Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

[Imagican]

Tomlane,

Has it ever occurred to you that your self-interpretations are just that. Just becaused you discovered the bible one day does not mean that your own conclusions of it are authoritive in any way.

A, the Bible speaks for ITSELF. That YOU have chosen to follow those that would tell you that God doesn't LOVE you ENOUGH to allow YOU to interpret what He has offered by NO MEANS limits others to this SAME belief.

Francisdesales has eaten your lunch constantly in your various threads as you spread the gospel of tomlane and I suspect many non-Catholics have also been cringing as you hurl recently formed opinions like water balloons against the two-thousand plus year old wall of Christian history.

Ah, just a matter of time eh, till yall start gangin' up on one that fails to follow your teachings.........And here we go again. Funny how quickly you can ally yourselves with Protestants when their theology agrees with yours but the moment it doesn't we're all a bunch of heretics or totally lost in 'self interpretation'.

I think most were stunned as soon as they read one of your post from the New Members thread when you told one of the finest and learned members on this forum and I quote:

"I do believe you are a brother in Christ but just haven't learned yet the proper way to rightly divide God's word properly. I think perhaps I might make a thread on that."

What a way to introduce yourself :o

The truth can certainly SEEM harsh at times when it doesn't agree with your 'beliefs'.

Time for some self reflection perhaps? Or at least some history lessons.

What is you background if you care to say? I mean how long have you been excited about the Word of God and was there an event in your life that made you seek God the way you obviously have been doing. You don't have to answer that obviously, I was only curious.

Peace

 

[Imagican]

As Free requested I will play nice.
Tomlane, I'm not trying to attack you at all. I am only saying that you can quote scripture all day long but remember this; your own personal interpretations of the verses you read may not actually be valid from a Christian historical standpoint. Please don't perceive what I am saying as a judgement on your salvation or standing with God. It's just that you blew into this forum with the attitude that you are an expert on Christianity without being an expert on the history of the faith. (Isn't what you mean: "your faith"?)
None of us are experts and we are all sinners to some degree or another. (Doesn't this totally negate what the Bible itself offers? For what is revealed BY God WOULD make one to which it is revealed an 'expert' in the words of this world? And that we are ALL sinners in NOW WAY indicates that we are UNABLE to receive guidance and understanding from above.) If you want to broaden your knowledge of Christianity you will need to go outside the bible. That's the only point I was making.

Please explain HOW and WHY we MUST go 'outside' of the Word in order to develope a relationship with God through His Son. That is REAL confusing to me. A, what IS the 'purpose' of The Word?

Peace

P.S.
I am still interested in your testimony of your journey.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

You would contend, (due to what you havre been TAUGHT to believe), that they ARE the SAME. Problem is, the Bible offers the distinction in NUMEROUS places. Do you truly understand WHAT; 'a better way' MEANS?

You are confused. You think water baptism ONLY refers to John's baptism. Clearly, the Apostles ALSO baptized with water... AND THE SPIRIT. Where do you find in the Scriptures that water was "withheld" once they received the Spirit?

I have used Scriptures over and over. If you cannot see that, the problem is yours. I have cited Scriptures on numerous occasions. John 3:5 tells us that to be born again, from above, one must be born of water AND the Spirit. The Apostles were commanded to BAPTIZE. How? With water. And God baptizes with the Spirit at the same time the Church baptizes with water. Read the Acts of the Apostles, chapters 9-10 and you'll find several examples. Sprinkled throughout the NT, you'll find there is a distinction between John's water-only baptism and the Apostles' water and the Spirit baptism.

Why are you being obtuse? We aren't discussing water-only baptism of John. Using water in baptism does not necessarily indicate a water-only baptism in the mode of John's.

Or do you think Jesus and John's baptism are equal, both being ordinances? Did the baptism that Jesus commanded His followers to conduct with Matthew 28:19 a mere ordinance?

I will stop here and await your answer. A quick perusal of the rest of your post is more of the same Imagican rhetoric on how you are right and everyone else is wrong, the same old "me vs the religions of man" baloney, as if we are to believe God speaks to you directly and blinds everyone else...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

A-Christian, you should consider your own position before you go judging another. I give more scripture for what I believe and the hope within me than most of you.

LOL! That's funny. Maybe you should give up apologizing for your denomination and take up being a comedian...

All you do is take Scriptures out of context and hurl them as axes at your opponent's heads. THAT is how you use Scriptures??? They do absolutely NOTHING to back up your point of view. Your arguments are incoherent and are not supported by Scriptures. When called to task, you promptly leave and go elsewhere! I have offered to accept your challenge to debate you on ANY subject, but that was just talk, I guess. These are the ways of a false teacher, without doubt. By their fruits they are known (by the way, in case you didn't know, that is a Scripture allusion).

I urge you to look at HOW you use the Scriptures, Tomlane. WHERE do you actually try to prove a point, rather then twisting Scriptures to tell us how evil someone is or of the flesh or whatever the new insult of the day is? Using Scriptures to insult people is clearly not what God has in mind when He gave the Church the Bible.

Don't take my word for it, listen to people here. It is clear from some of your comments that you have not even READ the New Testament, such as your mentioning that the Bible NOWHERE speaks of people being baptized as Christians with water, and then I promptly give you TWO examples from the same BOOK!!! Of course, no comment from you whatsoever, since you are in denial that your point of view is plainly wrong. What is sad is that this is not an isolated incident...

Also take a look at God's word yourself and perhaps you may find yourself in error. I thought the idea of this place is to discuss scripture not attack a person but their doctrine with doctrine not with your personal opinions.

Maybe you should take heed of that idea and start supporting from Scriptures where Christian water baptism is an invention of the Catholic Church? You can only ignore the Scriptures (accept to twist it to hurl insults) so long before your complaining falls on deaf ears.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is another great example of a misuse of Scriptures. Apparently, it is the only way you know how to use the Bible... Thanks for making my point again...

You merely take a verse out of context and hurl them at people with derision - as if Paul is writing this line to A-Christian personally... The implications are that you have judged A-Christian to be a "natural" man, knowing nothing about him or his devotion to Christ. Naturally, he is "foolish" because he disagrees with you and your false gospel. The typical response from the proud man without a clue on the ways of the Lord.

Regards

 

[stovebolts]

Good morning Tom,
Still waiting for your reply.
(Too bad you didn't accept a one on one debate w/ me on this matter )

I wish you could see since water baptism or any of the other ordinances that denominations burden people down is not listed here and since it says the Gentiles are not to be troubled who have turned to God.

Baptism is not a burden. If taught properly, it is a response to the saving Gospel of Christ.

Let me ask you, (and I do expect a response)
Is turning to Christ a burden?
Was it a burden when Christ went into the Baptismal pool with John to be recognized among the transgressors?
Is it a burden to be a follower of Christ?
Is it a burden, as a follower of Christ to go where Jesus has gone?
Is it a burden to identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus?

The questions can go on and on and on, but I believe that these are a good start. When one enters the baptismal pool, it is not a burden.

Naamen expected something spectacular, something 'spiritual', and he even got mad cause, 'it's just a river'... I think there's a lot we can learn from 1 Kings 5.

water and spirit baptism make two baptisms when I went to school.

Your looking at scripture through a 21 century lens. The Bible isn't raw data to be calculated and intellectualized as some mathematical equation. We have been taught to view facts, and we can use 911 as an example. You see, it's possible to have all the facts on 911, such as two planes (what kind of planes, how many people on each plane, who made the plane, when was the plane last serviced) crashed into the world towers (how tall were the towers, what were they made of, who build them) and both came down because of X Y and Z. A few brave firemen lost their lives X Y and Z, many died, some jumped out windows, X Y Z... you get the point. We can have all the facts, and never understand what truly happened because there is so much more going on than simple facts and details...

There is one Baptism, and one alone. You can't separate the physical from the Spiritual because they are one, as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. (last time I went to school that made three ;) )

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is taken out of context... or, you seem to view Baptism as part of the Mosaic law :gah

 

[Tomlane]

Hi Jeff, Ladies come first and its on the same subject and soon as Gabriell and I are done then I will gladly do that.

Better yet I'll get two threads going at the same time or what do you think Jeff?

Tomlane

 

[stovebolts]

Tom,

I'm assuming your "Ladies come first" is in regard to the debate.

But as far as my post that you have yet to respond to, it stems from page one of this discussion.

I would contend that water baptism is very much for today, regardless if your Catholic or Protestant.

I patiently await your response,

Grace and Peace,

Jeff

 

[Rick W]

Gabriel is a he.

 

[Gabe]

I would just like to clarify that Tom had mistaken me for Entropic_Prodigy (who is a 'she') and i am most definitely a 'he'.

 

[Tomlane]

Gabriel is a he.

Yes so I found out and Entropic_Prodigy is a she. So between who is a he and who is she I think I have who she is and who he is now. So If I have the she mixed up with the he then don't confuse me further with who she is and he and he could be she. All I know for sure who me is.

Thanks

 

[Rick W]

I couldn't have said it better Tomlane

 

[Vic C.]

Tom, you say water baptism isn't for today, but you sure have had your share of baptism by fire on these forums.

 

[lovely]

Obedience in Baptism, which is an outward act of simple obedience for those who believe with their heart and confess with their mouth, glorifies God. All things done in Christ, done by those who have come to Him through faith, are a joy and bring glory to God, especially when it is something that He specifically asked us to do in His Word. The Lord bless you.

lovely is a she. ;)

 

[Tomlane]

Obedience in Baptism, which is an outward act of simple obedience for those who believe with their heart and confess with their mouth, glorifies God. All things done in Christ, done by those who have come to Him through faith, are a joy and bring glory to God, especially when it is something that He specifically asked us to do in His Word. The Lord bless you.

lovely is a she. ;)

:D Lovely you are very funny and thank for cluing me in. Not a problem I had the same problem when I was five years old.

Lovely can you please show me from scripture where we are to have obedience to Baptism that it is an outward act of simple obedience for those who believe with their hearts and confess with their mouth that glorifies God?

I think perhaps you have added obedience to baptism with the following verses.

Romans 10:8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Next is the complete list of scripture with the word confess in it and not one of them has water baptism or the obedience to water in them anywhere.

Romans 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Romans 15:9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Philippians 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
James 5:16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
2 John 1:7  ¶For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

When we add or take away from God's word here are a couple of verses that touch on this subject.

Romans 14:23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It was nice meeting you Lovely and if care to make any more comments or question please feel free to do so.

May the Lord bless you, Tomlane

 

[duval]

Acts 8 very definitely has the confession that Jesus is the Christ assocdiated with water baptism.

 

[Tomlane]

Tom, you say water baptism isn't for today, but you sure have had your share of baptism by fire on these forums.

HI Vic, yes in a way you are very correct. Anytime we have truth the world hates it. That's why Paul was hated in Asia. I don't think Christ is any more popular today then He was when He was here in the flesh. Since we have far more apostasy today, probably He is hated even more.

The more heat I get the more encouraged I am in the things of the Lord. There is some people who you can reason with but for some, instead of giving scripture for all their beliefs they intellectualize it right out the window. People like that are most always a waste of time but who knows who might be hungry for the truth.

I have my suntan lotion if it gets too hot. :biglaugh

Tomlane

 

[francisdesales]

HI Vic, yes in a way you are very correct. Anytime we have truth the world hates it. That's why Paul was hated in Asia.

You ain't no Paul, my friend. Far from it.

Nor do you have the truth on this matter. Scriptures have been given and your "arguments" have reverted to twisting Scriptures to use as insults. Such tactics are clearly ones that false teachers use because they cannot support what they invent. By your works, you are known.

The more heat I get the more encouraged I am in the things of the Lord.

LOL! You are receiving heat because you are dead wrong and Christians are taught to provide correction to those in error, like yourself. Being wrong doesn't make someone more "in the things of the Lord"! Read Matthew 18:16-17 for those who are obstinate in error and REFUSE to be corrected, even by the Church.

Your's pretty twisted logic, as the Lord is not a deviser of confusion, such as you are displaying here. The father of confusion is Satan, and he will gladly feed people with proud assertions that they are right and the Bible and 2000 years of Christianity is wrong...

Regards

 

[Free]

HI Vic, yes in a way you are very correct. Anytime we have truth the world hates it. That's why Paul was hated in Asia. I don't think Christ is any more popular today then He was when He was here in the flesh. Since we have far more apostasy today, probably He is hated even more.

The more heat I get the more encouraged I am in the things of the Lord. There is some people who you can reason with but for some, instead of giving scripture for all their beliefs they intellectualize it right out the window. People like that are most always a waste of time but who knows who might be hungry for the truth.

I have my suntan lotion if it gets too hot. :biglaugh

Oh good grief. Please get off your pedestal and drop the persecution complex. It really isn't funny.

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

"Entropic_Prodigy"

Is anyone arguing here that water baptism a vassel for salvation, by itself? Even Mormons and JW's baptize... I don't think anyone could argue that they will be "saved" by this act alone...(if you can, meet me in the debate forum)

I meant, if anyone can argue that Mormons and JW's are saved by baptism alone, they can meet me in the debate forum. It was for anyone who was trying to say/imply that baptism alone saves... I can see where you thought otherwise, and if you still want to debate that baptism alone can save, sure...but I think it would kind of destroy the purpose of this particular thread.

 

[lovely]

Dear Tom,

I do not disagree with you concerning John's water baptism. It was an outward baptism of repentance from God to prepare the way for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, Jesus submitted Himself in simple obedience to this baptism to fulfill all righteousness as an example before us. (This was not a baptism to become Jewish)

Outward baptism of today, now in Christ, is a sign of us being united with Christ in His death, a 'likeness' of His death in our flesh based on our inner belief. This 'likeness' acheived in our outward baptism, if we have faith in Christ, also assures us that we will also be raised again in our mortal bodies. Christ was resurrected through the glory of the Father, we also walk in newness of life, but we will also be resurrected physcially. Right now, we are being transformed, as He was, by God's glory. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Consider Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I also believe that Christ told the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as an outward sign of this belief. Matthew 28:19-20 The disciples baptized with water, not with fire or with the Holy Spirit as Jesus can, but with water in obedience to His command...and they taught others to also follow His commands.

The elders at our chapel instruct believers to be baptized with water, and have shown biblical support for their position with the whole counsel of Scripture. They do not teach that it saves, only through faith are we saved, but they do teach that this heart obedience identifies us with Christ, his death and resurrection, and brings glory to God. These are men who are qualified elders, spiritual men. This also makes it a matter of obedience to our elders.

I appreciate your heart on this issue, to encourage us to not walk after the flesh, but I do not see the baptism (water baptism coupled with sincere faith) in Christ as an act done in the flesh, or following Jewish ordinances. I see it as a simple obedience in taking on the likeness of Christ's death in our flesh....I think it is a physical act that actually encourages us walking after the Spirit in the likeness of Christ.

I realize we do not agree, and I give you grace and liberty in the matter.

The Lord bless you.