Romans 2:6-16

[Drew]

As many of you will know, some who will no doubt roll their eyes up into their heads when reminded of this, I think that Romans 2:6-16 describes a future judgement at which all humans, believers and non-believers alike, will be judged according to the content of their lives - their "works" if you will.

Some (although by no means all) argue that the references to getting eternal life based on "persisting in doing good" or in "being a doer of the law" describe a pathway to justification that Paul actually believes that zero persons will take. The argument goes that in Romans 3 and 4 Paul basically goes on to say that no one gets justified by doing "good works" and so we have to view the Romans 2 bit, at least the part about those who end up being justified, as being not factual - a description of the way things would proceed if it were possible for us to be justified by our works. I find that such a position is really hard to buy into for reasons I have given at length elsewhere.

Although the purpose of this thread is to solicit ideas about what this passage is all about, I would, in this first post, like to present some new thoughts as to why we should not view the "works-based justification" path as being something "theoretoical" that Paul later undercuts.

The essence of the argument in this post is that Paul rather clearly weaves this bit of Romans 2 into other parts of the letter, strongly suggesting that this is not only a "theoretical" pathway to justification that none will take. In particular, I draw your attention to this from Romans 2:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts

Note the following from Romans 10:6 and following:

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,....

Paul is quoting a covenant renewal passage from Deuteronomy 30 where the writer writes as follows about the issue of following God's directives:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it

If the point is not self-evident: Paul can be understood as connecting Romans 10:6 and following with the Romans 2;6-16 material - it is precisely because the covenant is renewed in Christ and the Spirit given, it indeed possible for us to obey and thus be justified by being 'doers of the law'.

Paul has not abandoned the "works-based" path of justification as per Romans 2 - in Romans 10, he explains how this path can indeed be followed through the renewal of the covenant.

If anyone wants to claim that this requires me to hold a "justification by my own works" position, I will respond that this is most definitely not the case.

 

[unred typo]

quote by RadicalReformer:Drew, in response to verse 2:7, I would suggest that we would should start a new thread on the subject.

This isn't even a 'ask and you shall receive' deal. This was a done deal. :D

quote by RadicalReformer:
The question that I would have for this passage of Scripture is: Is this passage dealing with the "salvation of God" or the "judgment of God"?
I would contend that Romans 2 is not dealing with salvation, but rather dealing with judgment. Verse 1-2: "Therefore you have you excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things."

Your contention that this only applies to those who pass judgment on others is rather confusing. Exactly what is the difference between a judgment where the outcome is either ‘eternal life’ or ‘wrath’ and a judgment that deals with “the salvation of Godâ€Â. What salvation of God isn’t eternal life and a salvation from wrath?

I suggest that you read from verse 1 through, at the very least, verse 9. Read it as many times as it takes for you to understand that every man in verse 6 really does mean every man (as in mankind). Verse 11 even drives this all the way home for you by saying there is no respect of persons with God. No favorites. No pets. No exceptions. You will be judged by your works.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Romas 1:18-32 serve as an indictment against the Gentile world. Starting in verse 18 there is a downward slope of devolution as a result of sin, culminating with verses 28-32 with God giving them over to their "depraved mind" because they (WE) no longer saw fit to "acknowledge God."

This should come as a stern warning that when we fail to acknowledge God, when we walk in the Flesh, rather than the Spirit - that God will give us too over to our "depraved mind". Thankfully, we have a long-suffering God who is willing to bring about reconcillation and repetance to the believer.

So, we come to chapter 2 - having Paul indicting the Gentiles. To the Jewish reader, then might very well be cheering Paul along. To the Jew, the Gentiles were mere dogs, unfit for the Grace of God, the righteousness of God, and the promise of God. But here, in Chapter 2 - Paul addresses his Jewish audience, and turns the table on them.

Using the Gentiles, Paul uses them as a witness against the Jew - in fact using the Gentile as one witness to show the guilt of the Jewish nation. Verse 1: "for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." While the Jews were busy pointing their finger at the Gentiles, they did not realize that there where three fingers pointing back at them!

We see in verse 2 that God's judgement is right and true - falling on both the Jew and the Gentile.

verse 4-11 Paul calls forth another witness to testify - that of the blessings of God. The blessings that they received required of them greater responsibility to obey and glorify God. " Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience..." It is God's goodness, His patience and long-suffering that leads to repentance.

verses 6-11 show God's judgement is based on the totality of actions and truth. This acts as an indictment against the notion of "doing" good, without "being" good. verse 11: There is no partiallity with God. Just because the Jews observed a few feasts, just because the Jews "acted" good - that does not mean that it absolved them of their unbelief and disobedience towards God. This verse would have pierced the Jew to the "quick" - because to the Jew they believed that they were "God's chosen people" - regardless of their belief (or lack thereof) - they were still God's chosen people.

Whereas the Jew boasted in the Law - that very Law worked as a mirror showing the Jew their guilt before God. Even the Gentiles had the Law "written on their hearts (conscience)." verse 2:15

God judges based on the truth (2:2); on deeds (2:6); and the heart (2:16)

Paul (through the Holy Spirit) is building a "case" for Judgement against all (Romans 3:23) - that we are all guilty. However, we cannot parse this chapter and these passages out of the big picture of Romans and hope to get a clear understanding of Justification. We have only the begining building blocks. What Paul continues to build as we move through Romans is that we, both Jew and Gentile, are guilty - it is through the Justification of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

We are justified because of the redemptive work of Christ Jesus; "WHO GOD DISPLAYED PUBLICLY AS A PROPITIATION IN HIS BLOOD THROUGH FAITH. THIS WAS TO DEMONSTRATE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS BECAUSE IN THE FORBEARANCE OF GOD HE PASSED OVER THE SINS PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED."

"FOR THE DEMONSTRATION, I SAY, OF HIS RIGHTOUESNESS AT THE PRESENT TIME< SO THAT HE WOULD BE JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." (Romans 3:24-26)

Forgive the large caps, but I cannot help but shout the Gospel Truth that we who believe in Christ Jesus, who place their faith in the redemptive work of the cross are JUSTIFIED by FAITH.

And accursed stands the man who dares preach another Gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ... "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Galations 2:16)

I will echo the words of the Apostle Paul: "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21)

 

[unred typo]

quote by RadicalReformer:
Romas 1:18-32 serve as an indictment against the Gentile world. Starting in verse 18 there is a downward slope of devolution as a result of sin, culminating with verses 28-32 with God giving them over to their "depraved mind" because they (WE) no longer saw fit to "acknowledge God."

This should come as a stern warning that when we fail to acknowledge God, when we walk in the Flesh, rather than the Spirit - that God will give us too over to our "depraved mind". Thankfully, we have a long-suffering God who is willing to bring about reconcillation and repetance to the believer.

So, we come to chapter 2 - having Paul indicting the Gentiles. To the Jewish reader, then might very well be cheering Paul along. To the Jew, the Gentiles were mere dogs, unfit for the Grace of God, the righteousness of God, and the promise of God. But here, in Chapter 2 - Paul addresses his Jewish audience, and turns the table on them.

Using the Gentiles, Paul uses them as a witness against the Jew - in fact using the Gentile as one witness to show the guilt of the Jewish nation. Verse 1: "for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." While the Jews were busy pointing their finger at the Gentiles, they did not realize that there where three fingers pointing back at them!

We see in verse 2 that God's judgement is right and true - falling on both the Jew and the Gentile.

verse 4-11 Paul calls forth another witness to testify - that of the blessings of God. The blessings that they received required of them greater responsibility to obey and glorify God. " Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience..." It is God's goodness, His patience and long-suffering that leads to repentance.

verses 6-11 show God's judgement is based on the totality of actions and truth. This acts as an indictment against the notion of "doing" good, without "being" good. verse 11: There is no partiallity with God. Just because the Jews observed a few feasts, just because the Jews "acted" good - that does not mean that it absolved them of their unbelief and disobedience towards God. This verse would have pierced the Jew to the "quick" - because to the Jew they believed that they were "God's chosen people" - regardless of their belief (or lack thereof) - they were still God's chosen people.

Whereas the Jew boasted in the Law - that very Law worked as a mirror showing the Jew their guilt before God. Even the Gentiles had the Law "written on their hearts (conscience)." verse 2:15

God judges based on the truth (2:2); on deeds (2:6); and the heart (2:16)

Paul (through the Holy Spirit) is building a "case" for Judgement against all (Romans 3:23) - that we are all guilty. However, we cannot parse this chapter and these passages out of the big picture of Romans and hope to get a clear understanding of Justification. We have only the begining building blocks. What Paul continues to build as we move through Romans is that we, both Jew and Gentile, are guilty - it is through the Justification of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Why did you divide this sentence in half and start another paragraph with the second half? Very strange. Shouldn’t this last sentence read: “What Paul continues to build as we move through Romans is that we, both Jew and Gentile, are guilty - it is through the Justification of God through faith in Jesus Christ we are justified because of the redemptive work of Christ Jesus; (etc.)†? (just wondering… you were probably tired when you wrote this) So let’s go on to the rest of the sentence:

quote by RadicalReformer:
We are justified because of the redemptive work of Christ Jesus; "WHO GOD DISPLAYED PUBLICLY AS A PROPITIATION IN HIS BLOOD THROUGH FAITH. THIS WAS TO DEMONSTRATE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS BECAUSE IN THE FORBEARANCE OF GOD HE PASSED OVER THE SINS PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED."

"FOR THE DEMONSTRATION, I SAY, OF HIS RIGHTOUESNESS AT THE PRESENT TIME< SO THAT HE WOULD BE JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." (Romans 3:24-26)

Forgive the large caps, but I cannot help but shout the Gospel Truth that we who believe in Christ Jesus, who place their faith in the redemptive work of the cross are JUSTIFIED by FAITH.

And I thought you were excited to find out Drew was correct in his view and that you in fact, agreed with him.

quote by RadicalReformer:
And accursed stands the man who dares preach another Gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ... "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Galations 2:16)

I will echo the words of the Apostle Paul: "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21)

I must say I’m impressed, Rad. This sounds like the published work of some theologian. Nevertheless, there were several points I agreed with. We are back to square one at the end though, since you still fail to see the ‘works of the law’ as being the ritualistic observance of Torah, and not the good deeds done in faith, obedience and love for Christ. I fail to see how this changes what Drew said about the faith of God to his covenant or nullifies anything he wrote in his OP, which had to do with every man being judged by his works. This is what you said about that, which I agreed with, btw:

Rad wrote:
God judges based on the truth (2:2); on deeds (2:6); and the heart (2:16)

Paul (through the Holy Spirit) is building a "case" for Judgement against all (Romans 3:23) - that we are all guilty.

And

Rad wrote:
verses 6-11 show God's judgement is based on the totality of actions and truth. This acts as an indictment against the notion of "doing" good, without "being" good. verse 11: There is no partiallity with God. Just because the Jews observed a few feasts, just because the Jews "acted" good - that does not mean that it absolved them of their unbelief and disobedience towards God.

The thing is that we all have sinned, both Jew and Gentile alike, we all will be justified because of the faith of Christ, (by following what he taught us and the Holy Spirit leads us to do, we will be redeemed by his blood that removes our sin when we forsake and confess it ), both Jew and Gentile alike, and then we all will be judged by our works, both Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Drew]

"FOR THE DEMONSTRATION, I SAY, OF HIS RIGHTOUESNESS AT THE PRESENT TIME< SO THAT HE WOULD BE JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." (Romans 3:24-26)

Forgive the large caps, but I cannot help but shout the Gospel Truth that we who believe in Christ Jesus, who place their faith in the redemptive work of the cross are JUSTIFIED by FAITH.

And accursed stands the man who dares preach another Gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ... "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Galations 2:16)

I agree that we are justified by faith in the following specific sense: In the present we can identify those who will indeed be justified by the good works of their lives on the last day in accordance with the clear teaching of Romans 2:7 and 2:13. How do we identify them: bases on their faith and their faith alone.

So we who place our faith in Jesus in the present can be assured that God will "complete the good work He has begun in us". How can "mere" faith in the present result in a future justification by good works. Paul tells us repeatedly - in Romans 2, 8, 10, etc. - He will, through the action of the Spirit, write the law on our hearts so that we may obey it. I am more than happy to fill out this argument (again).

And as far as Galatians 2:16 is concerned: Paul is condemning those who would claim that the ethnic specificity of the works of Torah are the grounds for justification. This is not the same thing as saying that "good works" do not justify.

Romans 2:7 and 2:13 are clear - there will be a future judgement at which people are given eternal life based on being "doers" of the Law - with Law suitably redefined by Paul. All the efforts to say that such a judgement will not occur have, I will suggest, been shown to be extremely dubious. But I am happy to revisit any claims to the effect that these verses are not be taken "as they plainly read".

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - where is this "works of the Torah" and this "ethnicity" that you keep talking about.

Let's be honest here - are you seeking to learn, or are you merely presenting your "belief" in an effort to better defend it. I gather it is the latter.

 

[unred typo]

quote by RadicalReformer:
Drew - where is this "works of the Torah" and this "ethnicity" that you keep talking about.

This "ethnicity" is quite apparent, Rad, when the verses of Romans continually compare the JEW with the GENTILE, it can’t be any plainer. Do you not understand that the JEW had specific laws and rites that set them apart from the Gentiles? This is Bible 101. Third grade Sunday school material.

quote by RadicalReformer:
Let's be honest here - are you seeking to learn, or are you merely presenting your "belief" in an effort to better defend it. I gather it is the latter.

I’m sure Drew is honestly presenting his view because he actually believes it. Of course he is going to defend it. That is what apologetics is all about, defending the truths of Christianity. The fact that he is willing to let it be tested and torn apart by opposing, even hostile, proponents of the traditional view show that he is more interested in truth than merely holding onto an ear tickling fallacy.

 

[Drew]

Drew - where is this "works of the Torah" and this "ethnicity" that you keep talking about.

Let's be honest here - are you seeking to learn, or are you merely presenting your "belief" in an effort to better defend it. I gather it is the latter.

I am not going to repeat detailed arguments that I have already presented.

I will say this: When Paul refers to "Law", he is not referring to a vague set of principles about "right livin" - he is referring to the 613 (or whatever) rules that constitute Torah. And I have making an argument that when he refers to "works", he is not talking about "good works" in general, but is again talking about following the specific dictates of Torah. I actually argue this point, providing reasons to believe it, in the Romans 4 thread. So I will not repeat what has already been said.

I have further argued that when Paul refers to the "works of Torah", he is doing so with a specific purpose:

1. To be fair to your position, Paul could have referred to the works of Torah with the purpose of arguing a "we are not justified by doing good things" position - since Torah does deal with "moral behavour" at least in part. But I think it is clear that this is not his purpose.

2. Instead, it is clear that he talks about the works of Torah in respect to its function of marking out the Jew against his pagan neighbour. So he is not using the "works of Torah" to make a point about whether good works justify.

And I will not even respond to your attempts to turn this away from a discussion about the text and into a discussion about my honesty and motives. Why not take the high road and not impugn motives and character?

Have I ever impugned your character?

Have I ever suggested that you are less than honest in your posts?

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - I am not impugning anything...

Motives are very important. Most times these forums are used as a way to express one's views in an effort to "win arguments". To see if objections can be overcome in an effort to claim victory in a debate.

So, are we relying on the Holy Spirit to guide and teach, or are we looking to sharpen our debate skills?

I am not looking to win arguments or debates. I seek to learn from the teacher of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Drew]

Drew - I am not impugning anything...

Motives are very important. Most times these forums are used as a way to express one's views in an effort to "win arguments". To see if objections can be overcome in an effort to claim victory in a debate.

So, are we relying on the Holy Spirit to guide and teach, or are we looking to sharpen our debate skills?

I am not looking to win arguments or debates. I seek to learn from the teacher of the Holy Spirit.

Let's discuss the text please. Unless you are a mind reader, you simply have zero basis for assuming anything about my motives. But even if my motives are bad, the arguments are what they - and the reader will judge them by their content, not by wondering about my motives.

Do people question what Pythagorus' motives were in presenting his geometrical arguments? No they do not. They look at the arguments and see if they work. I suggest that this whole motive issue will be seen as a distraction from the noted absence of compelling counterarguments to the arguments I have presented.

When the argument is not going one's way, a common "response" is to question the motive of the person whose argument is prevailing. I think of the "good" old days when a certain poster who will remain nameless would call people "children of the devil" when his argument was obviously being deconstructed. This is a pretty transparent tactic.

Am I wrong or am I right re the translation issue? Or any other issue?" I am going to keep trying to steer us to the text. You will not succeed in turning this into an issue about my motives. They are entirely irrelevant.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Motives are very much relevant. Gee, do we not look at the motives behind political campaigns?

In criminal cases, isn't motive important?

I am not here to win an arguement with you Drew... I gave you my understanding of the text. It was your who wanted to sidestep it by looking at a translation issue, and incorrectly labeled my translation as NIV.

Unless I missed it, I do not remember seeing a post where you corrected your mistake.

 

[Drew]

Motives are very much relevant. Gee, do we not look at the motives behind political campaigns?

In criminal cases, isn't motive important?

I am not here to win an arguement with you Drew... I gave you my understanding of the text. It was your who wanted to sidestep it by looking at a translation issue, and incorrectly labeled my translation as NIV.

Unless I missed it, I do not remember seeing a post where you corrected your mistake.

Please show me where I have misrepresented you (which I assure you, if true, was not intentional) and I will publically correct my statement.

I will not participate in a veering off of this topic from issues of the text and its proper interpretation into a discussion of something every reader will know you have no evidence for: my motives.

Let's say my motives are 100 % bad. The point still remains: what is the specific error in the position that I am putting forward?

 

[mutzrein]

I think I have posted some or all of this before but will do so again. Maybe food for thought?

Some time ago, my father - a very gracious and godly man - and I were discussing some points that have been raised here, by long distance phone call & letter. We live hundreds of miles apart. He was as firmly convinced as any man I know that all men are judged – that all will be sent to either heaven or hell. We entered into very intense discussion about it – something I was not particularly keen to do with him, so I said to him, “I would like you to write to me and to state your case in writing. And I would like you to support your belief with scripture,†“And,†I added – blurting it out with no forethought of issuing such a challenge, “with the very scripture you use, I will show you that not all are judged.â€Â
Nevertheless after making the challenge I felt confident that I would indeed be able to answer him as I said, as it was not something I contrived to do. Since God had placed a premise of understanding of the gospel within my heart I was then and am now more than ever firmly convinced of it.

When his reply was received he quoted Romans 2, virtually the whole thing while underlining the passages that he wanted to emphasise which talked about judgement. Actually it is not unlike many - even on this forum who hold to a particular premise and quote it as though everyone else should have the same premise. Of course quoting scripture is one thing but taking it out of context is something else.

So, this is my response – not verbatim in its entirety as written to my father, but also bringing the passage into context for the sake of other readers.

Now to put something in context I ask myself, who is being addressed and what is it that relates to them and what relates to others. Of course we know that (the book of) Romans was written to Roman (Gentile) believers. The former part of chapter 2 is warning them not to judge others. Paul then goes on to say, "because of your stubborn and unrepentant hearts, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Gods wrath . . ." Now clearly, this is speaking in a personal way to the church. It is to those who by virtue of their calling by God, already have a relationship with Him. And since they have this relationship, Paul goes to great lengths to explain to them that they will be judged for their actions.

He then goes on to broaden the scope to include every human being, both to those who do evil and to those who do good. And directly after this comes the key, because then Paul states emphatically what will happen to mankind.

From verse 12, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles - because they are outside of the law.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They will perish.

Going on, "and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: The Jews - Gods own people because they were entrusted with the law.
Question: And what will happen to them? Answer: They will be judged.

Going on again, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Now here Paul make an amazing transition between those who have been given the law (the Jews), and those by virtue of their faith in God are declared righteous (this includes both Jew and Gentile.) And then Paul explains this further as he focuses on the Gentiles saying, "Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They also will be judged as the next verse avows, "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my Gospel declares."

So summing this up:

Gentiles who sin apart from the law perish apart from the law. And let’s not forget why the law was given to Gods people. If it was not given to the Gentiles then they (the Gentiles) perish outside of it. That means they are not judged by it.

Jews who sin under the law are judged by the Law.

Jews & Gentiles who obey the law, (not because they follow the written code but since the law is written on their hearts) are declared righteous. And since it is written on their hearts their consciences accuse and defend them. And who knows the heart of man but God alone - he will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ.