Romans 13

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You should be submissive to all superior authorities. For there is no authority except by God; now the ones who are have been arranged by God. And so, the one who arranges himself against the authority has stood against the arrangement of God. Now the ones who stand against the authority are receiving judgment for themselves. For the ones who rule are not a fright to a good deed but to a bad one. Now do you want to be afraid of the authority? Do the good thing, and you will have praise from it. For he is God's servant to you for good. But if you should do bad, then be afraid. For he does not carry a sword in vain. For he is God's servant, a vindicator for anger, to those who practice badness.
So, there is a necessity to be submissive, not only on account of the anger, but also on account of the conscience. For also you pay taxes for this reason. For they are God's religious servants, attending to this very thing. Pay out your debts to everyone: tax to whom you owe a tax; fear to whom you owe fear; honor to whom you owe honor.
(A Non-Ecclesiastical NT)

Who is the authority Paul is speaking of in this passage? For years i have believed and mainly still believe it to be world and local governments, but a part of me has begun to question whether or not that is a proper conclusion.
As we analyze the passage taking into consideration the writer, who at times wrote things that were difficult to understand, the setting, which was a period of persecution of the saints by the governing body (Rome), and the content of the message, which tells the reader that good will be praised and not punished by the authority, I am caused to wonder if Paul was trying to communicate something a bit different than it appears on the surface.

Is it possible that the authority he wrote of was NOT a secular government but the Christ's authority as king of kings who is said to have a sword coming from his mouth?​

 

[Nathan]

You should be submissive to all superior authorities. For there is no authority except by God; now the ones who are have been arranged by God. And so, the one who arranges himself against the authority has stood against the arrangement of God. Now the ones who stand against the authority are receiving judgment for themselves. For the ones who rule are not a fright to a good deed but to a bad one. Now do you want to be afraid of the authority? Do the good thing, and you will have praise from it. For he is God's servant to you for good. But if you should do bad, then be afraid. For he does not carry a sword in vain. For he is God's servant, a vindicator for anger, to those who practice badness.
So, there is a necessity to be submissive, not only on account of the anger, but also on account of the conscience. For also you pay taxes for this reason. For they are God's religious servants, attending to this very thing. Pay out your debts to everyone: tax to whom you owe a tax; fear to whom you owe fear; honor to whom you owe honor.
(A Non-Ecclesiastical NT)

Who is the authority Paul is speaking of in this passage? For years i have believed and mainly still believe it to be world and local governments, but a part of me has begun to question whether or not that is a proper conclusion.
As we analyze the passage taking into consideration the writer, who at times wrote things that were difficult to understand, the setting, which was a period of persecution of the saints by the governing body (Rome), and the content of the message, which tells the reader that good will be praised and not punished by the authority, I am caused to wonder if Paul was trying to communicate something a bit different than it appears on the surface.

Is it possible that the authority he wrote of was NOT a secular government but the Christ's authority as king of kings who is said to have a sword coming from his mouth?​

I think it is different than what we normally think of. I have not the time to dive into it right now. But I think you will find the answer your looking for by digging into it a little deeper. Examine the words used, look up where the NT speaks of "authority" in the Church vs. authority in the World.

 

[Elijah674]

Rom.13

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
[8] Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love...' (in part)


Never is one to put Caesar (Government) over God. There are two tables written on both of their sides by God Himself. The first four are our duty to God alone! Daniel is full of testing's of puting God before Caesar (King) in life or death threatenings. These would have violated the First table of the Covenant of bowing down in wiorship.

OK: God has given Caesar Government control over ones duty to man. I highlited the above in red. Yet, never is caesar to get involved in the First four commandmentss. Read over this K.J. chapter & you can see that the Government is to take care of mankind! See Acts 5:27-29 + Acts 4:17-20

God's Church is to be Obedient to all ten + Matt. 28:20 commison. The Lamb/like Government of Rev. 13:11 changes from Lamb/like to dragon/like to enforce 666 that will require a change in the USA Constitution. It is then that the blessings of God are removed. Up to this point of time God has abundantly blessed USA because of Religous Freedom.

It is soon to change! All of satans hell is breaking loose (figure of speech) and the 'church' will do anything to try to appease an angry 'g'od, huh? (just not repent!) And they are all in satans united bed together at present! Rev. 17:1-5 + this is satan's unity as in Matt. 6:24. These are already United with satan's rome & their sun decreed day for worship. (Dan. 7:25) It is already being mightfully pushed for a sun law.

And who knows, most all will say, perhaps this will work, huh!

--Elijah

 

[mcgyver]

You should be submissive to all superior authorities. For there is no authority except by God; now the ones who are have been arranged by God. And so, the one who arranges himself against the authority has stood against the arrangement of God. Now the ones who stand against the authority are receiving judgment for themselves. For the ones who rule are not a fright to a good deed but to a bad one. Now do you want to be afraid of the authority? Do the good thing, and you will have praise from it. For he is God's servant to you for good. But if you should do bad, then be afraid. For he does not carry a sword in vain. For he is God's servant, a vindicator for anger, to those who practice badness.
So, there is a necessity to be submissive, not only on account of the anger, but also on account of the conscience. For also you pay taxes for this reason. For they are God's religious servants, attending to this very thing. Pay out your debts to everyone: tax to whom you owe a tax; fear to whom you owe fear; honor to whom you owe honor.
(A Non-Ecclesiastical NT)

Who is the authority Paul is speaking of in this passage? For years i have believed and mainly still believe it to be world and local governments, but a part of me has begun to question whether or not that is a proper conclusion.
As we analyze the passage taking into consideration the writer, who at times wrote things that were difficult to understand, the setting, which was a period of persecution of the saints by the governing body (Rome), and the content of the message, which tells the reader that good will be praised and not punished by the authority, I am caused to wonder if Paul was trying to communicate something a bit different than it appears on the surface.

Is it possible that the authority he wrote of was NOT a secular government but the Christ's authority as king of kings who is said to have a sword coming from his mouth?​

I think that the Romans 13 passage does indeed speak to secular governments. If we compare scripture with scripture, we can see this further defined in 1 Peter 2:13-17 which says:

Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-30410"></sup>or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. (emphasis mine)

Notice the similarity in language and thought...particularly in reference to those sent by (earthly) authority for the punishment of evildoers etc.

Also, there is no doubt that Peter is here admonishing Christians to obey and be subject to secular law (Ordinance of man...).

 

[Nathan]

I think that the Romans 13 passage does indeed speak to secular governments. If we compare scripture with scripture, we can see this further defined in 1 Peter 2:13-17 which says:

Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-30410"></sup>or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. (emphasis mine)

Notice the similarity in language and thought...particularly in reference to those sent by (earthly) authority for the punishment of evildoers etc.

Also, there is no doubt that Peter is here admonishing Christians to obey and be subject to secular law (Ordinance of man...).

This is a personal question to you then; at what point do you not submit to the government?

 

[mcgyver]

Excellent question!

I think that there are only 2 times that a Christian would be exempt...

One is when to obey a secular law would result in one blaspheming God. The book of Daniel is a great example...Daniel and his compatriots refused to worship any other god, and the Lord protected and blessed them.

The other case would (I think) be when to obey a secular law would result in breaking the (if you will) higher moral law of God. An example would be the Christians who protected Jews in Nazi Germany during WW2, breaking German law but protecting folks from being murdered.

In the first case...pretty clear-cut. In fact untold numbers of early Christians were martyred because they would not give a wine offering or pinch of incense to the bust of Caesar...as required by Roman law.

The second case...not so clear-cut...and this is where we as Christians, if we are going to feel compelled to break a law...must make sure we're doing so for God's sake vs trying to justify something that we want to do.

 

[Elijah674]

Rom. 13 has it Caesar & Church Worship seperated. Renember it took a Christless Church to execute Christ using the Law of Ceasar. (see Matt. 22:35-40) They even claimed.. WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR.

And Rom. 13 is & was all about the Duty to man Commandment. (Nothing on Worship of God given to Caesar)

In Matt. 22 finds Christ Second Table of His law conditionally intrusted to Caesar.

[16] And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

[17] Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

[18] But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

(That is quite a mouthful above, huh?)

[19] Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
[20] And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
[21] They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and 'unto God the things that are God's.

Again: Read over the Eternal Covenant, and of the ten you will find only the last six (Second table of stone) where God has OKed for Caesar to be involved in. (NEVER THE FIRST FOUR PERTAINING TO HIS WORSHIP)

And the Church were to be Obedient in all ten + Caesar Government when they stayed out of... 'and God the things THAT ARE GOD'S

--Elijah