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Bible Study Resurrection not Immortality: The Blessed Hope

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When we look at the NT, we see that eternal life was wrapped around the concept of resurrection. Unfortunately, the immortality of the soul slipped into Christian thought and diluted the importance Paul placed on resurrection as the hope of eternal life. Many will say that the two are compatible. However, when we look at the biblical evidence and study it exegetically, we see that this is not so.

We see that Paul preached the resurrection to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were pagan Greeks and Romans who believed that the soul was immortal. As a matter of fact, we see that Paul was mocked by many Gentiles for preaching resurrection. Why? Because the Greeks believed in the immortality of the soul! A resurrection was useless. Yet the fact that in the face of this belief, Paul emphasized the necessity of the resurrection for eternal life in such blatant terms shows that this was in contrast to the immortality of the soul, not a condoning of the belief.

To explain away some of the conditional mortality texts that show that man does not have an immortal soul,many will say that when the bible talks about mortality, it is merely speaking about the body; the soul, however, is eternal. The Bible, however, makes no distinction. Rather we see in the NT how important the resurrection was to Paul for eternal life for the Christian. For Paul and the NT Christians, there was no ‘body/soul reunification’. It was the whole man that either lived or died.

If after the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me if the dead rise not? Let us eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! – 1 Corinthians 15:32

Paul is saying that if there is no resurrection, then we might as well live life in excess for there is no existence after life!

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen...for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised...And if Christ is not raised your faith is in vain...Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished – 1 Corinthians 15:13,16-18

Those that have fallen asleep in Christ have not perished if they exist in some form in heaven already. If this is merely talking about the body, then we have a God who might allow the death of the soul because it is dependent on the body. This is completely redundant for the survival of the soul to begin with if it is dependent on the body for life.

We see how our hope in eternal life is wrapped up in the resurrection and the resurrection of Christ. One precedes the other and without the one, the other would not exist and there is no hope:

But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep. That you sorrow not even as them which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus God will raise them up in the same manner. For the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ will rise first. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

If souls went to heaven at death, why would Paul tell them to not "sorrow as those who have no hope" and then continue to tell them about the resurrection? The reason is because the resurrection is our ONLY hope. Without it, there would be no eternal life but eternal death. Without the resurrection, all those Christians would perish and there would be no hope. We see that there is no room for a disembodied soul that survives death in this theology.

But now Christ is risen and has become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive – 1 Corinthians 15: 20-22

So when does this ‘being made alive’, this ‘eternal life’ occur? Is it at death?

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming - vs 23

Notice when Paul expected to receive his reward:

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. Henceforth, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge shall give me at that day. And not to me only, but unto them also that love His appearing - II Timothy 4:6,8

This is the same resurrection day spoken of by Job in Job 14:14, as the next verse will corroborate.

This then culminates in vs 51-56 which shows that death is conquered only at the resurrection and immortality is finally given.

Behold I show you a mystery! We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory! O death where is your sting? O grave where is thy victory? –I Corinthians 15:51-56

To take this verse to mean that Paul is only talking about the body and not the soul is to not only read in an unproven assumption the text doesn’t make, but to also ignore the context and importance of the previous verses. ONLY at the resurrection is death conquered. ‘THEN shall be brought to pass the saying, ‘death is swallowed up in victory’’. If souls survived death, then death is swallowed up in victory at the time of death and not at the resurrection. Paul is not speaking of two lives and two deaths, but rather one body and one life and one death. Notice his language describing the whole of man - ‘this mortal’. You absolutely cannot get the idea that only the body is being spoken about here. To Paul, like the rest of those in the scriptures, man was a wholistic being, not a dualistic one.
 
Luther and Tyndale

Look at what Luther and Tyndale believed on this topic:


Martin Luther - Translator of the Bible into German; beginner of the Protestant Reformation

However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithfulâ€â€such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god;that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretalsâ€â€in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish.â€â€Martin Luther, Assertio Omnium Articulorum M. Lutheri per Bullam Leonis X. Novissimam Damnatorum (Assertion of all the articles of M. Luther condemned by the latest Bull of Leo X), article 27,

We should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the clouds . . . Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is, had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceded them in death.â€â€A Compend of Luther's Theology, edited by Hugh Thomson Ker, Jr., p. 242.

William Tyndale -Translator of the Bible into English, reformer

And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be) And then what cause is there of the resurrection?â€â€William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.â€â€lbid., p. 180.

And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;" there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.â€â€Ibid., p. 118.

We see that even some of the reformers saw the foolishness of the immortal soul which ws nothing more than pagan philosophies which completely do away with any logical reason for having the resurrection.
 
Very interesting. I would agree that the continuity of our souls depends solely upon God; our souls are not, of their own accord, immortal.

Say, what would your response be to passages such as Revelation 6:9-11 or the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus--passages in which, after death, the soul appears to be conscious, awake, and coherent?
 
I'm sure no one will dispute the fact that the Christian hope lies in the resurrection. But unless I am misunderstanding you, I get the impression that you are advocating a "soul death"; the soul dies along with the body at death, and there is no consciousness at death. If I'm understanding you correctly, then I'll have to disagree with you.

Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

The keyword in the above passage is "today." Today the criminal will be with Jesus in paradise. Is the grave paradise?

1 Peter 3:18-19 - "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

Why would Jesus preach to spirits if they're "dead" and unable to listen?

2 Corinthians 5:6, 8- "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord....

...We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."


How can we be away from our body if, according to your ideas, body and soul die at physical death?

Matthew 17:1-4 - The transfiguration.

How could Moses be talking with Jesus if, according to your ideas, Moses' soul had already died?


Things to think about.
 
Vice said:
I'm sure no one will dispute the fact that the Christian hope lies in the resurrection. But unless I am misunderstanding you, I get the impression that you are advocating a "soul death"; the soul dies along with the body at death, and there is no consciousness at death. If I'm understanding you correctly, then I'll have to disagree with you.

The resurrection (as Tyndale points out from my quote) is redundant and insignificant to eternal life (as Paul emphasises in 1 Corinthians 15) if the soul goes to heaven at death. As Luther says, (And I am paraphrasing here) "It is a fool of a soul that needs its body". I encourage you to look at my thread in this forum about what the 'soul' truly is. The soul is nothing more than the 'life' or 'whole man'. When man (a soul) dies, he is unconscious until the resurrection when the life breath (spirit) is breathed back into him.

Vice said:
Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." The keyword in the above passage is "today." Today the criminal will be with Jesus in paradise. Is the grave paradise?

The problem with this is that it contradicts a few things and brings out some problems:

1) Christ did not go to heaven at death but rested in the grave as He promised. He told Mary not to touch Him for "I have not yet ascended to my Father"
2) The criminals words are interesting "Remember me when thou come into thy kingdom", "Not save me when I die so I may be in paradise with you". We see that the second coming is when Christ truly 'comes' into His kingdom.
3) This is contradicted by the Scriptures that say man is asleep until the resurrection.
4) There is no scriptural proof that Christ went anywhere but the grave before His resurrection

The problem here is that there is no punctuation in the original Greek. The comma should have been placed after today, not before. Throughout the scripture the phrase, "I say unto today..." and "Verily I say this day....." is used when people are speaking. You will find numerous references to this way of talking to show importance right then to say what was needed to say. The language being used in this case follows that format. It actually doesn't make any sense from a biblical structure point of view to have the comma after today.

Christ was saying "I say unto you this day, you will be with me in paradise" The translators were already influenced by the immortality of the soul doctrine and I believe 'unintentionally' placed the comma before rather than after the word 'today'.

Vice said:
1 Peter 3:18-19 - "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison."

See this thread starting from my post on this page and the arguments following it until the end of the thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 6&start=15

Vice said:
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8- "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

At first glance, it would seem that Paul is talking about the soul going to heaven right at death. However, if you look at the other verses preceding it (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) we see that Paul speaks about an "unclothed" state that he desires not to be found in. This unclothed state is the intermediate period of death that he desires to bypass before he is clothed in immortality. His desire is to not see death, but to go straight to heaven (like Elijah and Enoch). Keep in mind that his 'desire' is not necessarily the reality or the way things work. My desire might be to be rich but the facts point out that I'm probably not going to be.

Secondly, to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord does not take into account that there is no time factor in the grave. Luther brings this out in the quotes I gave of him. When you die, the next thing you will see is the face of Jesus. Paul states quite frankly in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 when this "unclothed" state is done away with and immortality is assured. (see also 2nd Timothy 4:6-8 where Paul speaks about his departure being at hand and then says that it will occur at the last day for all people which cross references to 1 Corinthians 15:23 and John 6:40)

Vice said:
Matthew 17:1-4 - The transfiguration.
How could Moses be talking with Jesus if, according to your ideas, Moses' soul had already died?

Elijah was taken to heaven by a fiery chariot. He did not see death. What about Moses? Didn't he die? Yes, he did. But notice that in Jude 6, in mentions that Michael and Satan fought over Moses' body. No other saint is given this special recognition after his death. Despite the fact that God didn't allow Moses to go into Canaan, He still rewarded His faithful servant by taking Him to heaven. Isn't it interesting that out of ALL the saints that could be standing by Christ, it is Elijah and Moses? Not Abraham, Jacob or Isaac. Not David, Noah or Ruth. The only two saints (maybe other than Enoch) who's heavenly whereabouts can be explained are the ones who happen to be there. I think that says something.

As a matter of fact, we can see this in another way. Both of these saints represented the two types of people at the end. Those whom will not see death but be translated (Elijah), and those that die and are resurrected (Moses). I think their standing by Christ gives symbolic importance as to what Christ was on the earth for and what He would eventually be accomplishing by His death and resurrection.
 
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