[_ Old Earth _] Religious Belief and Objectivity

[Doulos Iesou]

Throughout this forum you will find a wide assortment of people espousing all kinds of beliefs be it flat earth, young earth, geocentricity, creationism, etc. To a person who is knowledgeable about the history of science, it will seem rather odd, almost like being back in time to see what most view as outdated and falsified ideas being held so zealously. This is not to demean those who hold to these ideas, but rather to highlight a major point that largely goes undiscussed on this forum. That point is the nature of Religious Belief and how it affects our Objectivity on matters related to the scientific.

A religious belief is very different from a normal belief, for instance I believe that it will rain this week in Washington State. I hold this belief based off of projections made by experts, my own personal experience in Washington State, and given the fact that it has the appearance of looking like it will rain continuously this week. If you were to disagree with me on this belief, it would be highly unlikely to illicit an emotional response from me. I wouldn't passionately defend my belief and state my allegiance to a person or thing as an anchor to my belief. I am actually rather indifferent about the weather this week, which leaves me somewhat objective about what I and others predict will happen.

Religious beliefs on the other hand are on matters more consequential to us and thus come with more emotional power behind our beliefs. These are beliefs that we stake our identity on, that we plot our life's course on the basis of them being true. Most importantly, we root these beliefs within trusting in a particular person, God. Therefore when we are challenged in our beliefs on a certain point, be it Evolution, many of us will object fervently as it appears almost as an assault on God. That it must be some secular or perhaps demonic plot to subvert belief in the God we cherish for acceptance of some natural series of events that created the diversity we see.

I am not saying that having religious beliefs are wrong, but what I am saying is that they deeply influence our ability to be objective. Would someone really believe in a flat earth, were it not for some text that they interpret such? Would someone really believe the earth is only 6,000 if it were not for an inference made off of a religious text? Given that modern science is driven by skepticism, it seems rather incompatible with religious belief which is founded on a deep trust.

On this basis, it makes debate and discussion on this forum very difficult. It is extremely difficult to separate oneself from their own point of view, especially when it is so important and powerful to them, and look to someone else's perspective or entertain an idea they don't accept.

Thus it is my opinion that Religious Belief does not lead towards objectivity, especially on matters pertaining to science. Note that I am not saying that simply because one has religious beliefs that they cannot be objective, I am merely saying that it makes it much more difficult.

 

[twinc]

Throughout this forum you will find a wide assortment of people espousing all kinds of beliefs be it flat earth, young earth, geocentricity, creationism, etc. To a person who is knowledgeable about the history of science, it will seem rather odd, almost like being back in time to see what most view as outdated and falsified ideas being held so zealously. This is not to demean those who hold to these ideas, but rather to highlight a major point that largely goes undiscussed on this forum. That point is the nature of Religious Belief and how it affects our Objectivity on matters related to the scientific.

A religious belief is very different from a normal belief, for instance I believe that it will rain this week in Washington State. I hold this belief based off of projections made by experts, my own personal experience in Washington State, and given the fact that it has the appearance of looking like it will rain continuously this week. If you were to disagree with me on this belief, it would be highly unlikely to illicit an emotional response from me. I wouldn't passionately defend my belief and state my allegiance to a person or thing as an anchor to my belief. I am actually rather indifferent about the weather this week, which leaves me somewhat objective about what I and others predict will happen.

Religious beliefs on the other hand are on matters more consequential to us and thus come with more emotional power behind our beliefs. These are beliefs that we stake our identity on, that we plot our life's course on the basis of them being true. Most importantly, we root these beliefs within trusting in a particular person, God. Therefore when we are challenged in our beliefs on a certain point, be it Evolution, many of us will object fervently as it appears almost as an assault on God. That it must be some secular or perhaps demonic plot to subvert belief in the God we cherish for acceptance of some natural series of events that created the diversity we see.

I am not saying that having religious beliefs are wrong, but what I am saying is that they deeply influence our ability to be objective. Would someone really believe in a flat earth, were it not for some text that they interpret such? Would someone really believe the earth is only 6,000 if it were not for an inference made off of a religious text? Given that modern science is driven by skepticism, it seems rather incompatible with religious belief which is founded on a deep trust.

On this basis, it makes debate and discussion on this forum very difficult. It is extremely difficult to separate oneself from their own point of view, especially when it is so important and powerful to them, and look to someone else's perspective or entertain an idea they don't accept.

Thus it is my opinion that Religious Belief does not lead towards objectivity, especially on matters pertaining to science. Note that I am not saying that simply because one has religious beliefs that they cannot be objective, I am merely saying that it makes it much more difficult.

 

[twinc]

here then is the great error/mistake - what has been stated seems and sounds very profound and reasonable and sensible and plausible and easily acceptable by supposedly highly educated/qualified/reasonable/sensible adults - but so lets be reasonable and see this is not the solution or qualification but in most cases the deterrent and problem for it seems as one who would have and rightly knew human nature stated it is very difficult if not impossible for many adults [ supposedly rich in their own minds etc] to simply simply believe as little children - it is written that everything that is written is written so that we may simply simply believe and live[Jn.20:31] - so how simple is this for adults ? - twinc

 

[Doulos Iesou]

here then is the great error/mistake - what has been stated seems and sounds very profound and reasonable and sensible and plausible and easily acceptable by supposedly highly educated/qualified/reasonable/sensible adults - but so lets be reasonable and see this is not the solution or qualification but in most cases the deterrent and problem for it seems as one who would have and rightly knew human nature stated it is very difficult if not impossible for many adults [ supposedly rich in their own minds etc] to simply simply believe as little children - it is written that everything that is written is written so that we may simply simply believe and live[Jn.20:31] - so how simple is this for adults ? - twinc

What if the Qu'ran said the same thing as the Bible, that you simply believe. The Book of Mormon says just about the same thing. You exercise a certain degree of skepticism to these belief systems and sacred texts, but not the Bible.

What I am contending for here isn't for people to stop being Christians or to severely doubt their faith, but to learn to hold their own beliefs to the same standards they wish to hold others.

As Jesus also instructed us to be without hypocrisy.

 

[twinc]

What if the Qu'ran said the same thing as the Bible, that you simply believe. The Book of Mormon says just about the same thing. You exercise a certain degree of skepticism to these belief systems and sacred texts, but not the Bible.

What I am contending for here isn't for people to stop being Christians or to severely doubt their faith, but to learn to hold their own beliefs to the same standards they wish to hold others.

As Jesus also instructed us to be without hypocrisy.

yes sure go ahead do just that if you wish - all Jesus also said is " I am the way - no one comes to the Father but by me" - it behoves me as a Christian to tell you this and leave it up to you and others - twinc

 

[Edward]

He does make a pretty good point. Being adults and supposing that we are smart, it does make it hard to try and see something from anothers point of view. This is why we are told to become as a little child and seek God. Little kids haven't been indoctrinated yet and still have enough imagination to be able to receive new concepts.
Plus men have a lot of pride. That's a big one there.

The thing is, and I highly doubt that any would disagree with me on this...that deception is the enemies greatest tool, and that we have been lied to our entire lives. Taught the wrong things, and in many cases by people that we love and respect. People that were sincere and trying to help, but were merely wrong about something.

All of this brings more importance to the passage that reads, bring up a child in the way that he should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it. And also seek the Lord as a little child, as if you know nothing. We have to be able to receive the truth and not reject it based on emotions or presuppositions. Critical thinking is not taught in schools anymore. I wonder why?

I've been practicing being able to set aside pre conceived notions and take an honest look at differing points of view. I'm getting better at it, but it can be dangerous. We can't just go swallowing any new thing that comes along. SO it takes discipline, prayer, critical thinking and study.

Some things are not in the bible. Truths. How many of you pray for wisdom and understanding? I do A Lot. The Spirit WILL reveal things to you. I KNOW the bible is true for God Himself has revealed Himself to me. This is not something that can be proven, but these things ARE true. That's how God works. He wants us to have faith in Him. To study and show ourselves approved. To seek Him with our whole heart. We WILL find Him if we do this, and the truth.

The biggest danger in seeking the truth is educated people. They can make deceptions sound very plausible and many believe the garbage that they spout. One thing seems clear...we can't do it alone, or with our intellect. We need God and His guidance, or we will die.

 

[Edward]

As hard as it may be, we are NOT to lean upon our own understanding.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

He does make a pretty good point. Being adults and supposing that we are smart, it does make it hard to try and see something from anothers point of view. This is why we are told to become as a little child and seek God. Little kids haven't been indoctrinated yet and still have enough imagination to be able to receive new concepts.

Yet little children also are far more susceptible to being deceived or manipulated as well. The problem isn't supposing one is smart, the problem is extreme absolutism, where a person supposes that they have a perfect understanding of the universe and of reality. For myself, I am personally very limited in my knowledge and open to increase and clarification on the current knowledge I have.

Plus men have a lot of pride. That's a big one there.

Hence it is important to be wise men, who understand our limitations and preconceived biases, rather than proud foolish men.

The thing is, and I highly doubt that any would disagree with me on this...that deception is the enemies greatest tool, and that we have been lied to our entire lives. Taught the wrong things, and in many cases by people that we love and respect. People that were sincere and trying to help, but were merely wrong about something.

Sure, there is loads of misinformation out there, though as you said, much of it doesn't have any kind of malicious nature behind it but is just relayed off of the basis of being misinformed.

All of this brings more importance to the passage that reads, bring up a child in the way that he should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it. And also seek the Lord as a little child, as if you know nothing. We have to be able to receive the truth and not reject it based on emotions or presuppositions. Critical thinking is not taught in schools anymore. I wonder why?

Yet how to distinguish truth from falsehood, that is a key point that you have yet to touch on. Though we should not reject the truth based on emotions and presuppositions, should we turn around and accept something as true based on our emotions and presuppositions?

We're at the heart of the issue discussed here, objectivity.

I've been practicing being able to set aside pre conceived notions and take an honest look at differing points of view. I'm getting better at it, but it can be dangerous. We can't just go swallowing any new thing that comes along. SO it takes discipline, prayer, critical thinking and study.

Indeed we can't just accept anything new that we receive, and we must be tentative with new information. I agree.

Some things are not in the bible. Truths. How many of you pray for wisdom and understanding? I do A Lot. The Spirit WILL reveal things to you. I KNOW the bible is true for God Himself has revealed Himself to me. This is not something that can be proven, but these things ARE true. That's how God works. He wants us to have faith in Him. To study and show ourselves approved. To seek Him with our whole heart. We WILL find Him if we do this, and the truth.

A Mormon's testimony won't seem a big different from what you have just stated. How do you then determine that his testimony is false, and yours to be true? They believe that the Spirit reveals things to them, and that God has revealed the truth to them in very much the same way.

This is something difficult that we face when we treat the truth subjectively.

The biggest danger in seeking the truth is educated people. They can make deceptions sound very plausible and many believe the garbage that they spout. One thing seems clear...we can't do it alone, or with our intellect. We need God and His guidance, or we will die.

This is the kind of anti-intellectualism that is pervasive throughout much of the Christian community. That those who have been extensively educated are attempting to deceive, which is a presupposition that is supported by no evidence. This of course further supports my case regarding objectivity. That all their education has done was to make their lies more plausible. When in fact, modern science is built off of the foundation of using objective evidence to support theories that can be constantly improved or even disproved.

You realize how you've completely shut yourself off from the possibility that there are certain things you could be wrong about, and that by ignoring the educated voices of the world you could prevent increased learning? Sure there is a chance that the educated person speaking to you is wrong, but how is that any different from any other kind of person be they religious or not?

We need to have a personal epistemological approach to how we determine something is true for ourselves, and learn to divide what is likely true and what is likely not. Having presuppositions about certain kinds of people, i.e. the educated, is not a great way to go about doing that.

 

[Edward]

Yet little children also are far more susceptible to being deceived or manipulated as well. The problem isn't supposing one is smart, the problem is extreme absolutism, where a person supposes that they have a perfect understanding of the universe and of reality. For myself, I am personally very limited in my knowledge and open to increase and clarification on the current knowledge I have.

true that. There's warnings in scripture about those that lead the little ones astray. I try to be real careful around little kids because of this. The older I get, the less I feel I know. Ah, the days when I knew everything! lol.

Hence it is important to be wise men, who understand our limitations and preconceived biases, rather than proud foolish men.

That's how it works. The humble wise man will say I don't know faster than that the proud foolish man.

Sure, there is loads of misinformation out there, though as you said, much of it doesn't have any kind of malicious nature behind it but is just relayed off of the basis of being misinformed.

That could be the worst kind of deception. Therein is the biggest practical obstacle for many. Suppose your mom or dad taught you something they feel was important, but were misinformed? If you find out they were wrong, what to do? Try to correct them?! Not a lot of parents will receive correction from their children (pride), and perhaps a lot of children respect their parents too much to even try to correct them. I understand not wanting to do that for it could bring on hurt feelings and damaged relationship. A quandary indeed.

Yet how to distinguish truth from falsehood, that is a key point that you have yet to touch on. Though we should not reject the truth based on emotions and presuppositions, should we turn around and accept something as true based on our emotions and presuppositions?

We're at the heart of the issue discussed here, objectivity.

True that again, and no, we shouldn't accept something as true based on feelings. God does not teach us sensually, but by His word. Dividing truth from falsehood used to be easier I've noticed. There are ways to pick up on the tells of outright lies. I've read some body language books and they help. I'm actually (been told) quite good at spotting lies, a human lie detector was the term used. But this info is getting around and people practice lying. That's a big part of salesman school. While it may be true that if they are covering tells that it will manifest in a different tell, these can be be quite subtle and hard to pick up on if one is not paying attention closely. Then you have misinformation. If they people believe what they say, the tells are not present. It's harder nowadays to discern the truth.

A Mormon's testimony won't seem a big different from what you have just stated. How do you then determine that his testimony is false, and yours to be true? They believe that the Spirit reveals things to them, and that God has revealed the truth to them in very much the same way.

This is something difficult that we face when we treat the truth subjectively.

That's a big true that. Especially since our Lord largely rolls on subjectivity. Personal relationship. He gives the answer to this in scripture though, don't take your eyes off the Lord, and test those spirits. I do not think it is wrong to question God in some instances. I say some instances because we have examples of both in scripture. Some who questioned God, and got answers or even changed Gods mind on something, and those that questioned God and were afflicted for it. So we have to be careful. I've pondered this a little and concluded that...at some times, God will immediately make it obvious that this is the real God speaking to you (His sheep will know His voice), and other times His voice is a still small whisper and it is not obvious who is speaking to us. At times, I find myself saying, Is that you God? It's possible to practice identifying the voices within us. It does take practice, but when in doubt, test that spirit. The Lord told us to do this and if we do it scripturally I do not think that God would be offended and afflict one for it. There was one time though for me, that the Lord spoke to me (heart to heart) and made it immediately obvious that it was Him and there was no question. He told me to pray for a brother. Like an idiot though, I still questioned Him. Why, what's wrong? Luckily, He was long suffering with me and compassionate, so did not afflict me for it. He simply repeated the command. Which I obeyed.

This is the kind of anti-intellectualism that is pervasive throughout much of the Christian community. That those who have been extensively educated are attempting to deceive, which is a presupposition that is supported by no evidence. This of course further supports my case regarding objectivity. That all their education has done was to make their lies more plausible. When in fact, modern science is built off of the foundation of using objective evidence to support theories that can be constantly improved or even disproved.

You realize how you've completely shut yourself off from the possibility that there are certain things you could be wrong about, and that by ignoring the educated voices of the world you could prevent increased learning? Sure there is a chance that the educated person speaking to you is wrong, but how is that any different from any other kind of person be they religious or not?

We need to have a personal epistemological approach to how we determine something is true for ourselves, and learn to divide what is likely true and what is likely not. Having presuppositions about certain kinds of people, i.e. the educated, is not a great way to go about doing that.

Here we go. Here's the crux of it. While I can generally agree with much of what you say here...my position here is, it is supported by evidence in scripture in many places. Proverbs 3:5-6 Romans 1:22 James 1:5 Daniel 2:21 Proverbs 1:5 Romans 12:2 2 Timothy 3:16 Colossians 2:8 Psalm 199:99 Jeremiah 10:2 Proverbs 9:9-10 Ecclesiastes 12:12 1 Peter 5:5 2 Timothy 2:7

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.~ Charles Spurgeon

Perhaps the extensively educated are not all attempting to deceive, I'll give you that. But scripture show us that the ways of the nations and world are a distraction from the learning of the Lord. We are clearly told to not to lean upon our own understanding, but to look to the Lord in all things. Do you think that I have shut myself off from the possibility that there are some things I could be wrong about? Give me an example of any worldly knowledge or understanding that could trump scripture and faith in God and inhibit valuable learning for me that would inhibit my walk with God.

My personal epistemological approach to how I determine something is true for myself, and learn to divide what is likely true and what is likely not, is to weigh it two ways. Does it agree/contradict scripture, and is it even a valuable thing to know and spend time on? I do believe that keeping the presupposition about the educated is scriptural and a good cautionary measure regarding ones walk with God, though it may perhaps seem unfair to the man who has spent a lot of money on his education and has no malicious intent to deceive.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

true that. There's warnings in scripture about those that lead the little ones astray. I try to be real careful around little kids because of this. The older I get, the less I feel I know. Ah, the days when I knew everything! lol.

Indeed, as we grow older our eyes are illuminated to all that we do not know, but that does not mean we know nothing. We have to know certain things as our knowledge informs our actions. For instance, I have to have real knowledge about the speed and location of cars in the road before crossing the street, I cannot remain ignorant or suppose that they aren't there. It is not foolish or arrogant to sometimes claim to know something and then provide sufficient justification, indeed it is sometimes necessary.

I doubt you would contest that.

That's how it works. The humble wise man will say I don't know faster than that the proud foolish man.

Agreed, the man who says I don't know is more likely to actually learn. Though it is also strange to say I don't know, when a person is of the belief that they do know. False humility is only hypocrisy, but perhaps when a person is uncertain a more tentative approach is better. To say, this is what I believe, but I am open to what you have tot say.

That could be the worst kind of deception. Therein is the biggest practical obstacle for many. Suppose your mom or dad taught you something they feel was important, but were misinformed? If you find out they were wrong, what to do? Try to correct them?! Not a lot of parents will receive correction from their children (pride), and perhaps a lot of children respect their parents too much to even try to correct them. I understand not wanting to do that for it could bring on hurt feelings and damaged relationship. A quandary indeed.

Deception implies intent, misinformation is different and does not carry malicious intention on the part of the person providing the instruction. We all end up learning things that are false, we can't avoid that. What we can do is to remain teachable and open to correction and additional information that could alter our previously held opinions or beliefs.

True that again, and no, we shouldn't accept something as true based on feelings. God does not teach us sensually, but by His word. Dividing truth from falsehood used to be easier I've noticed. There are ways to pick up on the tells of outright lies. I've read some body language books and they help. I'm actually (been told) quite good at spotting lies, a human lie detector was the term used. But this info is getting around and people practice lying. That's a big part of salesman school. While it may be true that if they are covering tells that it will manifest in a different tell, these can be be quite subtle and hard to pick up on if one is not paying attention closely. Then you have misinformation. If they people believe what they say, the tells are not present. It's harder nowadays to discern the truth.

That is why evidence based claims are so strong, because you don't have to evaluate a person's tells, but you can investigate the justification behind their statements and decide for yourself whether or not they are true. Sometimes in life we do use our intuition to discern certain sources of information, and through experience these can be honed. Yet, nothing is better than rationally assessing what we receive from others, as a person could be telling the truth or what is factual despite our being reticent to receive from such a source, that would be the genetic fallacy.

That's a big true that. Especially since our Lord largely rolls on subjectivity. Personal relationship. He gives the answer to this in scripture though, don't take your eyes off the Lord, and test those spirits. I do not think it is wrong to question God in some instances. I say some instances because we have examples of both in scripture. Some who questioned God, and got answers or even changed Gods mind on something, and those that questioned God and were afflicted for it. So we have to be careful. I've pondered this a little and concluded that...at some times, God will immediately make it obvious that this is the real God speaking to you (His sheep will know His voice), and other times His voice is a still small whisper and it is not obvious who is speaking to us. At times, I find myself saying, Is that you God? It's possible to practice identifying the voices within us. It does take practice, but when in doubt, test that spirit. The Lord told us to do this and if we do it scripturally I do not think that God would be offended and afflict one for it. There was one time though for me, that the Lord spoke to me (heart to heart) and made it immediately obvious that it was Him and there was no question. He told me to pray for a brother. Like an idiot though, I still questioned Him. Why, what's wrong? Luckily, He was long suffering with me and compassionate, so did not afflict me for it. He simply repeated the command. Which I obeyed.

How would you counter the Mormon's testimony, is there a particular test that they would fail given the nature of their account? For instance, say I was Mormon and I prayed to the Holy Spirit for confirmation of what I believe to be true (that is Mormon Doctrine) and I heard a still small voice whisper that it was. How would you claim that this person's subjective experience was false?

My personal epistemological approach to how I determine something is true for myself, and learn to divide what is likely true and what is likely not, is to weigh it two ways. Does it agree/contradict scripture, and is it even a valuable thing to know and spend time on? I do believe that keeping the presupposition about the educated is scriptural and a good cautionary measure regarding ones walk with God, though it may perhaps seem unfair to the man who has spent a lot of money on his education and has no malicious intent to deceive.

Yet how did you come to the point where your epistemological foundation was built on Scripture? I believe that a Christian must have an epistemological starting point prior to Scripture in order to substantiate their belief in the first place. To say I believe in Scripture because Scripture says it's true, is circular and fallacious logic. The Qu'ran and Book of Mormon are proven to be true if this logic is implemented.

Thanks for the good discussion thus far.

 

[twinc]

Indeed, as we grow older our eyes are illuminated to all that we do not know, but that does not mean we know nothing. We have to know certain things as our knowledge informs our actions. For instance, I have to have real knowledge about the speed and location of cars in the road before crossing the street, I cannot remain ignorant or suppose that they aren't there. It is not foolish or arrogant to sometimes claim to know something and then provide sufficient justification, indeed it is sometimes necessary.

I doubt you would contest that.


Agreed, the man who says I don't know is more likely to actually learn. Though it is also strange to say I don't know, when a person is of the belief that they do know. False humility is only hypocrisy, but perhaps when a person is uncertain a more tentative approach is better. To say, this is what I believe, but I am open to what you have tot say.


Deception implies intent, misinformation is different and does not carry malicious intention on the part of the person providing the instruction. We all end up learning things that are false, we can't avoid that. What we can do is to remain teachable and open to correction and additional information that could alter our previously held opinions or beliefs.


That is why evidence based claims are so strong, because you don't have to evaluate a person's tells, but you can investigate the justification behind their statements and decide for yourself whether or not they are true. Sometimes in life we do use our intuition to discern certain sources of information, and through experience these can be honed. Yet, nothing is better than rationally assessing what we receive from others, as a person could be telling the truth or what is factual despite our being reticent to receive from such a source, that would be the genetic fallacy.


How would you counter the Mormon's testimony, is there a particular test that they would fail given the nature of their account? For instance, say I was Mormon and I prayed to the Holy Spirit for confirmation of what I believe to be true (that is Mormon Doctrine) and I heard a still small voice whisper that it was. How would you claim that this person's subjective experience was false?


Yet how did you come to the point where your epistemological foundation was built on Scripture? I believe that a Christian must have an epistemological starting point prior to Scripture in order to substantiate their belief in the first place. To say I believe in Scripture because Scripture says it's true, is circular and fallacious logic. The Qu'ran and Book of Mormon are proven to be true if this logic is implemented.

Thanks for the good discussion thus far.

 

[twinc]

it will be noticed that I have a new thread 'Know Thyself' viz human nature- - this sort of discussion is endless = when young I did frequent seer and sage and saint and heard great argument about this and that and evermore but yet came out the same door wherein I went[Rubiyat] and "what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world of knowledge but lose his own soul[Jesus Christ] - sole judge of truth in endless error hurled, the glory, jest and riddle of the world[A.Pope] - we the sons of reason, we who take to bride knowledge and reject the dream denied[A.Noyes] - oh wisdom of the mind of man o learned talk o ceaseless brain when will we learn the hidden plan ,when will we learn to love again [ Neville] - twinc

 

[Barbarian]

As hard as it may be, we are NOT to lean upon our own understanding.

And yet you lean strongly on your understanding. What if your understanding is wrong?

 

[twinc]

And yet you lean strongly on your understanding. What if your understanding is wrong?

best refer to a trustworthy, reliable, acceptable, infallible authority - twinc

 

[Barbarian]

And yet you lean strongly on your understanding. What if your understanding is wrong?

best refer to a trustworthy, reliable, acceptable, infallible authority - twinc

How do you know your understanding of that authority is less fallible than that of others?

 

[Edward]

Doulos: Indeed, as we grow older our eyes are illuminated to all that we do not know, but that does not mean we know nothing. We have to know certain things as our knowledge informs our actions. For instance, I have to have real knowledge about the speed and location of cars in the road before crossing the street, I cannot remain ignorant or suppose that they aren't there. It is not foolish or arrogant to sometimes claim to know something and then provide sufficient justification, indeed it is sometimes necessary.

I doubt you would contest that.

You're right. i don't contest that.

Agreed, the man who says I don't know is more likely to actually learn. Though it is also strange to say I don't know, when a person is of the belief that they do know. False humility is only hypocrisy, but perhaps when a person is uncertain a more tentative approach is better. To say, this is what I believe, but I am open to what you have tot say.

That makes sense.

Deception implies intent, misinformation is different and does not carry malicious intention on the part of the person providing the instruction. We all end up learning things that are false, we can't avoid that. What we can do is to remain teachable and open to correction and additional information that could alter our previously held opinions or beliefs.

That's right too, and a big one. Being teachable is a huge and invaluable (skill?) ability. I read a cliche quote once that said, If you haven't changed your thoughts or beliefs within the last 10 years, check your pulse, you may be dead! The slippery slope of this one is in that, at times we do "know" certain things that the Lord has revealed to us as the truth. Which we then hold as a conviction...and then someone will come along and become offended, that you will not let them "teach you" the truth (error) that they hold to be true. I've been called heretic and all sorts of names becauseI wouldn't see things their way, lol. Not that I couldn't, I wouldn't.

That is why evidence based claims are so strong, because you don't have to evaluate a person's tells, but you can investigate the justification behind their statements and decide for yourself whether or not they are true. Sometimes in life we do use our intuition to discern certain sources of information, and through experience these can be honed. Yet, nothing is better than rationally assessing what we receive from others, as a person could be telling the truth or what is factual despite our being reticent to receive from such a source, that would be the genetic fallacy.

Boy, you said a mouthful there. The problem in this though is when people state as factual evidence, that which is not. The'll parrot some scientific babble talk as evidence...of which they know very little about except how to repeat the babble! In actuality, they...put their faith into the scientist(s) of which they parrot, and wont even admit it! They continue to state evidences that are clearly not. The flip side of this is of course where one puts a lot of study and prayer into the seeking of truth, to which God will reveal to them the truth of it (heart to heart, spirit to spirit etc..)...that can not be proven. So it creates an impasse. That can be discouraging at times. the best that can be done is to give the alternate views, so that future readers can decide...but the arrogant ones usually do not have it in themselves to be able to let it drop and let their posts stand alongside...the will continue to argue and become emotional and hostile. I wont even talk politics in my home anymore, because people are like that all over, even Christians. I almost got into a fistfight because I wouldn't "admit" (Ha!) that Obama is the best president that this country has ever had, lol. (That from a welfare suckling).

How would you counter the Mormon's testimony, is there a particular test that they would fail given the nature of their account? For instance, say I was Mormon and I prayed to the Holy Spirit for confirmation of what I believe to be true (that is Mormon Doctrine) and I heard a still small voice whisper that it was. How would you claim that this person's subjective experience was false?

You've given me little to go on with this, but i think I get the gist of it. You couldn't just claim that he was false, for he would say, but the Lord sayeth...so one would have to rely on scripture for any hope of a valid possibly provable claim that it was false. What they had said to them that was true...could absolutely not contradict scripture in the least. God does not contradict Himself. So if you could ask him or get him to admit that he did not "test the spirit", and then show him in scripture where the contradiction was...then pray for the man and let the Holy Spirit take it from there...That's what I think.

Yet how did you come to the point where your epistemological foundation was built on Scripture? I believe that a Christian must have an epistemological starting point prior to Scripture in order to substantiate their belief in the first place. To say I believe in Scripture because Scripture says it's true, is circular and fallacious logic. The Qu'ran and Book of Mormon are proven to be true if this logic is implemented.

Thanks for the good discussion thus far.

This is a good question. I came to the point where my epistemological foundation was built on Scripture by God revealing Himself to me...and yet, (as you say!) there was an epistemological starting point in my childhood before ever cracking a bible open. It began when I was about 8 or 9 with psychology. Somehow, I got the question in my mind of what are the limits of human knowledge and why in the world do people act the way they do? Quite a hobby for an 8 year old huh?! That's the kind of books I was reading when I was that age, lol. While the other kids my age were out having mudball fights, lol. Then around 13-14 I was handed a bible and studied that for a few years after which I largely set it aside from scholastic study, relegated to a part time hobby/curiousness sometimes while I went the way of the world pursuing lusts of the flesh, which continued through my 26 year marriage (to a non-devout catholic girl), after which (it broke up)...and then God chose to reach out to me and show Himself (figuratively but real) when I was in the valley of the shadow of death, and cried out to Him to help me. Which He did. That was 09, and since then I have taken up the scholastic study again in a big and serious way, building my epistemological pursuit upon scripture.

That about sums it up. Also, I agree. Good discussion.

 

[Edward]

... What if your understanding is wrong?

How do you know your understanding of that authority is less fallible than that of others?

That's why we seek to be led of the Spirit. Brain understanding will always fail. Understanding must be transferred from the brain center to the spirit center . Based on trust in God. Live for the Spirit. The Spirit must dominate over the brain understanding.

Because I seek to be led of the Spirit and to live for the Spirit, whereas most others (even Christians) will poo poo the things of the Spirit and keep the brain dominant rather than the Spirit...while professing to be Christian and belief in Gods word!!

 

[twinc]

That's why we seek to be led of the Spirit. Brain understanding will always fail. Understanding must be transferred from the brain center to the spirit center . Based on trust in God. Live for the Spirit. The Spirit must dominate over the brain understanding.

Because I seek to be led of the Spirit and to live for the Spirit, whereas most others (even Christians) will poo poo the things of the Spirit and keep the brain dominant rather than the Spirit...while professing to be Christian and belief in Gods word!!

see Hebrew's 1 - twinc

 

[Barbarian]

That's why we seek to be led of the Spirit.

So why do you think your judgement of where the Spirit wants you to go is superior to that of others? That is the road the Pharisees traveled, saying that even other Jews weren't really following His will. Spiritual arrogance led them to a dead end, all the while thinking that the Spirit was with them.

 

[Edward]

So why do you think your judgement of where the Spirit wants you to go is superior to that of others? That is the road the Pharisees traveled, saying that even other Jews weren't really following His will. Spiritual arrogance led them to a dead end, all the while thinking that the Spirit was with them.

Huh? What makes you think that I think that I'm in any way superior to others? I don't. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I have a some convictions that I may speak strongly of because of my confidence in the Lord, but that in no way makes me superior to anyone.