Bible Study Romans Chapter 14.

[ChristineES]

The sermon at the Church house I attended this weekend was about this Chapter in Romans. If you read it, you will note that it says to be accepting of another's differences in worship. It talks about how some believers will not eat meat while others who are stronger in faith see no problem in eating the meat. Paul said that neither was wrong

And receive him who is weak in the faith, but not to judgments of your thoughts. (Rom 14:1)
For indeed one believes to eat all things; but being weak, another eats vegetables. (Rom 14:2)
Do not let him who eats despise him who does not eat; and do not let him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has received him. (Rom 14:3)

It was also mentioned that we should not be stumbling blocks to other believers:
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak. (Rom 14:21)

I take this verse to mean that if you eat or drink something to make someone else stumble, then you should not do it, at least in front of them. For example, you don't think it is a sin to drink wine, but your brother in Christ does think it is a sin, so you would not drink it in front of him.

Any thoughts on this subject? I think it would make a good study.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Christine:

If one does believe in drinking wine, but another does not, and you drink in front of them, that is not being a stumbling block. That is being an offense to the other person. The reason is because their mind is already made up. One cannot be a stumbling block to such a person.

A person that stumbles is one whose mind is not made up, or they waver and partake not in faith. In other words, they do it because big brother is doing it--- follow the leader so-to-speak. Paul then warns that such a person is not doing it in faith---- we are to live by continuous faith. And that lack of faith becomes a stumblingblock because of the other's actions.

I wish this passage would not be quoted so often by those who confuse offense with stumbling. It becomes a self-righteous weapon to limit the freedom of Christians who really live by faith instead of legalism.

 

[ChristineES]

I believe that doing something that offensive could very well be a stumbling block to some. I would not want to take a chance on that. We have to consider those who are weak in faith, as Paul directed.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm not sure what you had in mind when you used the term "that offensive", but a Christian that has supposed scruples about what they consider wrong cannot be a stumbling victim because they made up their mind. They are merely offended. In that case, anyone can claim certain behavior is offensive to them and thus try to restrict the true Christian's freedom in Christ. One can see this going on today in society as well. One cannot say or do much any longer because it may offend the next person.

Take note---- the word "offended" that Paul used is not the same one that I am using. The translation in that respect means to "entice" by tripping up. If a Christian uses their freedom to trip up another weaker brother, then their freedom can be spoken evil of, and thus the refraining. However, if someone just wants to judge a Christian that freely partakes, that in itself is not an excuse to refrain. Such a person that is offended is just judging (and maybe being anal about it). I personally do not waste my time caring what they think because everything is wrong to them.

 

[ChristineES]

The word "that" was a typo. :

I am glad that you are very strong in faith, but I am still talking about folks who are weak in faith. It would not offend me, not much offends me anymore, but I like to think about those who are easily offended. My biggest problem is saying "God-D***" I don't normally swear except for this, and even though I only do it when angry, that does not make it right. I am afraid to say it in front of someone who is weak in faith.
You are right, a Christian should not be stumbled by what others say or do, but the fact remains that there are some Christians like that. Hopefully, weak Christians will get stronger as time goes by with help (from God and from others).

 

[tim-from-pa]

I guess I sometimes let the GD word slip as well. ;-)

But then I say to the Lord, is this something that you would damn? Sometimes it is! :-D :

 

[Georges]

And receive him who is weak in the faith, but not to judgments of your thoughts. (Rom 14:1)
For indeed one believes to eat all things; but being weak, another eats vegetables. (Rom 14:2)
Do not let him who eats despise him who does not eat; and do not let him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has received him. (Rom 14:3)


Any thoughts on this subject? I think it would make a good study.

I have a thought....

Paul who openly mocks the Apostles authority in Jerusalem, took this cryptic shot a James....

James, a Nazarite since birth according to history, never cut his hair, and only at vegetables.

Another shot....Paul's mention that long hair on a man is a shame.

History documents that James had long hair (Nazarite).


Bring on the heat....where's my pals....

 

[guibox]

I think we really need to be careful in trying so hard to apply this chapter to our everyday lives. Yes, I guess the principle behind it can be applied, but not necessarily the issues.

We must understand the context Paul was speaking this in and what issues he was dealing with.

Idol worship

The Jews were adamant that meat sacrificed to idols was 'unclean' and should not be eaten. Paul addresses this is in other passages as well. THe Jews were saying that it was wrong to eat this meat. Paul was saying, 'Who cares? They're just wood anyway. Go ahead and eat it if you want!"

feast days and holy days

The Jews were also adamant on the Gentiles keeping many of their feast days and celebrations days as well as their fasts. Paul was saying that these days were a matter of choice, and not required observance.

I have seen soooo many abuse this passage to justify eating anything they want to condemning vegetarians as a false gospel.

This was not the case of what Paul was dealing with. It was Jewish requirements on Gentile believers. We must be careful not to wield Paul out of context like a club.

 

[ChristineES]

I personally wasn't using the chapter literally. I see people have little arguments over things that don't effect their salvation. Like the little argument over on the other forum about whether is Sabbath is Saturday or Sunday, and other things such as whether you believe in OSAS or you believe you can lose it, whether you should drink wine or grape juice at communion, and so many other things. These are the things the preacher brought up at the sermon I went to, and I personally agreed with him. What is important is that we worship God, follow Jesus, and whatever. That is what the discussion was started as.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I personally wasn't using the chapter literally. I see people have little arguments over things that don't effect their salvation. Like the little argument over on the other forum about whether is Sabbath is Saturday or Sunday, and other things such as whether you believe in OSAS or you believe you can lose it, whether you should drink wine or grape juice at communion, and so many other things. These are the things the preacher brought up at the sermon I went to, and I personally agreed with him. What is important is that we worship God, follow Jesus, and whatever. That is what the discussion was started as.

Christine, Christine, Christine. Not everything we believe or don't believe has to hinge on whether or not it's a salvation issue. If you worship God, follow Jesus (as you said) then you will WANT to believe the truth and not some traditional Christian 'fairy tale'. These type 'fairy stories' abound within mainstream Christianity and I, for one, will not go along with them simply because they may not be a salvation issue. We need to be serious in our beliefs and if we see something being taught that is not true we need to object most strongly to it. Why believe a lie when it's just as easy to believe the truth?

If your preacher is not preaching biblical truths or telling you that it's okay to go along with traditional myths (simply because they may not be a salvation issue) then he needs to be reprimanded. If he is telling you that the rejection of God's Sabbath by most of mainstream Christianity is a 'ho-hum' (yawn) 'nothing' topic because it isn't a salvation issue then he needs to be reprimanded. If he is teaching that the blind acceptance of any 'lie' - and by doing so is PERPETUATING a lie - is okay because it isn't a salvation issue then he should be reprimanded. It's THIS kind of teaching that has made Christianity little or no different from the thinking of the world. The majority of Christians have no idea WHAT they believe any more. There HAS TO BE a serious belief in the Bible by serious Christians.

You said, "What is important is that we worship God, follow Jesus, and whatever." The 'whatever' of your statement is more important than you probably realize, Christine. By the way, just what ARE the salvation issues to you? Just curious.

 

[ChristineES]

Why does everyone (well, not everyone) on this board think that only they have the truth and no one else does?
The Preacher of this Church (I am not a member of this Church, and this was the first time I ever heard him) was an excellent preacher. The doctrine of this Church is bibically sound as far as I can see.

No one ever wants to discuss the bible here, this forum is called Bible Study, but they should change its name because no one ever studies the bible here. :o :wink:

 

[Jay T]

Just remember about God's warning, concerning Paul's writings......
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[cyberjosh]

If one does believe in drinking wine, but another does not, and you drink in front of them, that is not being a stumbling block. That is being an offense to the other person. The reason is because their mind is already made up. One cannot be a stumbling block to such a person.

Try not to mince words so much, you are making a distinction which isn't there, you are only evaluating degrees of tripping up. Both "Stumbling block" and "offence" are translated from the words skandalizo & skandalon alternately, and mean the same thing.

And yes, since drinking wine is a personal freedom then it can be abused to the destruction of the weaker's concience. And drinking wine actually can be sinful to a specific person, not just because of lack of faith but because they may actually realize that drinking wine causes a vice for them in their life that God wishes them to stay away from, thus is is a personal sin unto themselves. I once spoke to a youth pastor who blew my mind with a very simple and straightforward answer, which I was not expecting, when after discussing this chapter I asked him, "But what do you believe personally, is it wrong for people to drink wine?" He just looked at me and said, "It is for me." I then sat back in my chair and introspectively muttered to myself while taking into account the full impact of that statement, "Good answer." And indeed it was.

 

[Jay T]

I think we really need to be careful in trying so hard to apply this chapter to our everyday lives. Yes, I guess the principle behind it can be applied, but not necessarily the issues.

Yes, satan uses scripture to suit his onw purposes all the time.

We must understand the context Paul was speaking this in and what issues he was dealing with.

Idol worship

The Jews were adamant that meat sacrificed to idols was 'unclean' and should not be eaten. Paul addresses this is in other passages as well. THe Jews were saying that it was wrong to eat this meat. Paul was saying, 'Who cares? They're just wood anyway. Go ahead and eat it if you want!"

feast days and holy days

The Jews were also adamant on the Gentiles keeping many of their feast days and celebrations days as well as their fasts. Paul was saying that these days were a matter of choice, and not required observance.

I have seen soooo many abuse this passage to justify eating anything they want to condemning vegetarians as a false gospel.

God is concerned with what we eat....think....and, everything else we do, as it reflects back upon HIMSELF !

God orginally set man up as a vegetarian, as it is the best for the manitainance of the human body, to be healthy, free from all diseases.
The Bible points this fact out clearly.

 

[ChristineES]

Didn't you know that when men had sacrifices in the OT, they ATE the meat they burned all the fat off of?

I honestly don't know where people get some of their beliefs, it is kind of a mystery. Certainly if you have the exact quote for your claims, I would be happy to read them.

I certainly have nothing against vegetarians, whether for religious, health reasons.

 

[Jay T]

Didn't you know that when men had sacrifices in the OT, they ATE the meat they burned all the fat off of?

God has NEVER given permission for men/women to eat flesh foods, with either the fat or blood in them.

I honestly don't know where people get some of their beliefs, it is kind of a mystery. Certainly if you have the exact quote for your claims, I would be happy to read them.

Why did Christ destroyed these people ?

Numbers 11:31 And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let [them] fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits [high] upon the face of the earth.
11:32 And the people stood up all that day, and all [that] night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread [them] all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
11:33 And while the flesh [was] yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

I certainly have nothing against vegetarians, whether for religious, health reasons.

15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.