Romans, Ch. 1: what does it mean to you?

[Vic C.]

Quath had posted this in another thread...

2. By the same logic, the homosexuality rules from the OT were given to the Jews, not Gentiles, so they may practice it. What you show is that homosexuality should be allowed just like shrimp eating should be allowed. (At the very least, you can not use the OT to justify that homosexuality is not ok.)

My answer... I can use the New Testament though, correct?

I have posted this passage so many times, yet it goes unnoticed for the most part. MY QUESTION: What does this passage mean to each one of you in light of whether or not the act of homosexuality is or is not a sin?

Romans 1:18-32
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Quath]

I am curious as to how Christians interpret Rom 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections" or in the NIV "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts". Does this mean that God made them do these things? Would God make people do stuff that disgust Him?

Anyway, for the main topic of this thread: Christians that accept homosexiality seem to interpret this as God condemning heterosexuals leaving Christianity and enganing in Pagan worship such as the homosexual orgies.

So the "natural" comes in because the people were heterosexual, not homosexual. The "perversion" is the pagan worship in an orgy.

Personally, I can see both camp's point of view and could see the translation going either way.

Quath

 

[bibleberean]

It is the most obvious fact that the murder in the OT and murder in the NT is still unlawful.

The Gentiles are not under laws that were meant exclusively for Israel such as the Sabbath or not eating pork.

However unless a person is completely biblically illiterate they would know beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt that degenerate sexual practices are still wrong.

For instance concerning the gentiles and the law of Moses.


Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:...

...Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Fornication Porneia

illicit sexual intercourse

a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

2) metaph. the worship of idols

a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Is this that difficult for people to grasp and see?

Oh I forgot...

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[stovebolts]

I have posted this passage so many times, yet it goes unnoticed for the most part. MY QUESTION: What does this passage mean to each one of you in light of whether or not the act of homosexuality is or is not a sin?

Romans 1:18-32

Wow, you’re actually asking for an opinion? :-D

Ok, here’s what it says to me in reference to homosexuality. (Highly condensed)

Regardless if you know of God or if you have accepted Him; God has given each person the ability to know Him in one form or the other since the beginning of time.
This being the case, He has embedded within us the knowledge to discern between right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral natural an un-natural.
Homosexuality is not natural as it goes against the basic principle of survival. To survive is to pro-create. To not intentionally procreate is to end a species or a genetic line... This is a no brainer and simple reasoning deducts that homosexuality is not natural. But, I believe that scripture speaks about ones inside feelings and not his ability to reason and I believe that when one goes against that tug inside that tells them it's wrong, that's God revealing to the individual that it just isn't natural... verse 18-19.
The rest of the verses confirm into practical reasoning (laying it our in plain words) what is wrong and goes on to explain how we justify these feeling of wrongdoing hence becoming dull to the voice inside while we transform into fools and slaves to our own self righteousness. This occurs because when we do find out that something isn't right, instead of giving the glory to God; we give the glory to ourselves or other gods such as science, government, society etc.

 

[lovely]

First of all we need to make it clear that we are righteous only because of our faith...through the blood of the Lamb.

With that being said, the unrighteous, or those who hold their truth in unrighteousness are the ones who's God's wrath is revealed from heaven against.

They have the truth in them because everything that has been made knows of God, and of right and wrong, and understands God's power and authority. They have no excuse. Yet, knowing all of this they do not acknowledge Him, nor are they thankful...they think only of themselves... MAN-centered...humanistic in their mindset. This foolishness causes their hearts to darken..the beginning light in them became less. They turn from God completely in the name of human intellect, and became truly foolish in the wise things of God. This leads to them reducing God to things they could understand, or dream up, that God is like corruptible man, animals, etc. Essentially everything we can conceive, but not who He really is. It reminds me of the study of science.

God gives them over to their sin, and that has causes them to give into any lust they have...even things that are biologically unnatural. And they justify it with their MAN-centered intellectual truth. They dishonor even their own bodies. They twist God's truth...to make it a lie...and then they care more for the creation than they do the one who Created it. Because of this they are vile, and they have been given over to their vileness...they love the wickedness that they do, and love others who do it even though they know that God will judge them, and that they deserve death...but they do not keep this forefront in their thoughts anymore.

Blessings

 

[bibleberean]

The meaning in these verses is obvious my opinion is irrelevant.

What do these verses mean to me? They mean what they say and they say what they mean. It says homosexual practices are a sin.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Why would it be hard to see that God says those which commit these things are "worthy of death"?

One of those things is fornication.

Fornication Porneia

illicit sexual intercourse

a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

2) metaph. the worship of idols

a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

There are not many ways to interpret this passage. It is pretty cut and dry.

 

[Vic C.]

Wow, you’re actually asking for an opinion? :-D

The meaning in these verses is obvious my opinion is irrelevant....

...There are not many ways to interpret this passage. It is pretty cut and dry.

I guess not opinion, more like, "how do you understand this passage". I should have said that in my post. :-D

 

[Soma-Sight]

vic,

This is a bit off topic but.....

This verse is one of my favorites!

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


To me it implies that God could be recognized through the power of His creative abilities to early "non - Jew" societies.

Those that were blind to this turned further away from the Truth and embraced man - boy love like we see in the Greek and various other cultures......

Interesting.....

 

[bibleberean]

Wow, you’re actually asking for an opinion? :-D

The meaning in these verses is obvious my opinion is irrelevant....

...There are not many ways to interpret this passage. It is pretty cut and dry.

I guess not opinion, more like, "how do you understand this passage". I should have said that in my post. :-D

Greetings Vic,

Here is how I understand it.

God's wrath is against those who deny His truth and don't want to think about that which He has shown to them.

Those who don't like to keep God in their thinking have their foolish hearts darkened. And there is no excuse for not knowing that there is a God or that He can be understood.

Also the people that deny God and worship His creation (Carl Sagan for example) end up becoming fools who think they are pretty smart. (read some of the posts of atheists and idolaters in these forums) and as a result go deeper and deeper into sin.

You will see these types promoting homosexual marriages and trying to justify sin. They are worthy of death according to the passage...

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Just read any thread that mentions degenerate same sex practices. They will be right there double talking and twisting scripture to help people fall into the sin of Sodom... unnatural vile fools...

That is a short answer as to how I understand the passage.

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah Vic, I should not have assumed you meant "opinion" :wink:

BTW:
I heard on the radio this morning (89X, Windsor Ont.) that two men were going to marry each other since same sex marriage is legel there (Canada). Both men are straight. One is in his late 50's and the other around 67 I believe.

They say that they are getting married for the tax breaks and the health benefits that come along with marriage. Ironically, the gay community is extreemly angry about this and they are trying to stop it from happening! LOL :D

What in the world is our world coming to? Looks like a repeat of Rome...

Just so people know where I stand on this, I think that it's sick and an abomination. It demeans what marriage represents. It's bad enough that two people of the same sex (having sexual relations with each other) are able to marry but at least they have 'feeling' toward one another. Not to say that I agree with this, but now marriage is being watered down to the degree that it's simply a tax break... it turns my stomach.

 

[Rick W]

NIV

Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

No matter how you slice it the practice of homosexuality is a sin. Adultery is a sin, murder is a sin, pride is a sin, stealing is a sin.... all of us have sinned and will sin. The difference is recognising the sin for what it is, a sin and asking God for mercy and forgiveness. But that would require a belief that there is a God in the first place. There are those who wish to twist scripture so God's Word doesn't comdemn the practice. But clearly, it's a sin like all the others.
The bible says it's a sin and our society says it isn't so therein lies the conflict. Instead of people trying to twist scripture to conform to society why not conform society to recognising the practice as a sin? That's not what people want, at all. That will never do. Society can't be wrong. That can never happen can it?
The sin of the practice is found in the OT. But let's just ignore the OT because it doesn't say what we want it to. Ok, so the sin is found in the NT. Here again the bible can't mean what it says it does. So the NT is wrong too. It doesn't take much to realize the sin is not what people want to hear and it sure doesn't matter what the bible says, anytime or anywhere.
Scripture will not change to tickle the ear of the reader.

 

[Rick W]

Ironically, the gay community is extreemly angry about this and they are trying to stop it from happening! LOL :D

You can't legislate "love". Nowhere in past or present law is love mentioned, on the application or license to marry. These two are well within the legal parameters set forth by the law of which the gays fought for. The ethics of marriage can not be written but resides in the hearts of those who define marriage within themselves as "right" and lawful. These two fellows are "lawful" and if there's a difference of opinion about the ethical part of it within the gay community well, maybe a little tolerance is needed.

 

[Vic C.]

They say that they are getting married for the tax breaks and the health benefits that come along with marriage. Ironically, the gay community is extreemly angry about this and they are trying to stop it from happening! LOL

:-D

As "Canadian" singer/songwriter Alanis Morissette one wrote and sung:

"Isn't it ironic ... don't you think ?"

 

[Quath]

As "Canadian" singer/songwriter Alanis Morissette one wrote and sung:

"Isn't it ironic ... don't you think ?"

Bleh. That song should have been renamed "Isn't it tragic" because she showed no ironies.

Sorry. Pet peeve.

Quath

 

[stovebolts]

Yes Quath, As Pink Floyd once sung
For all you touch, and all you see...
Is all your life, will ever be.

Peace 8-)

 

[Quath]

Yes Quath, As Pink Floyd once sung
For all you touch, and all you see...
Is all your life, will ever be.

Peace 8-)

I love that album. hat is when i learned there was no dark side to the moon.

Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
When I come home cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire
Far away across the fields
The tolling of an iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells

Quath

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah Quath, were gonna get yelled at for pulling the thread :wink:

I wore three of those tapes out. I used to drive long haul...

Now, as Paul Harvey would say, The rest of the story.

Run rabbit run
Dig that hole, forget the sun,
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down it's time to dig another one
For long you live and high you fly
but only if you ride the tide
And balanced on the biggest wave
You race towards an early grave.

Quath, Jesus is our rest. I know you can't touch him and I know you can't see him, but your life can be much more than what you can touch and see, for He truly is a reality.

Jesus Said,
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Tic Toc, Were still praying for you!

 

[Vic C.]

...Yeah Quath, were gonna get yelled at for pulling the thread :wink: ...

Back on topic. Thank you. :-D