Romans 6:14

[glorydaz]

Being made in God's image does not mean we have freewill. It simply means we become whatever image of God we imagine. Hence the True Image of God was sent so that we may believe and be changed accordingly.


The True Image of God was revealed to all pre New Testament believers as Jesus said, Abraham rejoiced to see his day and he saw it and was glad. Before Abraham was I was.


Your judgment of Adam is unfair in my view, being that it is obtuse. Even as Abraham saw Jesus and was glad, so also would Adam have been glad to find out Satan was wrong about God. For the false image of god had come from the devil, which is what put Adam in the predicament of wondering if he really knew God. You should think carefully about this. How we judge others reveals the purity of our hearts. Hence Satan was sure Job would curse God, which says more about Satan than it does about Job.

Here you contradict your own points. For you equate choosing to do the law as equivalent to righteousness by faith. We could not choose to do written commands any more than a man can conjure love at his discretion. Moreover, faith is not a decision made through intellect. Faith comes by revelation of what is undeniably trustworthy. To trust is to be convinced of the integrity of our maker, and so also establishes us whom He has made, including Adam.

You say you can believe Jesus died for our sins. So what? To establish it is by your own freewill you have done so, you must also be able to choose to not believe in the Christ. I know for a fact you cannot choose to distrust Christ no matter how hard you try. I don't expect that you can deny the power of this reality lest you become a liar, therefore you should concede this point and be at peace. After all it only serves to glorify God.

Childeye, you seem to be getting angry, and I would encourage you to not take what I say so personally.


Obviously being created in God's image does mean we have free will because Adam and Eve could and did choose to eat of the fruit.

You may not like what I say about Adam...I'm just stating what the Holy Scripture tells us.

I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

As far as the rest of your post, do you know about the serpent on a pole? I didn't make this stuff up, it's all in the Word for anyone to read for themselves.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;581960]Childeye, you seem to be getting angry, and I would encourage you to not take what I say so personally.

It is true that I am, shall I say "perturbed " at your responses. Read the record. I have addressed all of your points with forthright and honest rebuttal. You ignore every point I have presented however, and act oblivious as if I did not even respond. You continue your challenged points as if they were never challenged. I don't however take it personally. I am simply dissapointed that there is no meaningful reciprocation.

Obviously being created in God's image does mean we have free will because Adam and Eve could and did choose to eat of the fruit.

Take this point for example. You essentially say that because Adam and Eve could and did choose to eat, that this is what it means to be made in God's image. That we can choose our moral direction is to be like God. Ironically this is exactly what Satan said in the Garden and was his image of god. It's as if you take being made in God's image gives us the ability to deny God. You do not even acknowledge my point that being made in God's image means we spiritually become whatever we imagine God to be. Nor therefore are you able to see the implications of what I have said, since you seem to have given no credence to such an invaluable insight for the sake of protecting a false theory. The implications being that those who have Satan's image of god, are the children of Satan.

You may not like what I say about Adam...I'm just stating what the Holy Scripture tells us.

On the contrary, if I am correct and that by saying Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't, Paul never meant to imply that Adam knew what he was doing, as you have implied, then you are in reality distorting what scripture says. For I have compared the two spirits that come according to which way one believes and I much rather prefer the one that has mercy and understanding for Adam and Eve rather than condemnation and ridicule. One is compassionate and fosters humility and the other is self-righteous and vindictive. I see Christ and the pharisees.

As far as the rest of your post, do you know about the serpent on a pole? I didn't make this stuff up, it's all in the Word for anyone to read for themselves.

Yes I know about the serpent on the pole. I can easily guess that you take this to mean we must admit we have done wrong and therefore supports "freewill". But to make my point against "freewill", I will say the reason we must look at the serpent is to admit we were bitten by a serpent and quite thinking the effects of the venom are not affecting our choices because the poison of the lies are causing us to die morally. Hence I am sympathetic towards Adam and Eve.

 

[glorydaz]

Obviously being created in God's image does mean we have free will because Adam and Eve could and did choose to eat of the fruit.

Take this point for example. You essentially say that because Adam and Eve could and did choose to eat, that this is what it means to be made in God's image. That we can choose our moral direction is to be like God. Ironically this is exactly what Satan said in the Garden and was his image of god. It's as if you take being made in God's image gives us the ability to deny God. You do not even acknowledge my point that being made in God's image means we spiritually become whatever we imagine God to be. Nor therefore are you able to see the implications of what I have said, since you seem to have given no credence to such an invaluable insight for the sake of protecting a false theory. The implications being that those who have Satan's image of god, are the children of Satan.

What you say I'm "essentially" saying, isn't what I was really saying at all. Being made in God's image means we are thinking individuals who God has chosen to give a free will...to choose Him or reject Him. That's it, none of this becoming whatever we imagine God to be. I can see, from what you've said that you consider your insight "valuable", but since it doesn't agree with the Word of God, I can't really consider it as such. And the very fact that you say I'm protecting a "false theory", doesn't do much to enhance the dialogue.

You may not like what I say about Adam...I'm just stating what the Holy Scripture tells us.

On the contrary, if I am correct and that by saying Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't, Paul never meant to imply that Adam knew what he was doing, as you have implied, then you are in reality distorting what scripture says. For I have compared the two spirits that come according to which way one believes and I much rather prefer the one that has mercy and understanding for Adam and Eve rather than condemnation and ridicule. One is compassionate and fosters humility and the other is self-righteous and vindictive. I see Christ and the pharisees.

I can't see how I can be distorting scripture when I simply gave you a verse that stated exactly what I'd said. You can prefer whatever "two spirits" you want, but once again, I choose to accept the Word of God for it's clear meaning

Yes I know about the serpent on the pole. I can easily guess that you take this to mean we must admit we have done wrong and therefore supports "freewill". But to make my point against "freewill", I will say the reason we must look at the serpent is to admit we were bitten by a serpent and quite thinking the effects of the venom are not affecting our choices because the poison of the lies are causing us to die morally. Hence I am sympathetic towards Adam and Eve.

I have a really hard time following your reasoning. Suffice it to say that the people had to choose to look at the serpent (representing Christ) in order live. Again, I'm not really sure what being sympathetic towards Adam and Eve have to do with anything.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;582940]What you say I'm "essentially" saying, isn't what I was really saying at all. Being made in God's image means we are thinking individuals who God has chosen to give a free will...to choose Him or reject Him.

We have an obvious disconnect, for you say what I am saying regarding what you are saying is not accurate and then you proceed to reiterate exactly the same sentiment I perceived in the first place. To be precise I do not agree that God gave us the ability to reject Him because He bestowed reasoning capability upon His creation. For to aree with such an assessment one would have to conclude that the rejecting God is perfectly reasonable and not count sin as a deception.

That's it, none of this becoming whatever we imagine God to be. I can see, from what you've said that you consider your insight "valuable", but since it doesn't agree with the Word of God, I can't really consider it as such.

Doesn't agree with the Word of God? You are sadly mistaken. The Image of God is the Word of God. That's why the Word was made flesh, for us to have the proper Image of God.
Romans 1:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Here I have provided scripture that shows why the Image of God we hold means everything to being right before God. Every idol therefore is a false image of god and we need only to know the scriptures little to know that scripture refers constantly to it and even gives it as the cause of God's wrath toward mankind. The very reason the Christ is called the True Image of God is so that we might put away our false images through belief in Him whom God sent and worship the true ever living God. So please with all honesty reconsider my sincere evaluation of this matter and do not say the scriptures do not reflect the same.

And the very fact that you say I'm protecting a "false theory", doesn't do much to enhance the dialogue.

Well I'm sorry, but it is frustrating and I ask for some empathy towards understanding the motive of my forthright appraisal.

I can't see how I can be distorting scripture when I simply gave you a verse that stated exactly what I'd said.

Quite simply you've taken the verse out of context and applied it as a negative assessment of Adam which Paul never intended. Then you compound the problem by using this as a means of justifying other reasoning that then forms false conclusions.

You can prefer whatever "two spirits" you want, but once again, I choose to accept the Word of God for it's clear meaning

But it is not it's clear meaning that you have arbitrarily appointed. It's meaning is clearly pertaining to who should have authority over who. Paul was not speaking about how Adam knew what he was doing when trusting the woman rather than himself. You have applied it to say Adam knowingly and willfully betrayed God and is a co-conspirater with Satan.

Regarding the "two spirits", I am speaking about what spirits live in us through suspicion or unbelief as opposed to that single spirit that is light in one's heart. I would point out that Jesus called it the wickedness of this generation and we should take heed. Would you make little of my desire to have light in my heart? It is the very cause of Christ and the very will of God.

I have a really hard time following your reasoning.

I do have empathy for our disconnect even as I do not believe you desire to not understand. To me it is Satan between us and not you or I. However you of course cannot see this because you do not believe Satan has any power to steal the Word of God even as it is spoken, but I assure you that this is as Jesus said.

Suffice it to say that the people had to choose to look at the serpent (representing Christ) in order live.

Yes people must look at the Christ because he is the true Image of God that destroys the false image presented to us through the subtlty of the serpent whom you have said I give too much power to in clinging to your idea that men's wills are free simply because we choose. You do not therefore look deeper into why we choose the way we do. We choose according to the image of god we hold to be true.

Again, I'm not really sure what being sympathetic towards Adam and Eve have to do with anything.

The same thing it has to do with why Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do. Because even as we have all made mistakes we wish we could change we are obligated to have mercy. And although Jesus was without sin he acknowledges this even to the point of crucifixion and forgiveness for it.

So how important is our mercy and understanding towards our common parents, through whom we have inherited sin and suffer the consequences of it? Even as important as the blood of Christ through whom we have received righteousness. And this righteousness is the righteousness by faith vs. that wickedness which I earlier alluded to as suspicion and unbelief. Not only in God, but also in one another, recognizing it is Satan that desires not to give the benefit of the doubt, even as Jesus did on the cross where he justified all who believe the same as he.

 

[glorydaz]

We have an obvious disconnect, for you say what I am saying regarding what you are saying is not accurate and then you proceed to reiterate exactly the same sentiment I perceived in the first place. To be precise I do not agree that God gave us the ability to reject Him because He bestowed reasoning capability upon His creation. For to aree with such an assessment one would have to conclude that the rejecting God is perfectly reasonable and not count sin as a deception.

Let's start here and take it slow. I hate to use this word, because some people think of it as negative, but I'm kind of a "simple" person. Basic and down-to-earth may be a better way to say it. Take, for instance, when you say sin is a deception. Are you saying all sin originates with satan...the deceiver? And is that why you think the natural man isn't responsible for his actions? If that's what, indeed, you think?

We know satan isn't God. He can't be everywhere at once. He comes and goes... a "roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" Even though he has an army of fallen angels, they can't be everywhere at once.

And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

James says man can deceive himself, "James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

There are three things man has to deal with...the world, the flesh, and the devil. For the unbeliever, satan's main job is to blind them to the gospel message, but these speak to the world and the flesh.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Their own fleshly appetites and exposure to the ungodly world system are temptations enough, and the more man ignores his conscience the more seared it becomes.

Doesn't agree with the Word of God? You are sadly mistaken. The Image of God is the Word of God. That's why the Word was made flesh, for us to have the proper Image of God.
Romans 1:21-23

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Here I have provided scripture that shows why the Image of God we hold means everything to being right before God. Every idol therefore is a false image of god and we need only to know the scriptures little to know that scripture refers constantly to it and even gives it as the cause of God's wrath toward mankind. The very reason the Christ is called the True Image of God is so that we might put away our false images through belief in Him whom God sent and worship the true ever living God. So please with all honesty reconsider my sincere evaluation of this matter and do not say the scriptures do not reflect the same.

Yes, some scripture reflects that, but you can't discount the fact that God gave men a conscience, therefore man can't claim he has been deceived and doesn't know any better.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

There are uncounted people in the Bible who followed their conscience, and many still do...although none can follow it perfectly because the flesh is weak...nor could the Jews follow it perfectly. But not all people are idol worshipers. There is an innate craving to find God among God's creation, which is why idols came about to begin with.

Well I'm sorry, but it is frustrating and I ask for some empathy towards understanding the motive of my forthright appraisal.

And I sincerely appologize if I've been insensitive, Childeye. I must confess, it's hard over the internet to remember there is a real live person on the other end of the line. I have no doubt we'd both be a little less abrupt if we were sitting down face to face. ;)

Quite simply you've taken the verse out of context and applied it as a negative assessment of Adam which Paul never intended. Then you compound the problem by using this as a means of justifying other reasoning that then forms false conclusions.

But it is not it's clear meaning that you have arbitrarily appointed. It's meaning is clearly pertaining to who should have authority over who. Paul was not speaking about how Adam knew what he was doing when trusting the woman rather than himself. You have applied it to say Adam knowingly and willfully betrayed God and is a co-conspirater with Satan.

I'm surprised you took it that way. Disobedience, as I see it, has nothing to do with being a co-conspirator with Satan. As I tried to point out above, Adam is no different than we are. God gave him a free will to obey or disobey God. He disobeyed God...so did Eve in a different way. But God had given a command, and Adam was to be the head of the woman, so the greater fault lies with him. Just as it does in a marriage today. It wasn't just that satan said they would be like God...Eve saw the fruit looked good to eat. Genesis 3:6 - "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

NOTICE....the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those are the same things we face.

Naturally, satan was there in the garden...he wanted to destroy God's plan for fellowship with those He'd created in His image. He was also present to stop Jesus (from the time He was born until He died on the cross).

Anyway, I'll have to get to the rest of your post tomorrow. Maybe the next time, we could just kinda cover one or two points. This gets so complicated with all these quotes.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;583177]Let's start here and take it slow. I hate to use this word, because some people think of it as negative, but I'm kind of a "simple" person. Basic and down-to-earth may be a better way to say it.

Glorydaz, I am simple too. You have nothing to fear of how I will judge you according to the word simple. I would not presume to judge you especially according to such carnal and worldy or intellectual measures of comparison.

Take, for instance, when you say sin is a deception. Are you saying all sin originates with satan...the deceiver?

A very good question. I am saying every sin ever committed was based upon believing something was true that is not true. Still I believe Satan is where men got it from for I happen to believe Satan is, or was, ignorant of certain necessary knowledge of God but was too proud to admit it. He introduced the subtle doubt in God that eventually caused Adam to feel something he had never experienced and I don"t think he liked it. Distrust in the maker.

And is that why you think the natural man isn't responsible for his actions? If that's what, indeed, you think?

Another on point question. I don't think men are responsible for their ignorance nor do I believe even Satan is. This effectively mitigates a persons responsibility for their actions done in ignorance, but does not excuse the vanity that worshiped the creation over the Creator, Who is Holy forever. I believe this ignorance is a consequence of being created and taking our Creator totally for granted from the beginning in innocence. This makes Satan's vanity the geatest harm because he was higher than man. And I even believe God created the angels first for this very reason. For the knowledge I am speaking about which we and the angels were ignorant of, was the person of God, hence we all exist in need of a proper image for unbreakable trust to exist in all Truth so that what began in doubt would be eliminated. This knowledge came in the Christ, a man, and his faith was in an undying Love. Love causes us to care about how our actions affect others. Therefore I only firmly reject the notion that men are responsible because they have the power of reason. In my view, reasoning actually tramples upon the Love that is God when reasoning upon a false image of God. That is why the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men.

We know satan isn't God. He can't be everywhere at once. He comes and goes... a "roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" Even though he has an army of fallen angels, they can't be everywhere at once.

No they can't be everywhere at once and they have their own places on earth where they are more prominent. However sin stays with a man wherever he goes as long as he is deceived by a lie. Satan need not be present for one to be a child of Satan. One need only hold the same false image of god.

James says man can deceive himself, "James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

Yes a man can deceive himself which is not evidence of a freewill but rather a helplessly ignorant soul that needs God to reveal the things hidden in the dark corners of the heart that we otherwise would not know are there. The same false image of God is the source of the vanity, that is the pride that denies the Truth and deceives itself.

There are three things man has to deal with...the world, the flesh, and the devil. For the unbeliever, satan's main job is to blind them to the gospel message, but these speak to the world and the flesh.

Look at the context here of what Paul is saying. You and I can discuss what is Love all day here on this forum, but to go out and act out of that Love is what we know in Truth is required. Hence Jesus says, Why call me Lord Lord and not do what I say?

Their own fleshly appetites and exposure to the ungodly world system are temptations enough, and the more man ignores his conscience the more seared it becomes.

A seared conscience would be one that has drained the heart of feeling and replaced it with intellectual reasonings that justify the unwillingness to act out of mercy and compassion. Such as, "they deserve what they get because they freely chose to go that way". Such a statement does not hold any thought that we were all that way lest God reveal Himself and reveal ourselves.

Yes, some scripture reflects that, but you can't discount the fact that God gave men a conscience, therefore man can't claim he has been deceived and doesn't know any better.

I would agree with you on this to a point. The conscience is Love and is meant to correct, not blame the creation. For if mankind cannot claim he has been deceived in a false image of God, then the accuser is right and the Gospel is a lie. If we knowingly and willingly do hurtful things, Love is not present, nor is there a conscience. For man must recognize love to distinguish right from wrong. If we think we can choose to have Love we remain deceived. Therefore the image of the Christ that would die for our sins is a fool if we were not deceived. For there would be no power in the Truth to change a man if it was a man's will power that fought and conquered sin. Moreover why does the bible claim the whole world was deceived?

There are uncounted people in the Bible who followed their conscience, and many still do...although none can follow it perfectly because the flesh is weak...nor could the Jews follow it perfectly.

Here I must say that the conscience works only if complimented by the Truth. In other words, to the impure of heart nothing is pure, and anything can be and even must be scrutinized endlessly. There are many who reveal how they view sin by seeing it always in everyone else but not in themselves. I don't think you're that way.

But not all people are idol worshipers. There is an innate craving to find God among God's creation, which is why idols came about to begin with.

This is a great and insightful statement. A Truth worthy to build upon in one's reasoning. I would only add that those who are not idol worshippers, are not so, only because God has revealed Himself to them.

And I sincerely appologize if I've been insensitive, Childeye. I must confess, it's hard over the internet to remember there is a real live person on the other end of the line. I have no doubt we'd both be a little less abrupt if we were sitting down face to face. ;)

I understand completely. I accept your apology, however it is not necessary that you should apologize. You have simply been forthright and I would not have it any other way. I thank you for your sincere concern for me and only hope you accept my concern for you as sincere as well. That is the Spirit of Christ in both of us.

I'm surprised you took it that way.

Either Adam was unconfident in ignorance, or is knowingly active in the most extreme treachery.

Disobedience, as I see it, has nothing to do with being a co-conspirator with Satan. As I tried to point out above, Adam is no different than we are. God gave him a free will to obey or disobey God.

This statement makes me shake my head in bewilderment. No where will you find anybody in scripture saying God gave men the desire or will to disobey Him nor classify it as freedom. They called it sin. The presence of sin is not under our control and so also is righteousness a gift. Out of foreknowledge of our ignorance, He is faithful and longsuffering towards us because of our foreseen and therefore inevitable disobedience. Scripture however does record that Satan proposed disobedience under the guise of freedom so as to be greater things, not to become lesser.

He disobeyed God...so did Eve in a different way. But God had given a command, and Adam was to be the head of the woman, so the greater fault lies with him. Just as it does in a marriage today. It wasn't just that satan said they would be like God...Eve saw the fruit looked good to eat. Genesis 3:6 - "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

I can see we have a very different view of what happened in the garden. It means nothing that we disobeyed, but rather that we accepted the false image of god presented by Satan. For that is the what fascilitated the disobedience. Sure maybe for the woman the good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and desired to make one wise is relevant, being she is the woman and a piece of the man. But to Adam, his soul concern was whether his view of God was accurate,for Satan's subtlty was to implant a view of God that was not favorable compared to the one Adam held. That is why Adam should have trusted himself rather than follow the woman. That is Adam's error, he had no confidence in himself and sought his confidence through the woman, who as a piece of man did not even consider Adam's predicament.

NOTICE....the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those are the same things we face.

Yes we do, but these are all illusions. I would say here that there is a difference between choosing freely and being forced to choose. Freewill would be choosing freely and determinism is being forced to choose. It would eliminate much of the semantics involved with the word choice if we identify the proper use of these terms. For although these two terms are opposites in meaning , still they both have choice. So it is, we are forced to choose whether we are for or against Jesus, for even if we don't choose to be for him we have chosen to be against him. And so is it in all moral reasoning. Adam was forced to choose to trust himself or not and he did not stand with any confidence. Give him a break, he did not know it would ever be required of him and he was therefore, in his ignorance caught off guard. I truly don't believe anyone else woould have faired better except the Christ, who of course knowing God firsthand was not going to be fooled.

Naturally, satan was there in the garden...he wanted to destroy God's plan for fellowship with those He'd created in His image. He was also present to stop Jesus (from the time He was born until He died on the cross).

The motives of Satan are an excellent subject for illumination. I know what I have been taught, but scripture does not speak of Satan's motives. I personally believe he was jealous of Adam because Adam was content in his lowly station while Lucifer was dissatisfied in his lofty one.
Anyway, I'll have to get to the rest of your post tomorrow. Maybe the next time, we could just kinda cover one or two points. This gets so complicated with all these quotes.[/QUOTE]

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz, I am simple too. You have nothing to fear of how I will judge you according to the word simple. I would not presume to judge you especially according to such carnal and worldy or intellectual measures of comparison.


A very good question. I am saying every sin ever committed was based upon believing something was true that is not true. Still I believe Satan is where men got it from for I happen to believe Satan is, or was, ignorant of certain necessary knowledge of God but was too proud to admit it. He introduced the subtle doubt in God that eventually caused Adam to feel something he had never experienced and I don"t think he liked it. Distrust in the maker.

Another on point question. I don't think men are responsible for their ignorance nor do I believe even Satan is. This effectively mitigates a persons responsibility for their actions done in ignorance, but does not excuse the vanity that worshiped the creation over the Creator, Who is Holy forever. I believe this ignorance is a consequence of being created and taking our Creator totally for granted from the beginning in innocence. This makes Satan's vanity the geatest harm because he was higher than man. And I even believe God created the angels first for this very reason. For the knowledge I am speaking about which we and the angels were ignorant of, was the person of God, hence we all exist in need of a proper image for unbreakable trust to exist in all Truth so that what began in doubt would be eliminated. This knowledge came in the Christ, a man, and his faith was in an undying Love. Love causes us to care about how our actions affect others. Therefore I only firmly reject the notion that men are responsible because they have the power of reason. In my view, reasoning actually tramples upon the Love that is God when reasoning upon a false image of God. That is why the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men.

No they can't be everywhere at once and they have their own places on earth where they are more prominent. However sin stays with a man wherever he goes as long as he is deceived by a lie. Satan need not be present for one to be a child of Satan. One need only hold the same false image of god.

Yes a man can deceive himself which is not evidence of a freewill but rather a helplessly ignorant soul that needs God to reveal the things hidden in the dark corners of the heart that we otherwise would not know are there. The same false image of God is the source of the vanity, that is the pride that denies the Truth and deceives itself.

Look at the context here of what Paul is saying. You and I can discuss what is Love all day here on this forum, but to go out and act out of that Love is what we know in Truth is required. Hence Jesus says, Why call me Lord Lord and not do what I say?

A seared conscience would be one that has drained the heart of feeling and replaced it with intellectual reasonings that justify the unwillingness to act out of mercy and compassion. Such as, "they deserve what they get because they freely chose to go that way". Such a statement does not hold any thought that we were all that way lest God reveal Himself and reveal ourselves.



I would agree with you on this to a point. The conscience is Love and is meant to correct, not blame the creation. For if mankind cannot claim he has been deceived in a false image of God, then the accuser is right and the Gospel is a lie. If we knowingly and willingly do hurtful things, Love is not present, nor is there a conscience. For man must recognize love to distinguish right from wrong. If we think we can choose to have Love we remain deceived. Therefore the image of the Christ that would die for our sins is a fool if we were not deceived. For there would be no power in the Truth to change a man if it was a man's will power that fought and conquered sin. Moreover why does the bible claim the whole world was deceived?


Here I must say that the conscience works only if complimented by the Truth. In other words, to the impure of heart nothing is pure, and anything can be and even must be scrutinized endlessly. There are many who reveal how they view sin by seeing it always in everyone else but not in themselves. I don't think you're that way.

This is a great and insightful statement. A Truth worthy to build upon in one's reasoning. I would only add that those who are not idol worshippers, are not so, only because God has revealed Himself to them.



I understand completely. I accept your apology, however it is not necessary that you should apologize. You have simply been forthright and I would not have it any other way. I thank you for your sincere concern for me and only hope you accept my concern for you as sincere as well. That is the Spirit of Christ in both of us.


Either Adam was unconfident in ignorance, or is knowingly active in the most extreme treachery.

This statement makes me shake my head in bewilderment. No where will you find anybody in scripture saying God gave men the desire or will to disobey Him nor classify it as freedom. They called it sin. The presence of sin is not under our control and so also is righteousness a gift. Out of foreknowledge of our ignorance, He is faithful and longsuffering towards us because of our foreseen and therefore inevitable disobedience. Scripture however does record that Satan proposed disobedience under the guise of freedom so as to be greater things, not to become lesser.


I can see we have a very different view of what happened in the garden. It means nothing that we disobeyed, but rather that we accepted the false image of god presented by Satan. For that is the what fascilitated the disobedience. Sure maybe for the woman the good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and desired to make one wise is relevant, being she is the woman and a piece of the man. But to Adam, his soul concern was whether his view of God was accurate,for Satan's subtlty was to implant a view of God that was not favorable compared to the one Adam held. That is why Adam should have trusted himself rather than follow the woman. That is Adam's error, he had no confidence in himself and sought his confidence through the woman, who as a piece of man did not even consider Adam's predicament.

Yes we do, but these are all illusions. I would say here that there is a difference between choosing freely and being forced to choose. Freewill would be choosing freely and determinism is being forced to choose. It would eliminate much of the semantics involved with the word choice if we identify the proper use of these terms. For although these two terms are opposites in meaning , still they both have choice. So it is, we are forced to choose whether we are for or against Jesus, for even if we don't choose to be for him we have chosen to be against him. And so is it in all moral reasoning. Adam was forced to choose to trust himself or not and he did not stand with any confidence. Give him a break, he did not know it would ever be required of him and he was therefore, in his ignorance caught off guard. I truly don't believe anyone else woould have faired better except the Christ, who of course knowing God firsthand was not going to be fooled.

The motives of Satan are an excellent subject for illumination. I know what I have been taught, but scripture does not speak of Satan's motives. I personally believe he was jealous of Adam because Adam was content in his lowly station while Lucifer was dissatisfied in his lofty one.
Anyway, I'll have to get to the rest of your post tomorrow. Maybe the next time, we could just kinda cover one or two points. This gets so complicated with all these quotes.

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Childeye, I just now found your reply and I will have to take some time to respond. I would like it if you could back up anything that you've said here with scripture. To be honest, I'm not even sure where to start, but I will definately give it a more thorough consideration than I can give it tonight.