Researching the troublesome passage John 17:3

[TheRealTruth777]

1) Heavenly Heirarchy ... Father (CEO), Son (Administrator), Holy Spirit (Work-horse)

Kind of reminds me of the 3 branches of our government. Executive, Judicial, and Legislative...sort of.

 

[John Zain]

How else COULD Jesus say He is the resurrection and the life, without using 'I am'?

It is I who am the bread of life.
No one else but I is the bread of life.
Would you like 10 more, 100 perhaps?

 

[John Zain]

I think you have said it perfectly!
(except that i would add that in some of Christ's parables...I think he wasn't really addressing those particular messages to idiots..but those who had a greater spritual understanding...and so that the idiots wouldn't understand what was being said..and to be able to illustrate to his followers the difference between them)

Touche ... to a Real Christian.
Yup, he's alive ... he can really see and hear, etc.

 

[Asyncritus]

Asincrytus,

Try to get your brain around these facts from Scripture ...
1) Heavenly Heirarchy ... Father (CEO), Son (Administrator), Holy Spirit (Work-horse)
2) Jesus was living in a human body (a condition far below the Father's).
3) Jesus was demonstrating how we should live.

Can't complain about that!

It's the equality bit that beats me - but you haven't included that.

 

[jasoncran]

Kind of reminds me of the 3 branches of our government. Executive, Judicial, and Legislative...sort of.

off topic that is what the founding fathers got that from.

 

[Asyncritus]

It is I who am the bread of life.
No one else but I is the bread of life.
Would you like 10 more, 100 perhaps?

Not allowed!

It is I who am the bread of life.

No one else but I is the bread of life.

You're struggling! OK, let's go for 10.

 

[teddy trueblood]

The

ex-blind man at John 9:9 identifies himself (unlike Jesus at 8:58, etc.) as ego eimi - see interlinear.


Paul says at 1 Cor. 15:10 in the literal NT Greek: “I AM WHAT I AM.†This is much closer to what trinitarians want to believe God said at Ex. 3:14 than Jesus’ saying ego eimi at John 8:58. It doesn’t honestly fit with the OT Greek Septuagint version at Exodus 3:14, but neither does John 8:58! (compare Acts 26:29 in an interlinear (ego eimi).Can you imagine Paul saying (or even implying): “I am Jehovah God� Obviously, then, saying “I am†was not understood as using the Most High God’s exclusive name (or title). It certainly did not mean that the person using that common phrase was claiming to be God!

Isaiah (or the Hebrew scholars who translated the Septuagint) could not possibly understand it that way (Is. 6:8 - “Behold, I AM [ego eimi, Septuagint]. Send me.â€). King David certainly didn’t understand it that way (“Behold, I AM [ego eimi]. Let him do to me according to that which is good in his eyes.â€) - Septuagint, 2 Ki. 15:26 (compare 2 Sam. 15:26 in modern Bibles).

To show Saint Augustine’s conception of the modern-day “I AM†we can look to p. 41 of On the Two Cities where Augustine says about himself:
“I am most certain that I AM [‘absolute’], that I know it, and that I delight in it.†And, “certainly I am not deceived in this knowledge that I AM [‘absolute’].†- On the Two Cities - Selections from The City of God, F. W. Strothmann (ed.), Frederick Ungar Publishing Co., New York, 1957. [Emphasis mine – Ted]

None of the earliest Christian writers (even up to, and including, super-trinitarians Athanasius and Augustine of the fourth and fifth centuries) when discussing John 8:58 taught that the ego eimi of that verse meant any more than existence. None of them considered it to be a title or name of God (or of Jesus, for that matter)! Even when trinitarians, such as Athanasius, began to come on the scene (late 3rd century or early 4th century), they still used John 8:58 only as evidence of Christ’s earlier existence. - e.g., Origen, p. 643, Vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson. ​

“I AM†simply could not have been understood by the Bible writers as a designation for God!

 

[teddy trueblood]

John Z.

There are hundreds (if not thousands of uses of ego eimi) in the Septuagint OT. This Greek translation of the Hebrew was made around 200 B.C.

Here are a very few of them - notice who it is that speaks those words.

Genesis
4:9; 23:4; 24:24,34; 27:32; 30:2; 31:38 (rendered "I have been"); 31:41 ("I have been"); 45:3, 4; 50:19.

Judges
5:3 (twice); 6:15, 18; 8:5; 11:27, 35, 37; 16:17 ("I have been"); 19:18

If you would like I can refer you to an online Septuagint.

 

[theLords]

A Christian Response to Jehovah's Witness Doctrine
​

John 8:58 and 10:30-33, "I am."

Jesus said in John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I am." This is a very important verse to Trinitarians because it is one of the places we use to show that Jesus is God. We maintain that Jesus attributed the divine name of God ("I AM" from Exodus 3:14), to Himself. But this verse alone may not be sufficient to prove His deity. There are a combination of other verses that contribute to the doctrine. Nevertheless, there are many non-Christian groups that deny that Jesus is God. Therefore, when they come to this verse, it must be dealt with. The reason is simple. If Jesus did say, "I am", it would give strong evidence that Jesus was claiming to be God.
This paper will not attempt to analyze the Greek translation principles that have lead various Bibles to render John 8:58 as, "I have been," or "I was in existence," etc. Suffice it to say that the best recognized translations which have sought literal renderings of the text, have translated the verse as "I am": NASB, NIV, KJV, RSV, etc.
The Jehovah's Witness Watchtower organization claims that the best translation of John 8:58 is "Before Abraham was, I have been." Notice that they do not have it say, "I am." Is it legitimate for the Watchtower organization to insist that John 8:58 is best translated as "I have been"? Let's take a look.
Ego Eimi means "I am"

In Greek, the words recorded in John 8:58 are "'prin abraam genesthai ego eimi." Literally, this is "Before Abraham was existing, I am." "Ego eimi" is literally, "I am." This is the present tense. To say "I have been" is to use the perfect tense. In Greek, his would have been "aemane." But Jesus didn't use it here. He used the present tense, "ego eimi" which is "I am."
There are places, however, in the New Testament where the Greek present tense of 'ego eimi', "I am", can be translated into the English perfect tense, "I have been." An example of this is John 14:9 where Jesus says, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me..." In this verse, "Have I been" is originally the Greek present tense, 'ego eimi'. But here, Jesus was answering the statement in verse 8, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Since in English it is awkward to say, "I am with you so long and you still don't know me....?", it is then rendered as, "Have I been with you so long and you have not come to know me....?" The translation of the Greek present into the English perfect tense is perfectly justifiable here because it doesn't make sense in English. But is it the case with John 8:58? Must it be translated as "I have been"? No. There is no linguistic requirement to translate it as "I have been" particularly when you notice that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus after he said, "ego eimi."
Two Views

Some say that the reason the Jews wanted to kill Jesus after He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" is because it was the last straw in a series of difficult and insulting things Jesus had been saying to the Jews in John chapter 8. Others say that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for saying "Before Abraham was, I am," because "I am" is close to God saying "I am that I am" in Exodus 3:14. In other words, we can make the case that for Jesus to say, "Before Abraham was, I am" was equivalent to claiming God's name for Himself. This is something the Jews would absolutely protest. Let's look at the arguments:
The first argument states that Jesus had upset the Jews so much by what He had been saying that when he finally made his statement in verse 58, it was the last straw, the Jews snapped, and then they tried to kill him. But, they maintain, it wasn't because Jesus was claiming the divine title. They had just had enough.
What had Jesus been saying? Following is a list of some key statements by Jesus in chapter 8.

• "I am the light of the world" (8:12)
• "I am He who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of me" (8:18).
• "You don't know me or my Father" (8:19).
• "You are from below, I am from above" (8:23).
• "Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins" (8:24).
• "The things which I heard from Him [God the Father], these I speak to the world" (8:26).
• "I speak these things as the Father taught me" (8:28).
• "I always do the things that are pleasing to Him" (8:29).
• "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father. . ." (8:38).
• ". . . you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God, this Abraham did not do" (8:40).
• ". . . I proceeded forth and have come from God. . ." (8:42).
• "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death" (8:51).
• "It is my Father who glorifies Me..." (8:54).
• "Before Abraham was, I am" (8:58).

The preceding list has many profound statements. It is perfectly understandable that the Jews would be upset. But, it was Jesus' statement in 8:58 that triggered their murderous attempt. Was it because Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I have been" or "Before Abraham was, I am." Which would be the phrase most likely to be the last straw for the Jews? It is quite possible that either statement would be sufficient. But, of course, any claim by Jesus to the divine name would be a stronger motivation for the Jews to kill Him.
Also, notice statements 1, 5, 11, and 14. These are clear declarations by Jesus where He exalts Himself to heavenly level. The Jews could easily see this and would protest, particularly when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am. Since He did say, in Greek, "I am", it is more likely that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy. Consider Leviticus 24:16 which says, 'Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him" (NASB).
The Connection with John 10:30-33

Capital punishment was only for serious sins: blasphemy, adultery, etc.. From what I can see in the Bible, saying you had a preexistence isn't blasphemy. However, claiming to be one with God is quite different. In John 10:30-33 Jesus said, "I and the Father are one. The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" 33"The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (NASB).
Between John 8:59 where the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus and John 10:30-33 where they again picked up stones to kill him, there is no mention of stoning whatsoever. John 10:31 is referencing back to John 8:59 when it says "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Note that they again wanted to kill Him and this time they give the reason why. They said that Jesus was claiming to be God. Now, where would they get that idea? Could it have been where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am"? Could it be from where Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (10:30). Since they wanted to kill Him both times, it would seem that Jesus had been making some very serious claims. Or was it simply that the Pharisees misunderstood Jesus and that Jesus never did claim to be God?
But, if Jesus was not claiming to be God in John 8:58 and 10:30, then what was it that He said that warranted such a violent response from the Jews in both cases? What phrase from Jesus did the Jews react to and what 'misunderstanding' did they have about what it was Jesus said that led them to claim that he was making Himself out to be God?
In my opinion, the best explanation for the Jews wanting to kill Jesus is because Jesus was claiming equality with God. They considered this blasphemy. The cults, like the bad religious leaders who opposed Jesus, deny who Jesus really is as well.

John 8:58 and 10:30-33, "I am." | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/john-858-and-1030-33-i-am

 

[theLords]

"I AM"​

In Greek, "ego eimi" means, "I AM." When Moses asked God His name, He said, "'I AM who I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" (Ex. 3:14)

Jesus continually called Himself "I AM" (ego eimi) throughout His ministry, which pointed to His deity. This is why the Jehovah's Witness New World Translation mistranslates ego eimi in John 8:58. The correct translation is "before Abraham was born, I AM (ego eimi)." The NWT purposely mistranslates it to "I have been" because they don't want Jehovah's Witnesses to see Jesus' claim of deity.

To be consistent, the New World Translation should have translated "ego eimi" as "I have been" in all other places where it appears. As you can see for the examples below, they translate ego eimi as I AM in all verses except John 8:58.

John 6:48-"I AM (ego eimi) the bread of life."
John 6:51-"I AM (ego eimi) the living bread that came down from heaven…"
John 8:12-"I Am (ego eimi) the light of the world…"
John 8:24-"For if you do not believe that I AM (ego eimi) he ('he' is added by NWT but isn't in the Greek manuscripts), you will die in your sins."
John 10:7-"I AM (ego eimi) the door of the sheep."
John 10:9-"I AM (ego eimi) the door…"
John 10:11-"I AM (ego eimi) the fine shepherd…"
John 10:14-"I AM (ego eimi) the fine shepherd…"
John 11:25-"I AM (ego eimi) the resurrection and the life."
John 14:6-"I AM (ego eimi) the way and the truth and the life."
John 15:1-"I AM (ego eimi) the true vine…"
John 18:5-"He said to them, I AM (ego eimi) he." ('he' is added by NWT but isn't in the Greek manuscripts).
John 8:58-"Before Abraham came into existence, I have been (ego eimi)."

BIBLE STUDY

http://kentcrockett.com/biblestudies/I%20AM.htm

J.W. Claim: JESUS IS NOT THE "I AM"

The J.W. Bible has altered John 8:58 to read " I have been," robbing Jesus of His Divine title.

Christian Answer: JESUS IS THE "I AM"

John 8:58 is a direct quote from Exodus 3:14. The Greek reads "ego eimi", "I AM" Jehovah's Witnesses even invented a new Greek tense to do away with this verse, called the "perfect indefinite tense". When informed of the nonexistence of this tense in ANY language, they stated the tense was really "the perfect tense indicative." This is also impossible for the verb "to be" from which "I AM" is taken. Any Greek student can tell a Jehovah's Witness that "ego eimi" is in the present tense, and Jesus meant what He said-- He is the "I AM'. just as Jehovah is the "I AM". (see Greek side K.I.T.pg.451, 1985 ed.)

It is a serious matter to deny Jesus is the "I AM", for Jesus Himself said in John 8:24,

"Unless you believe that I AM you shall die in your sins."


http://www.searchingthescriptures.n...ses/jehovahs_witnesses_and_the_real_jesus.htm

http://www.searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/jehovahs%20witnesses/jehovahs_witnesses_and_the_real_jesus.htm