Righteousness

[Guest]

A discussion of righteousness came up in the discussion on purgatory, and I felt it needed to be given it's own thread.

Righteousness is not something that we earn on our own merits, through our own works, or through a time of pentance in purgatory.

Righteousness is given to us through the Cross of Christ on the basis of faith.

Phil. 3:7-11

 

[AVBunyan]

Thanks aLonevoice - nice topic...

May I take this a step further - we we not just given Christ's righteousness....we were made righteous...

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God bless 8-)

 

[Veritas]

:D
We were given Christ's righteousness...made righteous...and because of righteousness, life ensues...

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

 

[biblecatholic]

A discussion of righteousness came up in the discussion on purgatory, and I felt it needed to be given it's own thread.
Righteousness is not something that we earn on our own merits, through our own works, or through a time of pentance in purgatory.
Righteousness is given to us through the Cross of Christ on the basis of faith.
Phil. 3:7-11

an act of faith(which is a work)is required for righteousness? but you said we can do nothing to receive this


we say that you are saved by grace through faith and works. one might say that you are saved by grace alone, since faith and works are only done by grace. the church recognizes that verses say that you are saved by faith, there are also verses that say one is saved by faith and works then others which say works. we take the position that both are required.(james 2:20,2:14-18, gal 5:6,rom2:13)the bible also says love is required.
galations 5 is talking to those who have accepted Jesus as Lord, but st paul is saying they can walk away from that grace and there is a verse about righteousnessgal 5:5 For through the Spirit,by faith,we wait for the hope of righteousness.

matt 6:33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well....the original meaning here means go on seeking

rom 2:6-8 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

if you have to make an act of faith in Jesus to be saved that in itself is a work that is done for salvation. so you have to say that at least 1 work is required to be saved.that is also saying we are judged on what we know

james 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. .............this is the only place in the entire bible where FAITH and ALONE are together

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.(they had faith but not saved they were thrown away and burned because they were not fruitful)

we must also forgive others sins in order to be forgiven. so its more than just faith its the entirety

 

[Guest]

The Question then is: Where does one receive faith?

I would say that God is the author, sustainer, and bestower of faith.

Therefore, no work is done on our part.

God has done everything! Praise God!

 

[Rick W]

Faith a work?
Can I say, "I'm going to have faith today" and I then have faith? If that's the kind of faith I rely on then it won't take much to destroy it. That faith is of the mind and the mind wants to think in a logical manner, it wants to make sense of what information it receives. Opposition to a "head belief" can dissuade the mind from adhering to that sort of faith.
There is no logic to the faith from the heart. There is no logic to hope when in the face of all odds and logic that hope still survives. If the faith one professes is a work it's not a faith felt from a genuinely believing heart.

Nor can I say, "I'm going to love her" and love her. Nor will I love her if I go through the outward motions that genuine love generates. If I give flowers, remember Valentine's day, say I love you, hold hands and all the other "signs" of love that doesn't mean I love her. However, if I do genuinely love her I'll give flowers, remember Valentine's day, say I love you, hold hands and all the other "signs" of love because I do indeed love her.
Jesus says if you love me you'll do my commandments. That does NOT mean that if you do them you will love Him. It means that if you love Him you will do them because the love is there in the first place. I honestly believe He said this as a sign that one does indeed love Him. If you love Him you will do them, not the other way around.

 

[Fnerb]

The Question then is: Where does one receive faith?

I would say that God is the author, sustainer, and bestower of faith.

Therefore, no work is done on our part.

God has done everything! Praise God!

I completely agree 100%.

Faith is a miracle that God works within us.

 

[Solo]

an act of faith(which is a work)is required for righteousness? but you said we can do nothing to receive this


we say that you are saved by grace through faith and works. one might say that you are saved by grace alone, since faith and works are only done by grace. the church recognizes that verses say that you are saved by faith, there are also verses that say one is saved by faith and works then others which say works. we take the position that both are required.(james 2:20,2:14-18, gal 5:6,rom2:13)the bible also says love is required.
galations 5 is talking to those who have accepted Jesus as Lord, but st paul is saying they can walk away from that grace and there is a verse about righteousnessgal 5:5 For through the Spirit,by faith,we wait for the hope of righteousness.

matt 6:33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well....the original meaning here means go on seeking

rom 2:6-8 God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

if you have to make an act of faith in Jesus to be saved that in itself is a work that is done for salvation. so you have to say that at least 1 work is required to be saved.that is also saying we are judged on what we know

james 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. .............this is the only place in the entire bible where FAITH and ALONE are together

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.(they had faith but not saved they were thrown away and burned because they were not fruitful)

we must also forgive others sins in order to be forgiven. so its more than just faith its the entirety

What you fail to understand is that works of any kind do not save a person at all. Without being saved there are no good works. James does not say that one is saved by works and faith. James says that one who does not have works does not have faith. In other words if one does not have God's works in ones life, he/she is not saved.

The Scriptures are very clear that one is not save by works at all. If your church teaches that you are save by works and faith, then your church is teaching false doctrine. I am assuming that by the pronoun that you use, "we", that you are referring to your "church" in this statement, "we say that you are saved by grace through faith and works."

The Scripture teaches that you are saved through faith; not of anything that you do as salvation is a gift from God; and that salvation is not of works so that man cannot boast of having achieved salvation by his works. The faith that brings one into the Kingdom of God is not works. After one is born into the Kingdom of God through faith, then is able to perform the works of God, good works. Until then, all that one can do is works of the flesh for he/she is not born again. After we are born again through the faith given us by God, the free gift, we are then to walk in good works which are created in Christ Jesus, for we are Jesus' workmanship.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Guest]

Righteousness is given to us through the Cross of Christ on the basis of faith.

Heres something I never understood and always wanted to ask.

Lets take bill gates, a known atheist and one hell of a philanthopist (BILLIONS of his own dollars and hundreds of hours of his time are spent on charity).

Jeffery Dahmer suduced, raped, cut up and ate young boys, but beleives in Jesus.

Who gets to go to heaven?

 

[biblecatholic]

i said in my last post.

"we are saved by grace alone" because faith and works are only done by grace

.......

maybe i should give a definition of a "work" so people dont confuse it

james 1:22-27-Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says(if you do what it says like follow Jesus for example this would be a work). 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing itâ€â€he will be blessed in what he does. 26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless(you cant just have faith). 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

"works" = putting religion(faith)into action ie"works"

salvation is achieved by God and God alone. He gives you a check by his grace(if you dont reject the gift) it gets cashed. if you reject it ,you did not act.that grace was still there because He died for all.so participation in grace is required you must cash the free check. catholics and mainline protestantism are pretty close on this issue it is just worded different
also if you cash the check waste it all and dont comeback you've rejected God. now if you waste it repent and come back then you get a new one.

 

[Rick W]

Works are not to our credit.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The works we do are His works, not ours. What can we do that the Lord cannot? We surrender our lives to Him, our life is no longer our own. We become the bondslave of Christ, the master, sold to Him, bought at a price. It's His will we do, not ours. The works we do display the love within our hearts. Besides, how can we have faith and NOT do the works?

If I love someone will I not try to please them? And if I don't try to please them then I seriously doubt I love them. Again, the works we do are not of ourselves anyway.

 

[biblecatholic]

Heres something I never understood and always wanted to ask.

Lets take bill gates, a known atheist and one hell of a philanthopist (BILLIONS of his own dollars and hundreds of hours of his time are spent on charity).

Jeffery Dahmer suduced, raped, cut up and ate young boys, but beleives in Jesus.Who gets to go to heaven?

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

CuriousAgnostic, i wanted to comment about what you've said. its going to get a lot of heat from some of the protestants here. can Jesus save someone who doesnt know Him? the answer is yes He can if He wants to. with dahmer, it is possible that he could go to heaven if he repented and confessed his sins. one must do this after he sins.

as far as bill gates. i dont know if he lives by the law of God written on his heart. i dont know what he stands for. he does do a lot of Gods work, by helping all those he helps. what we do know by his love he brings Jesus to more people by his actions in some areas of life than many believers. (not saying that he does this often, cause i dont know) i dont know. i do believe that some people who never had the oppertunity to know Christ, will be saved. what about some one who only met racist christians, did they have a chance to know Christ? how could they? i know of a guy who is buddist, he believes in the exact morality as Christ teaches(not sure if that is orthodox) and he treates his fellow man in a way Christ would be proud,so many of Christs so called believers are materialistic(worship of a false God) gluttinous(eating of other indulgences)and the list is endless.they are Christians but they worship self ,these are the things that many christians say are ok. Christ wanted us to empty ourselves and follow Him.

i ask you in your search for who God is. that you ask Him"hey if you're up there let me know you" He will not refuse.
i also ask you to read this former agnostic convert story it might be interesting to you http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/s3.htm.

may God richly bless you and lead you to know Him

 

[Fnerb]

Heres something I never understood and always wanted to ask.

Lets take bill gates, a known atheist and one hell of a philanthopist (BILLIONS of his own dollars and hundreds of hours of his time are spent on charity).

Jeffery Dahmer suduced, raped, cut up and ate young boys, but beleives in Jesus.

Who gets to go to heaven?

I can see into neither mans heart. As far as Jeffery Dahmer is concerned he may very well be in heaven. Jesus was crucified with two criminals on each side of him.

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

As for Bill gates...

26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (Matthew 16:26).

 

[biblecatholic]

Works are not to our credit.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


The works we do are His works, not ours. What can we do that the Lord cannot? We surrender our lives to Him, our life is no longer our own. We become the bondslave of Christ, the master, sold to Him, bought at a price. It's His will we do, not ours. The works we do display the love within our hearts. Besides, how can we have faith and NOT do the works?

If I love someone will I not try to please them? And if I don't try to please them then I seriously doubt I love them. Again, the works we do are not of ourselves anyway.

true, like i said, everything we do is because of grace. grace gives us faith and works, and faith and works are required like the scriptures say.we can reject grace. its not like we accept Jesus adn now we do no wrong we love Him and never disobey. if we love Him we keep the commandments. i dont know about you. but most people break at least 1 a day. and if we do were we loving Him at that moment............

but what about what what he also says that there are some who will be broken off. which means they were attached(saved). they were not fruitful so they were broken off and thrown in to the fire. so to the one who knows and follows truth and falls away and or does not bear fruit you are cast off. satan also knew the truth and followed the truth. then he decided not to. as can some one who is saved then at a later date rejects it

we love Jesus in the capacity that we are able to love Him, how open we are. not everyones love is as deep. it grows and needs to grow. so ten years from now we love Him more and do more through him and for Him because we love Him much more have accepted that grace

 

[golfjack]

reply

Biblecatholic, First of all, I am not a Protestant. I am a Born-again, Spirit-filled Christian or I can simply say I am a Christian.

I don't know whether Bill Gates is a Christian or not, but I will tell you what Jesus said in Mark 7:21-23: For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wicknedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

You see, the trouble is in the heart, the inwardman, the spirit. Merely to reform the outward man or the outward life will not save you.

An artist could put a beautifully colored coating of wax on the outside of a rotten apple, but the apple would still be rotten at heart. One bite into it would be a bite into decay.

Out of Christ, every man is rotten in the heart. And mere outward correctness of life, apart from Christ, is artificial and the practice of hypocrates. And if this is what Jesus said of those He called hypocrites, for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleaness. ( Matt. 23:27) This is why man must be born again.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[biblecatholic]

Re: reply

Biblecatholic,

First of all, I am not a Protestant. I am a Born-again, Spirit-filled Christian or I can simply say I am a Christian.

not to try and start an agruement but you are protestant(protesting catholic) all who have accepted Christ are christians. so yes you are a christian. but a a christian from the protestant tradition.
[quote:0a5e6]
I don't know whether Bill Gates is a Christian or not, but I will tell you what Jesus said in Mark 7:21-23: For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wicknedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. Amen. i agree with that. so when we(christians) do evil its from within

You see, the trouble is in the heart, the inwardman, the spirit. Merely to reform the outward man or the outward life will not save you.

An artist could put a beautifully colored coating of wax on the outside of a rotten apple, but the apple would still be rotten at heart. One bite into it would be a bite into decay.

Amen. thats why its not enough to just have faith as the bible tells us He will break us from the main vine and throw us in the fire if we bear no fruit.we must love

Out of Christ, every man is rotten in the heart. And mere outward correctness of life, apart from Christ, is artificial and the practice of hypocrates. And if this is what Jesus said of those He called hypocrites, for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleaness. ( Matt. 23:27) This is why man must be born again.

love is only from God so one can only love if they are open to God in that aspect. some may have a good heart without knowing who Christ is.again i say Amen if you do things out of love they dont come from the outside they come from the inside

. you must be born again

[/quote:0a5e6]. does Christs mercy cover the person who never had the oppertunity to know Him especially if one who is born again turned them away by them now acting in a Christlike manner. i think so. not all but im sure there are exceptions.....the difference is that you think its a one time deal. it requires you to love Him. and loving Him is doing His will and keeping His commandments. after being born again you can push Him away by ignoring Him and not loving Him as much as you're capable. you have a responsibility to grow more in love with Him..... remember if we are lukewarm we are spit out

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

I have been reading these post and just chilling but this quote of yours is throwing up red flags....Lets look at it closely...Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

again i say Amen if you do things out of love they dont come from the outside they come from the inside. you must be born again. the difference is that you think its a one time deal. it requires you to love Him. and loving Him is doing His will and keeping His commandments. after being born again you can push Him away by ignoring Him and not loving Him as much as you're capable

again i say Amen if you do things out of love they dont come from the outside they come from the inside. you must be born again. the difference is that you think its a one time deal.

Are you saying that we can be born again multiple times? If this is what your saying. please provide book chapter and verse....

it requires you to love Him. and loving Him is doing His will and keeping His commandments.

...Now if this is not works, then what is it...In this context, what your saying is if we want to keep our ''born again status'' we must work at it.....

after being born again you can push Him away by ignoring Him and not loving Him as much as you're capable

...I actually agree with this, but even when we are unfaithful, ''he'' remains faithful and he will never leave us or forsake us......

 

[biblecatholic]

Re: reply

I have been reading these post and just chilling but this quote of yours is throwing up red flags....Lets look at it closely...Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

im sorry i didn't mean to send a confusing message. my comments were directed at once saved always saved. i didn't mean for it to sound like i think you are born again all the time. what i was saying was that we become born again. then we are required to live for Him. it doesn't stop at im born again and im not required to love Him or im not required to act or it doesn't matter what i do.

faith and works are only done by grace. both are required. the act of faith is a work, the act of love is a work.a work is faith in action. as it says in james. i think we agree on this? im not always the best at writing if im in a hurry. its kinda like a.d.d. writing. the post about luther on the other tread is something that i would agree with a good bit of it. the luthern church and catholic church came together on this issue and made a joint declaration of agreement in the past couple years and we pretty much just word it differently

 

[golfjack]

reply

It really amazes me how Catholic's and others confuse the doctriine of salvation. The answers are found in the Word of God. What does righteousnness mean? It simply means right standing with God. God has offered all mankind grace ( unmerrited favor). But it is up to us to respond by using faith ( believe). What must we do to believe? We must confess with our mouths to accept God's pardon for us. We must believe ( completely trust) that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again on the third day, and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. Pretty simple, Huh? The Bible says that faith without works is dead. Well, it certainlly is dead. You see, if one doesn't reply to God's grace with a faith that can save one, then faith is dead.

Let's look at 1 John 3:9: How can God make such a statement when we do sin at times? It is our recreated spirits that does not sin. But we do have our souls ( man's intellect, emotions, and will), and the flesh to deal with on earth. This is why we are told to workout our own salvation. It's like a race, a marathon race. When we are born again, we are instantly put into the family of God, but we still have problems with our life. Some of us might be delivered from a drinking problem right away, but it takes many of us awhile to be transformed, but this doesnt mean we are not saved. Some grow faster than others. Therefore, we all have a race to finish. Some will win many of the rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, and some will not finish their race the way God had planned it, but they will still gain entrance into heaven because they are born again.

I am absolutely convinced that when one doesn't understand we have a three-fold nature ( spirit, soul, body) that the Bible can be misunderstood about salvation doctrine.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Veritas]

biblecatholic wrote:
i know of a guy who is buddist, he believes in the exact morality as Christ teaches(not sure if that is orthodox) and he treates his fellow man in a way Christ would be proud,

You are bordering on getting some heat biblecatholic...and I find it interesting you knew it. We all fall short biblecatholic. It doesn't matter if your buddhist friend seems like he has the morality of Christ. Even if he's close, he's fallen short. Guaranteed. Therefore, dead in his sin, and your buddhist friend is doomed to death unless he accepts Christ. Only Christ was perfect and only Christ can please His Father. It's only through Christ that we are saved.

Is your friend making Christ proud? Does He accept Christ as his Savior? Is he leading people to believe that Christ died for their sins and that He is their Savior?

And have you told him what Christ has done for us?

John 3:16 and John 14:6 are clear on what is needed.


You see,
There is nothing we can do to make God love us more, and
There is nothing we can do to make God love us less.

i do believe that some people who never had the oppertunity to know Christ, will be saved. what about some one who only met racist christians, did they have a chance to know Christ?

Everyone has/had a chance to know Christ.