Researching the troublesome passage John 17:3

[John Zain]

John 17:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life
to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Following are 5 statements made by Jews at the time of Jesus …

The Messiah (Hebrew) = The Christ (English)
“We have found the Messiah (which is translated the Christ)” (John 1:41)
“The woman (a non-Jew) said to Him (Jesus),‘I know that Messiah is coming’
(who is called Christ).‘When He comes, He will tell us all things.’
Jesus said to her, ‘I who speak to you AM.’ ” (John 4:25-26)

The Christ = The Son of God
“Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26:63)
“Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” (Mark 14:61)
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16)
“... but these (Jesus’ signs) are written that you may believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing
you may have (eternal) life in His name.” (John 20:31)

From John 17:3, and the other verses above, we see …
1) Jesus shared Father God’s glory “before the world was”
2) God “sent” Jesus Christ
3) One must believe Jesus = Messiah (Christ) = Son of God to have eternal life
4) One must “know” both God and Jesus Christ to have eternal life

How are you coming along with “knowing” both God and Jesus Christ?

God “sent” Jesus to evangelise for 3½ years, and to be “the Savior of the world”.
This Jesus was the Messiah (Christ), the Son of God.
“… He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ ” (Matthew 27:43)

John 5:18
“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

The Jews knew that anyone saying, “God is my Father” or “I am the Son of God”
was claiming to be part of “the Godhead”.

John 10:33-36
“The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You,
but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” …
“(You say,) ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’ ”

 

[WIP]

Is there something you wish to discuss from a theological perspective?

 

[Asyncritus]

John 17:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life
to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

It was laid up in heaven, waiting for Him.

Following are 5 statements made by Jews at the time of Jesus …

The Messiah (Hebrew) = The Christ (English)
“We have found the Messiah (which is translated the Christ)” (John 1:41)
“The woman (a non-Jew) said to Him (Jesus),‘I know that Messiah is coming’
(who is called Christ).‘When He comes, He will tell us all things.’
Jesus said to her, ‘I who speak to you AM.’ ” (John 4:25-26)

Every version I have looked at, says 'I am he'.

Where did you get this from?

The Christ = The Son of God
“Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26:63)
“Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” (Mark 14:61)
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16)
“... but these (Jesus’ signs) are written that you may believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing
you may have (eternal) life in His name.” (John 20:31)

Amen.

From John 17:3, and the other verses above, we see …

1) Jesus shared Father God’s glory “before the world was”

The word 'shared' is misleading, and is not used in any version I've seen.

I believe this is in the same league as:

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In other words, the arrangements have been made from a long time ago.


2) God “sent” Jesus Christ
3) One must believe Jesus = Messiah (Christ) = Son of God to have eternal life
4) One must “know” both God and Jesus Christ to have eternal life

How are you coming along with “knowing” both God and Jesus Christ?

God “sent” Jesus to evangelise for 3½ years, and to be “the Savior of the world”.
This Jesus was the Messiah (Christ), the Son of God.
“… He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ ” (Matthew 27:43)

John 5:18
“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

They are putting the most dangerous possible construction on His words, in order to make the blasphemy charge stick. Jesus now refutes their charge with:

19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.

He says, effectively, the Father is my Teacher. I copy Him.

That is about as clear a denial of equality as you could wish.

He now expands on this thus:

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son also quickeneth whom he will.
22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgement unto the Son;

and so on.

The Jews knew that anyone saying, “God is my Father” or “I am the Son of God”
was claiming to be part of “the Godhead”.

And you are going to keep company with such people now? They are His deadly enemies, John. They're looking for the worst possible, and most dangerous excuse to kill Him. Are you going to join hands with them?

John 10:33-36
“The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” …

Jesus again rejects their charge from scripture, effectively saying, you're talking nonsense:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

[Yes, is it is so written, is their forced reply]

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

[so if THE UNBREAKABLE scripture says YOU are GODS]

36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

[WHAT ARE YOU MOANING ABOUT? I said something far less than that - I said, I am the Son of God. God sanctified me and sent me. So I am His servant: His Son.

Is that what you call blasphemy?]

So

1 The Jews are His hateful enemies

2 They're looking for the worst thing they can say about Him, so they could stone Him for blasphemy.

3 So they're trying to trump up this ridiculous charge, saying that He is making Himself God, so they could stone Him.

4 He makes them look like fools, by rejecting their charge as powerfully as He could, denying their charge by the power of scripture.

Isn't it obvious that He rejects their charge that He is claiming to be God?

So why are you joining them in saying or thinking so?

 

[teddy trueblood]

“Father, .... 3And this is eternal life, that they may know You,

the only true God,and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I thought one of the big rules here was to tell what Bible you're using (unless it's the KJV - - - but it's not).

It seems obvious that John quotes Jesus as declaring that the Father is the only true God. And Jesus, his servant, was sent by the only true God.

“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,

but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.â€

Clearly the Jews here were lying: Jews called God their "Father," e.g, Jews said to Jesus: "...we have one Father, God himself." - John 8:41, NRSV.

Even Isaiah wrote for all Jews to see: "And yet, Yahweh, you are our father; we the clay and you our potter, all of us the work of your hands." - Is. 64:7 NJB.

.

 

[John Zain]

Is there something you wish to discuss from a theological perspective?

There have been complaints and charges against the Trinity concerning this passage,
so I was trying to shed some light on it. At least it's a start.

Sorry, I always forget to state that I am using the NKJV.

 

[John Zain]

Every version I have looked at, says 'I am he'. Where did you get this from?

“Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and
say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you’, and they say to me,
‘What is His name?’, what shall I say to them?â€
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.†And He said,
â€Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ â€
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever,
and this is My memorial to all generations.’ †(Exodus 3:13-15)

In the following 5 verses, there is no “He†after “I AM†in any of the Greek manuscripts.
In many Bibles, the word “He†has been added (presumably for readability).

“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;
for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.†(John 8:24)

“Then Jesus said to them,
‘When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM ...’ †(John 8:28)

“Jesus said to them,
‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ †(John 8:58)

“Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass,
you may believe that I AM.†(John 13:19)
Jesus is referring to His betrayal, which is followed by His death and resurrection.

“Now when He said to them, “I AMâ€, they drew back and fell to the ground.
Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?â€
And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.â€
]Jesus answered, “I have told you that I AM.††(John 18:6-8)[/B]

 

[John Zain]

They are putting the worst possible construction on His words, in order to make the blasphemy charge stick. Jesus now denies their charge with:
19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.
He says, effectively, the Father is my Teacher. I copy Him.
That is about as clear a denial of equality as you could wish.
He now expands on this thus:
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son also quickeneth whom he will.
22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgement unto the Son;

This ties in with Jesus constantly praying to Father God in heaven.
Your verses, and Jesus' praying, are all about His demonstrating how you should live your life,
I.E. "pray without ceasing" to Father God in order to be given your marching orders.
(But, in your case, it's pray to Father God "in the name of Jesus".)

Have you noticed the verses that say the Holy Spirit was present to heal, etc.?
Jesus appeared to be totally dependent upon the Holy Spirit for His spiritual power, etc.
Again, this is demonstrating how we are to live our lives,
I.E. depending on the Holy Spirit to move on our behalf in answer to all of our prayers
(as long as they are in God's will, of course).

Note:
If you had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, you'd understand all of this (and a thousand more things).
So, why not keep asking for it, until you get it.
In '89 or '90, I was discouraged at not receiving it, said to my wife, "I probably won't get it until I'm 93."
I suppose you can guess what year I did receive it.
And to think that some see God as some old mean grouch with no sense of humor.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

We also see that Jesus and the Father are not quite one and the same, due to the scripture in Matthew 24:6 that says "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"

There is a similar passage in Mark also.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

This is also part of my issue with Paul..and why I can't put Paul's words on par with those of Christ. Paul mentions Christ over and over again...but doesn't seem to put the proper emphasis on The Father (unless I am mistaken).

I also feel that Christ's words are Universally true and applicable...whilst Paul wrote in context aboutthings applicable to certain groups of people at a certain time in history. That's why they are harder to understand at times. (A little off subject maybe...but I thought worth mentioning).

 

[Elijah674]

What is your point? Christ was Christ/God in the OT. He became the Son/Man/God in the NT. Are you teaching otherwise? In the NT he was as the second Adam with restrictions as was Adam.

--Elijah

 

[teddy trueblood]

Not 'I AM' - part 1

“Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel
and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you’, and they say
to me, 'What is His name?’, what shall I say to them?”
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He
said, ”Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’ ” (Exodus 3:13-15)

………………………………................

The two main points to be made about Exodus 3:14 in the original Hebrew are: (1) the word sometimes translated “I AM” in English is not the name of God but merely an explanation of the meaning of his only personal name (“Jehovah” - English form; “Yahweh” - possible Hebrew pronunciation), and (2) translating that Hebrew word (ehyeh) as “I Am” is probably incorrect.

You can see the truth of point #1 by carefully examining Ex. 3:13-15. Especially when you see a translation that honestly translates God’s name in Ex. 3:15 as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah” (not “LORD”), ASV; NEB; JB; NJB; Living Bible; Modern Language Bible; Young‘s; The Interlinear Bible; etc. Notice where God used the word “name” in Ex. 3:15 and what it refers to. (Compare Ps. 83:16, 18 - “.... That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.” - King James Version.)

The New Bible Dictionary, Douglas (ed.), 1962, pp. 478, 479, published by Eerdmans, explains it well:
“Strictly speaking, Yahweh [or ‘Jehovah’ in traditional English form] is the only ‘name’ of God .... Elohim [the Hebrew word translated ‘God’ in English] says, ‘this is my name for ever’ (Ex. 3:15). Yahweh [or Jehovah], therefore, in contrast with Elohim [‘God’], is a proper noun, the name of a person .... He [Moses] inquires, ‘when ... the children of Israel ... shall say, what (mah [in Hebrew]) is his name? What shall I say unto them?’ (Ex. 3:13). The normal way to ask a name is to use the [Hebrew] pronoun mî; to use mah invites an answer which goes further, and gives the meaning (‘what?’) or substance of the name.
“This helps to explain the reply, namely, ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said, ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM [ehyeh] hath sent me unto you’ (Ex. 3:14). By this Moses would not think that God was announcing a new name, nor is it called a ‘name’; it is just the inner meaning of the name Moses [and the Israelites already] knew. We have here a play upon words; ‘Yahweh’ is interpreted by ehyeh. M. Buber translates ‘I will be as I will be’ and expounds it as a promise of God’s power and enduring presence with them in the process of deliverance.”
And,
“ Exod. 3 does not appear to give a new name for the first time but the explanation of a name known already but now identified as the saving God of Israel....” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 69, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

In its commentary to Exodus 3:14, the JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition states:

"God's proper name disclosed in the next verse is YHVH …. But here God first tells Moses its meaning; ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, probably best translated as "I will be what I will be" meaning: "My nature will become evident from my actions."

So we see that Moses is really asking at Ex. 3:13, “when the children of Israel shall say ‘what is the meaning [mah] of his name?’ What shall I say to them?” Therefore, what is given in Ex. 3:14 is not his name at all (which they all knew already) but the meaning (or “explanation”) of his personal name “Jehovah.” That name (which even Moses knew at this time - his mother’s name, in fact, at Ex. 6:20, means “Jehovah is glory” according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance) is plainly stated in Ex. 3:15 and obviously is to be known and used as God’s personal name forever by all his true worshipers. Contrast the 7000 times that “Jehovah” is clearly used as God’s name in the scriptures with how many times “I AM” (or ehyeh) is clearly used for God’s name (none)!

 

[teddy trueblood]

Not 'I AM' - part 2


A further difficulty for this trinitarian “proof” comes from the high probability that ehyeh is mistranslated as “I am” (as was pointed out by M. Buber in the New Bible Dictionary quote and the Jewish Study Bible above). I first suspected this when I saw how ehyeh was translated at Ex. 3:14 in the following Bibles: Moffatt’s translation - “I WILL BE”; Byington’s - “I WILL BE”; Rotherham’s - “I WILL BECOME”; New World Translation - “I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” In addition were the following alternate readings in footnotes: American Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; NIV Study Bible - “I WILL BE”; Revised Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; New Revised Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; New English Bible - “I WILL BE”; Revised English Bible - “I WILL BE”; Living Bible - “I WILL BE”; Good News Bible - “I WILL BE.

And even one of the earliest English translations renders it:
14 God saide vnto Moses: I wyl be what I wyll be. And he sayde: Thus shalt thou saye vnto ye children of Israel: I wyl be hath sent me vnto you. - Miles Coverdale Bible (1535).

Notice too what the Encyclopedia Britannica had to say on this subject:
“The writer of Exodus 3:14-15 ... explains it [the meaning of God’s name] by the phrase EHYEH asher EHYEH (Ex. iii., 14); this can be translated ‘I am that I am’ or more exactly ‘I am wont to be that which I am wont to be’ or ‘I will be that which I will be.’” - p. 995, 14th ed., v. 12.

Although it takes some effort to further check out the meaning of ehyeh, it is worth it. With a good Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible you can prove to yourself that ehyeh should be translated “I will be” (or a similar rendering) at Ex. 3:14.

In contrast to the paucity of evidence for an “I am” interpretation of ehyeh you will find that all of the books of Moses (the Pentateuch), including Exodus, of course, and the book of Joshua always use ehyeh to mean “I will be.”

A Hebrew interlinear will back this up.

2 Samuel 7:14
in the annotated list is quoted in the New Testament scriptures at Hebrews 1:5. Notice that when ehyeh (2 Sam. 7:14) was translated into the NT Greek by the inspired Bible writer at Heb. 1:5, he didn’t write ego eimi (“I am”) but ego esomai (“I will be”)! (Esomai is also used at 2 Sam. 7:14 in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek OT,)

Ezekiel 11:20
in the list is also quoted in the NT at Heb. 8:10. Ehyeh in Ezekiel 11:20 is translated as "I will be," of course, and the quoting of this word by the NT writer in Heb. 8:10 is esomai ("I will be") not ego eimi (“I am”). (Ego esomai is used at Ezek. 11:20 in the Septuagint also.)

Conversely, the trinitarian United Bible Societies and trinitarian scholar Delitzsch both translated the Greek “I will be” of Rev. 21:7 into the Hebrew ehyeh. - See their Hebrew New Testaments.

Not only is ehyeh overwhelmingly translated “I will be” instead of “I am,” but in the vast majority of these instances you will find Jehovah speaking and declaring his “power and enduring presence with [his people]” precisely as was explained above in the New Bible Dictionary statement explaining ehyeh at Ex. 3:14 !

End

Any cut-and-paste material is from my own original files. These files which I have originated have also been posted at numerous places on-line at various times over the past 15 years.

 

[teddy trueblood]

In the following 5 verses, there is

no “He” after “I AM” in any of the Greek manuscripts.
In many Bibles, the
word “He” has been added (presumably for
readability).

“Therefore I said to

you that you will die in your sins;
for if
you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your
sins.” (John 8:24)



“Then Jesus said to
them,

‘When you lift up the Son of Man,
then you will know that I AM ...’ ” (John
8:28)


“Jesus said to them,


‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before
Abraham was, I AM.’ ” (John
8:58)


“Now I tell you before it comes,
that when it does come to pass,

you may
believe that I AM.” (John
13:19)

Jesus is
referring to His betrayal, which is followed by His death and
resurrection.


“Now when He said
to them, “I AM”, they drew back and fell to the
ground.

Then He asked them again, “Whom are
you seeking?”

And they said, “Jesus of
Nazareth.”

Jesus answered, “I have told you
that I AM.” ” (John 18:6-8)

It's standard for translators to add words that context requires. For example should the ex-blind man at Jn9:9 really claim the supposed divine 'name' of 'I AM' (ego eimi ). That's what the actual Greek text says. And yet the NASB renders it "I am the one"! "The one" is not in the text.

John 8:18, 24. :18 I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness of me." - NASB. Literally in the Greek text: "I am the bearing witness about myself." Do you really think "he" or 'the one,' etc. should not have been added by so many trinitarian translators here? :24 "...unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." - NASB. This refers back to verse 18 above and correctly has "he" added. Do you truly believe thatJesus was saying "unless you believe Jehovah, you shall die...."?

John 8:28 - "... When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He..." It seems most likely that he is saing "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He (the 'son of man' - the closest antecedent for "He."

John 8:58 - "...Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." - NASB. A note for John 8:58 n this Bible says for "I AM": Or, I have been." There are other trinitarian translations which say "I was," "I existed," "I have existed," etc. Furthermore, would Jesus really have said here:"Before Abraham was born, Jehovah"?? Instead the question is about his existence for an unnatural length of time, so his answer was that he did exist ("I am," "I was," "I have existed," "I have been") all that time.

John 13:19 - "From now on I am telling you before itcomes topass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He." - NASB and most Bibles. Again would Jesus really say "so that ... you may believe that Jehovah."?

John 18:3, 6, 8 John 16:3 shows that the Roman cohort was there. :6 When therefore He said to them, 'I am He,' they [including the Roman cohort a company of Roman soldiers] drew back, and fell to the ground." - NASB. :8 "Jesus answered, I told you that I am He; ..." All of these were in answer to "Whom do you seek?" They answered Him, Jesus the Nazarene." And he answered that question, not with "Jehovah," but with the natural, "I am He" as rendered in most Bibles. The falling back was a demonstration that Jesus could have easaily escaped if he wished.

It has nothing to do with saying "I am He" or the Roman soldiers who wouldn't have known that "I Am" was supposed to mean anything more than it actually does in everyday speech would not have fallen back also.'

Not only Is the 'I Am' (not all translate it with Capitals either in Ex. 3:14 or John 8:58) mistranslated in Ex. 3:14, but it is misinterpreted in these scriptures of the NKJV.

 

[Asyncritus]

This ties in with Jesus constantly praying to Father God in heaven.

If there was this 'equality', then we would expect to find the Father praying to Jesus about 50% of the time. Instead, we find God giving Jesus instruction as to what He should do:

Jn 8.29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
[FONT=&quot]
. “ Then answered Jesus, and said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing by himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for whatever things he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.†(Joh 5:19)

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“ Then said Jesus to them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.†(Joh 8:28 )

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“ Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shown you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?†(Joh 10:32 )

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“ Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not from myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.†(Joh 14:10 )

and so on.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
We NEVER find the Father praying to Jesus - the exact opposite is true. It is ALWAYS Jesus praying to the Father.

Have you noticed the verses that say the Holy Spirit was present to heal, etc.?
Jesus appeared to be totally dependent upon the Holy Spirit for His spiritual power, etc.

This again is absolutely true. The reason for the saying is given here:

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him

In other words, there was no restriction on the Lord's use of the powers of the Holy Spirit: both to speak the words God wanted Him to say, and to heal those God wanted Him to heal.

 

[John Zain]

This is also part of my issue with Paul..and why I can't put Paul's words on par with those of Christ. Paul mentions Christ over and over again...but doesn't seem to put the proper emphasis on The Father (unless I am mistaken).
I also feel that Christ's words are Universally true and applicable...whilst Paul wrote in context about things applicable to certain groups of people at a certain time in history. That's why they are harder to understand at times. (A little off subject maybe...but I thought worth mentioning).

I appreciate your posts. Let's remember that ...

Jesus was preaching ONLY to spiritual idiots, and that even includes the Jewish leaders
(in the OT, God said they were spiritually blind and deaf, and that he would NOT heal them).
The Holy Spirit was not yet sent to replace Jesus, so none got saved (were born again)
... so what was the purpose?

The Jews were given a chance, but the real motive was to have the Scriptures written.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit (later on) would bring to the remembrance of His disciples
all the things He had said.

Paul was preaching ONLY to saved believers in the churches.

There was an enormous difference in the two audiences.
So truly, I see it ridiculous to even expect the same terminology from Jesus and Paul.

 

[John Zain]

Any cut-and-paste material is from my own original files.
These files which I have originated have also been posted
at numerous places on-line at various times over
the past 15 years.

15 years of nonsense.
I suppose you'd also like to bury these additional HINTS of Jesus ...

John 6:35 “I AM the bread of lifeâ€
John 6:51 “I AM the bread of lifeâ€
John 8:12 “I AM the light of the worldâ€
John 10:7 “I AM the door of the sheepâ€
John 10:11 “I AM the good shepherdâ€
John 11:25 “I AM the resurrection and the (eternal) lifeâ€
John 14:6 “I AM the way, the truth, and the (eternal) lifeâ€
John 15:1 “I AM the true vineâ€
Matt 27:43 “I AM the Son of Godâ€

P.S. Jesus' hints are only for God's elect to "see" and recognize.
Not everyone is part of God's elect, so His "I AM" statements
are like His parables ... not understood by these unfortunate ones.

 

[Asyncritus]

15 years of nonsense.
I suppose you'd also like to bury these additional HINTS of Jesus ...

John 6:35 “I AM the bread of lifeâ€
John 6:51 “I AM the bread of lifeâ€
John 8:12 “I AM the light of the worldâ€
John 10:7 “I AM the door of the sheepâ€
John 10:11 “I AM the good shepherdâ€
John 11:25 “I AM the resurrection and the (eternal) lifeâ€
John 14:6 “I AM the way, the truth, and the (eternal) lifeâ€
John 15:1 “I AM the true vineâ€
Matt 27:43 “I AM the Son of Godâ€

P.S. Jesus' hints are only for God's elect to "see" and recognize.
Not everyone is part of God's elect, so His "I AM" statements are like His parables (not understood).

Hey John

It's not like you to get bad-tempered!

How else COULD Jesus say He is the resurrection and the life, without using 'I am'?

Look anywhere in the Bible and you'll find lots of people saying 'I am' something or the other.

Here's 2 of them:

Ge 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Ge 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.


Are they God too?

 

[TheRealTruth777]

Yahweh's name also really means "I am that I am."

I can explain what that means also...it means...My will and actions give and bring eternal life...He who lives forever and ever.

 

[John Zain]

Asincrytus,

Try to get your brain around these facts from Scripture ...
1) Heavenly Heirarchy ... Father (CEO), Son (Administrator), Holy Spirit (Work-horse)
2) Jesus was living in a human body (a condition far below the Father's).
3) Jesus was demonstrating how we should live.

 

[TheRealTruth777]

I appreciate your posts. Let's remember that ...

Jesus was preaching ONLY to spiritual idiots, and that even includes the Jewish leaders
(in the OT, God said they were spiritually blind and deaf, and that he would NOT heal them).
The Holy Spirit was not yet sent to replace Jesus, so none got saved (were born again)
... so what was the purpose?

The Jews were given a chance, but the real motive was to have the Scriptures written.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit (later on) would bring to the remembrance of His disciples
all the things He had said.

Paul was preaching ONLY to saved believers in the churches.

There was an enormous difference in the two audiences.
So truly, I see it ridiculous to even expect the same terminology from Jesus and Paul.

I think you have said it perfectly!

(except that i would add that in some of Christ's parables...I think he wasn't really addressing those particular messages to idiots..but those who had a greater spritual understanding...and so that the idiots wouldn't understand what was being said..and to be able to illustrate to his followers the difference between them)