Rehash: Who is The Bride?

[Vic C.]

Excerpts taken from this thread http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0 and all unrated material edited out. One may check the validity of quotes in that thread.

The Bride is an appellation used only of one group of people. That people are the Children of Israel. There is no mention of her being taken anywhere.

Hi everyone, …

Ben is correct in my opinion; the Bride is Israel not the church. The Church is the Body.

Coop is correct concerning the Last Trump; it is not one of the angelic trumps of Revelation. See this for clarification.

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

and

http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/trump.html

One must understand the relationship between the Jewish feasts and the End Times.…

... Virgins indicate a chaste Bride. So this becomes a parable about the Bride of Christ. It doesn't even refer to the Church in the New Testament era at all. This parable is given in reference to the Nation of Israel. The Bride of Christ is always the Nation of Israel.

3)According to this parable, there is a crier going through the streets at the midnight hour, announcing His coming. This ties into the verse where we are told that "He will do no thing in the earth without He first tell His prophet." At the last minute, just prior to His appearing there will be a warning. "Behold the Bridegroom cometh." That messenger at the last minute was John the Baptist.

Now we do know that the majority of the Nation of Israel was not ready for Him when He came. Although many welcomed Him when He came; the ones who weren't ready were cast into outer darkness, where they are still weeping and gnashing their teeth. They have even consecrated what is left of the foundation of the Temple as a place of weeping. There they weep at the height from which they have fallen, and what they have lost. They await the day when God will release them from the darkness He has thrown them into and cause His light to shine upon them once again. They have, in the clearest literal sense, been cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Just Like Jesus said in the Parable of the 10 Virgins. It is amazing how much prophetic authority He spoke with when He said some of the things He did.

What are Christians?

That's simple and Biblical Gabby... We are The Body of Christ. Israel is The Bride. How many times throughout the OT do we see Israel being refered to as the feminine gender? I know this line of thinking is strange to many because of what they have been taught (traditionally) but are you/they being taught correctly? Only the Bible can confirm that.

Is it so hard to understand that believers are the bride of Christ, whether one is Jew or Gentle, or any race? We believers just have not been to the wedding yet, which will be in Heaven. Old Testament Saints have not yet had their wedding, but will sometime after we come back with Jesus to set up the 1000 year reign. I guess, one can say we are all waiting for this great celebration. But until then, we can say the Church is the Bride of Christ.

May God bless, golfjack

You are correct... we can say the Church is the Bride. We have that prerogative. However, the Bible does not indicate the church is the bride, so it is not true teaching. The Bible teaches us that Israel is the bride.

Sorry... :-?

Ok, Gabby;
Vic and Solo have tried to clarify the answer to that question for you, and me. Thanks Guys! But let me add to what has already been said. Hopefully, I won't get banned for what I am about to say, or confuse you.

Marriage is the first covenant given by God to man. The purpose of this covenant was to create, or re-create life. (Did you know that there is an underlying purpose to every covenant?) We could therefore surmise that marriage is a holy and important thing in the eyes of God.

His earliest dealings with man begin with a marriage. His final dealings will close with a marriage. In the passage that Solo presented to you, we see a marriage taking place. The Bride of Christ is being united to the Body of Christ on a cosmological scale, and the purpose of this union will also be to produce life. It is my absolute conviction that God intends to populate the Universe with Himself.

…
The old covenant Israel used to be His bride, but the groom died, releasing both sides from this wedding….

However, God divorced Israel even before He died:…

Therefore, I still believe that the church is to be His bride. However, correct me if I am wrong.

It is commonly and traditionally taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ. But no. The scripture overwhelmingly affirms that the Nation of Israel is the Bride, and the Church is the Body of Christ. There are spurious scriptures such as the one Gabby brought up a while back. But if examined in the proper context, it is clear that Paul was referring to the Corinthian Church specifically, and not the Church as a whole on an eschatological level.

The unfortunate side effect of believing that we are the Bride of Christ is that we have no way of coming to the understanding of who we really are in the Plan of God.

Jesus was the physical embodiment of the Godhead. But yet, "as He is, so are we in this world." The direct implication of that statement is that we also are the embodiment of the Godhead. If we are His Bride, that would not pertain to us. The understanding that we are His Bride therefore is causing you to live beneath your allotment.

If we are His Bride, we cannot be joint-heirs with Him. Women weren't reckoned into any inheritance.

If we are His Bride, it is necessary for us to give birth to the Man-Child. We can't. We are the Man-Child.

Do you still want to be the Bride?

Then:
Who are these?

Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Are you going to tell me that this great multitude is make up of Jews? I don't think so! I suspect that they are the same group as seen in the great crowd without number in chapter 7. However, if you see something here I don't see, by all means enlighten me.

Coop

Coop,

My first question would be "What is it about that scripture that you think disagrees with what I have said?"

My second question would be "What is it about that scripture that makes you think that this multitude would be made up of Israelites?"

BTW: Israelites is the proper moniker. To say that they are Jews would be to confine them to only one of the twelve tribes. To call them Israeli's would be incorrect as well. Our God never made any covenants with an Israeli.

This passage of scripture is only relating to us that there is a great multitude worshipping the Lord and that there is an announcement in Heaven that the Marriage of the Lamb is now ready to begin.

What makes you think this scripture is at odds with what has been said here?

Continued

 

[Vic C.]

have a question, isn't Romans 7 speaking to Jews? I had thought it was.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Clarke's commentary even seemd to agree. So does the conrext of the passage.

NOTES ON CHAP. VII. The apostle having, in the preceding chapter, shown the converted Gentiles the obligations they were under to live a holy life, addresses himself here to the Jews who might hesitate to embrace the Gospel; lest, by this means, they should renounce the law, which might appear to them as a renunciation of their allegiance to God. As they rested in the law, as sufficient for justification and sanctification, it was necessary to convince them of their mistake. That the law was insufficient for their justification the apostle had proved, in chapters iii., iv., and v.; that it is insufficient for their sanctification he shows in this chapter; and introduces his discourse by showing that a believing Jew is discharged from his obligations to the law, and is at liberty to come under another and much happier constitution, ...

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerom7.htm

[quote:64f14]The seven years, a year for a day, also fits the Jewish wedding week.

Yes it does Coop. [/quote:64f14]

You may be right, Vic.
I do know that the man in Romans 7 is an UNconverted man, who wants to be saved.

The whole context of Romans 7 says that....as compared to Romans 8, which is the converted man.

The Bride is the New Jerusalem with the names of the Apostles on the 12 foundations, and the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on the 12 gates. Revelation 21

All whose names are written in the Book of Life are the bride of Christ.

The Body of Christ are those who are believers from the day of Pentecost until the return of Jesus Christ.

Well, I am pleasantly surprized and disappointed in a good kind of way.

I would have guessed that I was the only one that believed that The Bride of Christ wasn't the same as the Body of Christ. So in that I am pleasantly surprized. But I am also disappointed by the same facts. It kind of takes the fun out of being the only one who understood such a wonderful secret.

How many Southern Baptists do you know that hold that position concerning the Bride of Christ?

Two; you and I... and one indepentant Baptist; AVBunyan. I can't remember if I worked it out through study or if I read it somewhere in my research. Doesn't matter, I believe it.

Now, AV would say that if we believe that, we should take it to the next logical step; PreTrib. :o

 

[MrVersatile48]

Funny that the 5 wise virgins & 5 foolish virgins story is told by Jesus to the 12 in a reply to their question about the signs of the end - see Matt 24:31-50

Matthew 24:31-50 (New International Version)


31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[a]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until al

l these things have happened.

35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[c] but only the Father.

37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,'

49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.

50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

Footnotes:

Matthew 24:33 Or he
Matthew 24:34 Or race
Matthew 24:36 Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son.

 

[lecoop]

BenJasher wrote:

Coop,

My first question would be "What is it about that scripture that you think disagrees with what I have said?"

My second question would be "What is it about that scripture that makes you think that this multitude would be made up of Israelites?"

BTW: Israelites is the proper moniker. To say that they are Jews would be to confine them to only one of the twelve tribes. To call them Israeli's would be incorrect as well. Our God never made any covenants with an Israeli.

This passage of scripture is only relating to us that there is a great multitude worshipping the Lord and that there is an announcement in Heaven that the Marriage of the Lamb is now ready to begin.

What makes you think this scripture is at odds with what has been said here?

Ah! I am beginning to see! Yes, there is a great crowd. Yes, there is a notification: " for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." However, there is nothing to say that the great crowd is the "wife." We do see that she is "arrayed in fine linen", and that fine linen is to represent "the righteousness of saints." This term, "saints" could be descendants of Jacob, or they could be Gentile saints. Anyone agree or disagree?

Added later: it is interesting that people that have visited heaven lately, have seen the preparations for this marriage supper (either in vision or being there I don't know.) There were picnic tables along the river, as far as the eye could see! As one saw, angels were still preparing, but as another saw later, the preparations were all finished. Each place setting had a name on a plaque.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


I am inclined to believe that the saaved Remnant of Israel is granted the same fine linen as the NT saints because they have inherited the same righteousness as the NT saints.

These can't be the same people as those in Rev 19:14

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The ones in 19:7 are here on Earth. The ones in 19:14 were in Heaven already with the Groom.

Two different groups of people.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

If the NT saints are the bride, John would be part of this "bride". Why bother showing him this bride?

So are we the bride, the Body or both? Logically we can't be both and we are told countless time we are The Body. The writers of Scripture wouldn't try to confuse us. So, we are either one or the other, not both. I believe there is overwhelming support for one and not the other, or both.

 

[lecoop]

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


I am inclined to believe that the saaved Remnant of Israel is granted the same fine linen as the NT saints because they have inherited the same righteousness as the NT saints.

These can't be the same people as those in Rev 19:14

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The ones in 19:7 are here on Earth. The ones in 19:14 were in Heaven already with the Groom.

Two different groups of people.

I must not be seeing what you are seeing. I believe this great crowd is in heaven, where John is, and where John sees them:

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

This then, sets the context as in heaven.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

This confirms that the setting is in heaven. Then the next verse starts:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude,


The context then, is in heaven.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse...

Where would a "fellowservant" be? Of course, in heaven. Where will Jesus descend from? Of course, heaven. Therefore, this entire text is about heaven.
It is possible that the second group is a different group, but it seems more likely that they are the same.

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

If the NT saints are the bride, John would be part of this "bride". Why bother showing him this bride?

So are we the bride, the Body or both? Logically we can't be both and we are told countless time we are The Body. The writers of Scripture wouldn't try to confuse us. So, we are either one or the other, not both. I believe there is overwhelming support for one and not the other, or both.

They had a different way of saying things back then. When we think of a city, we think of tall buildings, and endless developments. Notice these verses:

Matthew 2:3
When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Were all the buildings troubled? No, it was the people in the city that were troubled.

Matthew 3:5
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Did all the buildings go out to see Him? No, the people in Jerusalem went out. It seems then, when John was shown the New Jerusalem, and heard that it was called the "bride," it was not the city itself, with its splendor and glory, but rather, those that were dwelling in that city.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

:-D I'm not actually looking for a debate. I'm really just "thinking out loud" and putting my thoughts in writing. It helps me sort out ideas. All comments are welcome. That too will help sort out our ideas.

I originally compiled this thread at the request of Javier. There was a thread that was leaning towards a discussion of who is the Bride and it was derailing the thread. We hoped people would come here to discuss it instead. So far, only you, Mr.V and myself have posted. :-?

 

[lecoop]

:-D I'm not actually looking for a debate. I'm really just "thinking out loud" and putting my thoughts in writing. It helps me sort out ideas. All comments are welcome. That too will help sort out our ideas.

I originally compiled this thread at the request of Javier. There was a thread that was leaning towards a discussion of who is the Bride and it was derailing the thread. We hoped people would come here to discuss it instead. So far, only you, Mr.V and myself have posted. :-?

I agree! "Thinking out loud" and then being challenged, helps keep out thinking straight! :-D

Coop

 

[jgredline]

I am here :-D .....
Ok, thinking out loud....

Who is the bride?
Some folks teach that it is the modern day Church, that it replaced Israel
Some folks teach that it is the Catholic Church
Some folks teach that it is the complete body of Christ
Some folks teach that it is Israel / the Jews

Now the Groom is Jesus....I believe we can all agree on that..

So, here is a question...Do you folks think that we get a huge hint on who the
bride is in the ''Song of Solomon?

THink about it for a second...Lets look at how this book has been viewed

Jewish scholars around the time of the birth of Christ interpreted the book allegorically, stating that it describes the love of God for Israel...

Some folks have taught that the book speaks of the mystical relationship of the Lord Jesus Christ and His bride, the church....

Others have taught that this book teaches about sexaulaity in the context of Marriage...

And still others see it as love story between solomon and this country girl....

Any thoughts?

 

[n2thelight]

When we die we instantly return to the Father,When Christ returns all those that died in Christ He shall bring with Him.these are His Bride

Those that are here and have not been deceived by satan as the false Christ are also His Bride

That is why Christ would say woe to them that are with child and give suck in that Day(His return)most people seem to think that this is a time when it will be bad for a mother and her child however that is far from the truth,Christ is speaking in a spiritual sense meaning that if you are with child you have been suduced by the false Christ,because your true Husband (Christ)could not be the Father because He had yet to return,and it means that you were fooling around(spiritual while He was away)

That is why Paul would say that he wanted to present you as a virgin to Christ and for you to not be deceived as Eve was,Eve was deceived by satan and he will attempt to deceive us also this time by getting the world to believe that he is Christ,therefor impregnating you with a lie(deception)

I say all that to say this all Christains who are not deceived and who waits on the Lord are His Bride

 

[n2thelight]

Two of the most confusing words in The Bible for modern readers are Gentiles and Jews. These words can be a block over which many stumble; since most will not bother to actually research these terms, there is great confusion over their actual use and meaning. Further:

what exactly is a Jew in today's society?
Is America at all mentioned in prophecy?
What happened to the Ten so-called Lost Tribes of Israel?

Lot's of questions in this study, and I think you will be surprised by the answers. Let's start with the basics - This section will cover the Hebrew words goi (singular) and goyim (plural), as they are used in The Old Testament, and the Greek words ethnos (singular) and ethne (plural), as used in The New Testament. The Hebrew word goi appears over 550 times in the Old Testament, while the Greek word ethnos appears over 160 times in the New Testament. The Hebrew word goi and the Greek word ethnos have been translated nations more than any other word. The word gentile comes from the Latin word gentilis and means a clan, a race, and can either be your own clan or race, or can be applied to a foreigner. Ecclesiastically it was used in the past to signify pagans or heathens.

Please read the rest here if you like


http://www.frank.germano.com/gentilesandjews.htm

 

[Solo]

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:9-27