Rob Bell - Mars Hill

[Mike]

Likely, not many people here will know Rob Bell, but at least one person here does (hi Jeff ). Rather than get the "Megachurch" thread too far off track, I wanted to take our discussion here.

Rob is very compelling. I've posted a video from his Nooma series here to give you an idea. He has a way of pulling you into his message. But my observation has been that he crosses the line of the emergent church too much. He has a few books; one is "Velvet Elvis". The premise of the title is declared in the opening pages. He says the Christian Church is evolving. He compared it to a painting being rendered by an artist who completes it and then declares that "the perfect painting has been finished - there's no need for anyone to paint ever again". He says the Church is like that and we are evolving as His Church.

Here's one part of the book that really appalled me. He was talking about how we shouldn't let certain beliefs in the accuracy of the Bible be a rigid brick in the foundation of our faith. The point being that if we aren't flexible and something is proven wrong (like Noah's ark), our faith could crumble because it relies on every little thing to hold up everything else. If something is pulled out, everything crashes. He said our faith should be flexible like the springs of a trampoline; able to absorb things proven wrong in scripture.

But then he takes that and poses something way outside the box which I don't believe should even be thought through. He asks, "What if we were to find out that Mary wasn't a virgin? How would that effect our faith?" He says it wouldn't effect his faith at all.

But, what are the implications of Mary not being a virgin?

• She's a liar.
• The Holy Spirit is a liar.
• The earthly mother of our Lord was a promiscuous tramp.

I don't like to even consider his scenario or its implications. And I don't feel comfortable at all with a pastor being so cavalier with scripture. This is all part of the emergent church as I see it, trivializing scripture to a certain extent and allowing absurd interpretations and disbeliefs to be embraced.

I do appreciate a lot of what he has to say in his books, and the series is good most of the time, so I'm not saying he should be cast out. I'm just saying some red flags go up at times when I listen to him.

Here's a clip from the Nooma series entitled, "Rain". It really is a good one, and you can see his compelling style that has built a megachurch out of one that started in a vacant strip-mall store.

[video=youtube;IinYDR92gBM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IinYDR92gBM&p=463150DBCFBBB20E&playnext=1&index=24[/video]

 

[A New Dawn]

Does't this guy preach at Mars Hill? (I never heard of Rob Bell, but I've seen this guy a lot. He's a pretty good preacher and has a great Christology.)

YouTube - Jesus is the Only Way!

 

[Michae1]

This is weird. He runs a Bible church, but basically says 'Be prepared just in case the Bible is wrong. Because if one thing is wrong, it's all wrong.' Sounds like a case of 'Lack of Faith'.

I watched the video. It was nice, but he sure drags out the story. I read the "Chicken Soup for the Christian Soul" books, and I was thinking he should shortened in down to that kind of format. I just tend to lose interest when speakers keep repeating themselves, or when I understand what they are saying but they just keep talking on and on...

I cannot find much info on his book, but it sounds like it is stocked with "What if's?". There are no 'if's' in the Bible. If there were, it would not be the book it is today.

I'm sure he's a great guy and all, but I tend to stay away from mega churches. I have found that usually 'The bigger the crowd, the more gullible they are.'

 

[PouringRain]

This is weird. He runs a Bible church, but basically says 'Be prepared just in case the Bible is wrong. Because if one thing is wrong, it's all wrong.' Sounds like a case of 'Lack of Faith'.

There is another thread on that portion of the topic here: http://www.christianforums.net/f21/what-if-joseph-proved-jesus-father-29409/

 

[stovebolts]

Mike,
Thanks for starting this thread.

Unfortunatly I only have Velvet Elvis on Audio and I've loaned it out to a friend who's in Ohio, so I don't have a specific reference and it's been over a year since I've listened to Velvet Elvis.

Perhaps, if you have the book, you could copy the entire paragraph where Rob mentions the athiests argument that Mary was not a Virgin. If I recall correctly, and I say this loosly because it's been a long time, but if I recall this statement was made in the context of brick walls and trampolines and Rob's point wasn't about not believing in the virgin birth, but rather making the point that as Christians, we shouldn't spend the majority of our time defending our faith (defending a brick wall) but rather we should invite people to jump with us. (Live a good Christian life).

Again, if I recall, his point wasn't about Mary not being a virgin, but rather our faith in Jesus shouldn't depend on the results of an argument.

 

[Mike]

Jeff, I understand he believes strongly in the virgin birth and his point was as you said: "If" it was proven otherwise, he would have no problem with it. I guess I have a problem with a pastor introducing this unnecessary hypothetical and then taking the stance that he wouldn't have a problem with it. So scripture's clear representation of the virgin birth being proven incorrect would be okay with him?

Again, I'm not saying he's horrible for it. I'm saying I cringed when I read it. Unfortunately, after having borrowed the book from someone about 8 months ago, would you believe, I finally returned it to him yesterday?! So I can't copy it.

His over-all point was good, but I didn't feel comfortable with him using this as an example to make it. There were a few other parts that I can't recall now, but I was uncomfortable as well. Too "emergent" for my taste.

Michae1, it's not a book of "what-if's" as you seem to glean. There actually is some really good stuff in there. It talks about him starting his ministry, capturing a "need" for a fresh message in his community and the growth of his church. He talks about a number of criticisms of the Christian Church and how he overcomes those obstacles with a more open-armed style of ministry. He points to another minister who made the statement (something like) "If someone does not believe in a literal 6-day creation, they are NOT a Christian." He suggests that if a persons faith is so dependent on any one thing, they are being too rigid. I would say he allows for too much in my opinion... my opinion.

Here's link to a site for the book with some audio excerpts.
Zondervan - Velvet Elvis - Rob Bell

My take is that he blew out the doors on his start-up ministry by:
a - his compelling speaking delivery
b - a broader, less convicting Gospel message

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks for the reply Mike, and I think I'll move the conversation over to the other thread.

With that, and in closing I'd like to say that it's ironic how we can both go through that book and get two totally different perspectives from it.