISM than you did a good post. What most don't understand about water baptism , is the word baptism , angel , apostle , Israel , pentecost , prophet , Sabbath , Satan , baptize , prophesy , evangelist and many more Greek words are TRANSLITERATED and are NOT a word for word translation , because there is NOT and English equivalent and that brings on a faultly interperation .

I have to agree that Rom 6 : 1-8 IS NOT tALKING ABOUT WATER , unless water MAKES you walk the Christian life and will have more to slay later . dan p

 

[Tomlane]

Hi Dan, I am interested int what the more later will be, looking forward to reading it.

Tomlane

 

[francisdesales]

Just for the record fellows, water baptism comes under works only and saves no one. It has to be a spiritual baptism done by God.

So tell me how can a baptism of repentance save you, doesn't even make sense.

Tomlane

Water baptism is a work of God because God's Spirit acts through the visible sign of water. Consider Namaan the leper from 2 Kings 5, who the Church sees as one of the many signs of the Baptism to come and now here with the Christ.

Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall be restored, and thou shalt be clean. But Naaman went away angry and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD, his God, and strike his hand over the place and remove the leprosy. [Are] not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? May I not wash in them and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. Then his servants came near and spoke unto him, and said, My father, [if] the prophet had bid thee [do some] great thing, would thou not have done [it]? How much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash and be clean? Then went he down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came and stood before him, and he said, Behold, now I know that [there is] no God in all the earth, but in Israel. 2 Kings 5:10-15

The similarities are there, unmistakeably. The water of itself is of no accord. "Are not the Abana and Pharpar better than the waters of Israel?" That is what the person says who focuses on the visible, like yourself. And is not an Apostle of Christ's word more valued than Elisha - that we should listen and be baptized as prescribed? Does not Peter say we must repent and be baptized? And finally, doesn't Namaan know the Lord - just as those who are baptized know the Lord, are illuminated?

You must go beyond the physical to experience our Lord and Savior in the laver of regeneration. It is only through Baptism are we united with His Death and Resurrection. Denying that the Spirit comes through visible water baptism denies what the first Christians did and understood as taught by the Apostles. You are teaching another gospel.

Regards

 

[Tomlane]

Wow Francis, you area million miles off on that one. Elisha, told the leper to go wash himself 7 times to be clean of leprosy. There is a world of difference from having your sins washed clean in the blood of the lord and having one's leprosy taken away.

Also way back then the church that is Christ's body was not in effect yet and that came After John's water that this thread is about.

Satan loved people like you to think water, and baptism always means physical immersion and it doesn't always mean water after the day of Pentecost. Anytime baptism is referred to in of saving the soul is always spiritual baptism, never water.

Also are you like a Jew under bondage to the law still and want to be judged by God and by the law, then have at it. It sure seems like it and you will loose if you do as no one can keep it accept God himself and He did that for all of us. His keeping it for you is a free gift Francis and it is all spiritual and it comes from in trusting in Christ and not in what you can do.

Tomlane

 

[stovebolts]

Goodness Tom, when I read what your writing, and yes, I do see and understand your point, but I see so many misunderstandings that you hold, that I just don't know where to begin.

Perhaps I'll begin by stating that I also recognize my limitations on scripture, and although we view and interpret particular passages with a different lens, perhaps the best thing for both of us to do is pray that God will open our eyes, and we will better understand His will for us both.

Stovebolts there is no way getting dunked, sprinkled or heaved into a river with some mumbo jumbo words is going to do all the above for you. It clearly says its done by God alone.

Tom, I agree that simply getting dunked, sprinkled or heaved into a river with how you put it, "mumbo jumbo" words could do any of what's Paul is writing about in Col. 2, or Romans 6. However, how you have described Baptism, isn't how Paul, nor the Church view Baptism. So, you can view baptism the way your viewing it, or you can take Paul's lead, and search out how he views it.

You can't mix grace and works up to get Justification or any of the other that is listed above. Repent is one thing and having you to be circumcised without hands which by the way is God talking about circumcision of the heart that gives us the ability to be dead to sin and all of that is not done by getting wet my friend.

The Bible is clear that we are Justified by faith through grace by the redemption that is in King Jesus (Romans 3). I know very few people, who believe we are justified through Baptism. So, before you misunderstand me, know that we are justified, that is, we are declared righteous to God through faith, and this is possible by God's great mercy and grace, through the obedience and suffering of his son Jesus.

This brings me to Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.

Contrast this with Colossians 2 as they follow the same structure. More on this later if need be.

Grace through faith. Through = dia. Dia in the greek denoted an instrument within this context. Thus, faith is the instrument that YHWH’s grace is poured out upon his children.

In baptism, we are told that our sins are forgiven. Only God holds that capability which is shown to us through his grace and mercy. Same thing goes for the granting of the Holy Spirit. Thus, baptism is not a work of man, it is a work of God as seen in Noah’s day with the flood and in the days of Moses when they crossed the Red Sea.

Truly, God has the means to transform our lives. Too many people separate the spiritual from the physical and I think that’s a big mistake as God wants us to enjoy our lives here on earth. If the physical wasn’t important, why would he send His Son? Lv 23 and Is 58 are burned into my memory. Is 58 is what is required of us as in Lv 23 where the owner of the field is told to leave the corners of his fields for the poor. I believe that both are the means which YHWH uses to provide for the weak and the oppressed. Thus again, it is through our faith, that grace and blessings are poured out on those around us. Christianity isn’t about a single relationship with Christ, it’s about the community of Christ being the light for all nations that God’s grace can work through us to pour blessings upon those who don’t know Him yet.

Again, we are told that through baptism, our sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to us. (Acts 2:38) These are gifts by God’s grace through our faith. The way I see it, Baptism is not a work of man, but rather God’s saving grace being poured out upon man.

Also you are ignoring the fact that all physical ordinances were abolished and both Jew and Gentile are now a new creation in Christ and not like creatures who got wet in John's time at all.

I think your misunderstanding why the Jews were called into existance. I think your also forgetting what Jesus himself told his disciples. I hope you arn't offended by the "mumbo jumbo".

Matthew 28:19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

All nations.. imagine that ;)

 

[stovebolts]

I wish you could see since water baptism or any of the other ordinances that denominations burden people down is not listed here and since it says the Gentiles are not to be troubled who have turned to God.

Baptism is not a burden. If taught properly, it is a response to the saving Gospel of Christ.

Let me ask you, (and I do expect a response)
Is turning to Christ a burden?
Was it a burden when Christ went into the Baptismal pool with John to be recognized among the transgressors?
Is it a burden to be a follower of Christ?
Is it a burden, as a follower of Christ to go where Jesus has gone?
Is it a burden to identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus?

The questions can go on and on and on, but I believe that these are a good start. When one enters the baptismal pool, it is not a burden.

Naamen expected something spectacular, something 'spiritual', and he even got mad cause, 'it's just a river'... I think there's a lot we can learn from 1 Kings 5.

water and spirit baptism make two baptisms when I went to school.

Your looking at scripture through a 21 century lens. The Bible isn't raw data to be calculated and intellectualized as some mathematical equation. We have been taught to view facts, and we can use 911 as an example. You see, it's possible to have all the facts on 911, such as two planes (what kind of planes, how many people on each plane, who made the plane, when was the plane last serviced) crashed into the world towers (how tall were the towers, what were they made of, who build them) and both came down because of X Y and Z. A few brave firemen lost their lives X Y and Z, many died, some jumped out windows, X Y Z... you get the point. We can have all the facts, and never understand what truly happened because there is so much more going on than simple facts and details...

There is one Baptism, and one alone. You can't separate the physical from the Spiritual because they are one, as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. (last time I went to school that made three ;) )

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is taken out of context... or, you seem to view Baptism as part of the Mosaic law :gah

 

[francisdesales]

Wow Francis, you area million miles off on that one. Elisha, told the leper to go wash himself 7 times to be clean of leprosy. There is a world of difference from having your sins washed clean in the blood of the lord and having one's leprosy taken away.

You appear to be unaware of the use of analogy within Scriptures, used by the authors of the Bible themselves, such as Peter and Paul. They use OT figures and show how they point to the reality that Christ has brought into existence. Thus, the first Christians pored over the OT and found numerous figures for what Christ did or instituted.

For example:

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:18-21

I will again explain the Scriptures for you as clearly as possible. First, note Peter is using analogy from the OT to further explain what God has and is doing. The flood prefigured baptism. The 8 were saved THROUGH WATER. THIS PREFIGURED BAPTISM. Again, this is refering to baptism by water - and the Spirit is involved, as the next part says: It is not a removal of dirt from the body ONLY...! In other words, baptism is by water AND the Spirit, just what Christ said was necessary to enter the Kingdom in John 3:5

How much clearer can it be? Peter is talking about baptism by water and the Spirit. He describes that it is not meant to be a removal of dirt alone - which clearly means that water is used, but it is only a sign to the believer that the Spirit has COME! The flood prefigured this baptism. And the flood, of course, wiped away sin from the world, as every evil person was killed by the flood.

Baptism is elsewhere referred to as a washing, for example: 1 Cor 6:11; Eph 5:26; Titus 3:5.

Thus, the Church sees the healing of leprosy (disease is often connected to sin in the spiritual realm) of Namaan as a prefigurement of what Christ would do by Baptism in water and the Spirit. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, it washes us clean spiritually, just as the flood cleansed the world.

Also way back then the church that is Christ's body was not in effect yet and that came After John's water that this thread is about.

The entire Scriptures are about Christ! Aren't you aware of that?

Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer 8 these things and enter into his glory? Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures. Luke 24:26-27

Satan loved people like you to think water, and baptism always means physical immersion and it doesn't always mean water after the day of Pentecost. Anytime baptism is referred to in of saving the soul is always spiritual baptism, never water.

You sure talk a lot of smack. I see you haven't read the Acts of the Apostles, either...

Then Philip opened his mouth and began at the same scripture and preached unto him the gospel of Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what hinders me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou dost believe with all thine heart, thou may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they went both down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, [so] that the eunuch saw him no more, and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 9:35-39

Then Peter answered, Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 10:47-48

Again, you do not have a clue on what the Bible actually says, do you?

Being a Christian is more than memorizing a few dozen verses and being taken in by a charlatan. It appears you have been bamboozled by false teachings. Come quickly out of that false community. It is leading you to destruction.

Also are you like a Jew under bondage to the law still and want to be judged by God and by the law, then have at it.

Again, you do not show any reasonable knowledge of what the Scriptures actually say. NOWHERE do we find in the Old Testament that baptism is part of the Jewish Law! :gah

Where in the Torah do we find the command to baptize? How many people did Moses baptize, according to Scriptures? Can you find me ONE verse that connects the Old law to baptism, even the baptism of John???

More rhetoric, I see, and very light on the Scriptures...

I urge you to reconsider what you have been taught is NOT the true Gospel taught by our Lord to the Apostles. You follow false teachings.

BTW, you still have not answered my one question to you:

Is the baptisms that Jesus commanded the Church to conduct the same as John's?

Regards

 

[Tomlane]

Francis, you take so much of the old Testament and with what belongs to Israel and combine it with what doesn't belongs to the church, I don't have enough lifetimes to debate or explain it to you and if I did I don't know if it would help.

Like I told you before Francis I'm not here to debate with you as that is not profitable and you can call it whatever you like. Your thoughts of me don't disturb me in the lest.

I'm going to give you a scripture that I think fits this situation with us perfectly if you don't mind my honesty.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Romans 1:29 (KJV)

All the above things in verse 29 are fruits of the flesh. I am not and I repeat I'm not accusing you of any of them. Please notice one of the sins listed above is about debating.

I see no profit in debating with you and I believe we would be debating and causing sin from it. And you can tell me I'm making accuses cause if you like and that I'm ignorant of the word any of the other inflaming remarks you care to make. I just hope one day the Lord will show you how to rightly divide the word. I'm trying to be as gentle with you as I know how Francis and I have to tell you I just don't have the liberty to debate with you.

Also Francis if we kept this up of what we are doing, I know sooner or later I would say some hurtful things to you. I just know my weaknesses and you don't need that and I don't either but there is definitely no value in us sparing {debating}.

Bye Francis

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, you take so much of the old Testament and with what belongs to Israel and combine it with what doesn't belongs to the church, I don't have enough lifetimes to debate or explain it to you and if I did I don't know if it would help.

Pot, meet kettle. You mean like your large bolded print about baptism being of the old law???

You still don't get it, do you. Baptism is NOT part of the OLD LAW!

Like I told you before Francis I'm not here to debate with you as that is not profitable and you can call it whatever you like. Your thoughts of me don't disturb me in the lest.

Of course you are not here to debate! That would require you to actually think about your position.

You are here to preach to the unwashed masses your false gospel. And when I bring up Scriptures that you didn't even know existed, (because you haven't obviouslyl read quite a bit of it) you turn back on "I'm not here to debate..."dribble.

Sure, that's why you post in an Apologetic Forum. So you don't have to debate!!!

How generous of you... :biglaugh

Are you sure you know what "APOLOGETICS" mean?

It is not my thoughts of YOU that you should be concerned about, but rather, how your preachings and meanderings do not mesh with God's most Holy Word. The fast track to destruction. What worries me is that OTHER people might actually have their ears tickled by your fanciful words - so I come here to refute them with God's Word.

I'm going to give you a scripture that I think fits this situation with us perfectly if you don't mind my honesty.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

As usual, you take a verse and use it out of context...

Would that place Jesus HIMSELF into that category, since He also debated with the Pharisees???

I am not debating for the sake of debating, which is what Paul is refering to. I am not debating to CAUSE schism, but to prevent it. I am here to preach the ONE faith passed down from the Apostles, one faith and one baptism. Not your "non-denominational" newly-invented scheme that pretends to follow the Lord but refuses to follow His Body, the Church. Christ associates Himself intimately with His Bride, the Church. Reject His Church and you reject Him (e.g. Luke 10:16)

Also Francis if we kept this up of what we are doing, I know sooner or later I would say some hurtful things to you. I just know my weaknesses and you don't need that and I don't either but there is definitely no value in us sparing {debating}.

I can understand that - but that is because you attach too much of your person to your arguments. If someone attacks your arguments, you take it personally. That is causing you to be tempted to say hurtful things, rather than addressing my refutations with counter-arguments. I have not seen ONE decent counter-argument yet that addresses what I say.

Bye Francis

Are you leaving? Because if you post in the Apologetic Forum your false gospel, I will continue to correct you in public.

Regards

 

[turnorburn]

Hi Francis good post just one question you quoted...

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

This scripture pertains to a believer why then did you associate it with the church?

 

[Arj]

I became born again and was washed with the spirit,but id like to be baptised in water.as symbolic i suppose of my faith

 

[Tomlane]

I became born again and was washed with the spirit,but id like to be baptised in water.as symbolic i suppose of my faith

Arj, perhaps it would benifit you more to want what God wants for you, rather then what you want.

I have never never read in scripture where God was our walk to be symbolic, have you?

To have a symbolic testimony, you would have to use your flesh or better yet be walking in your flesh and using your carnal mind.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:5-8 (KJV)

Also does not God not want a symbolic walk he has also said that which is found in His word is sin.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14:23 (KJV)

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17 (KJV)

Since you claim to be born again, I hope you will reconsider your thoughts of a symbolic walk.

Tomlane

 

[Tomlane]

Francis, the only way I can reply to your carnal charges is for us to go to a one on one because we can't debate the Catholic faith on here. My replies for you are far too confining here for me to really give you a proper and Godly reply.

Also if you decide to join me there our topic should be about salvation only for if we can't agree on that then we certainly won't agree anything else and I really don't have the time for foolish debating.

So are you willing to go one on one my friend?

Tomlane