Bible Study Romans chapter 7

[jgredline]

At the outset, let me start by saying that I am a sinner saved by Grace through the blood that was shed on the cross of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I say this because there is a teaching out there that once a person is born again, they are no longer sinners.
There are teachings out there that Churches should not preach on sin, because it leads to more sin.
There is teaching out there that says, christians should not point out the sins of other Christians because in doing so, they sin and thus both loose the blessing.

What blessing? I don't know.
wHAT i do know is that the above statements that are in bold are not scriptural.

I will do my best to present the differant views of this awesome chapter.
One thing about Gods word is that it is so precise that it will interpret itself. The book of Romans is the book I recommend to new believers along with John because while it is theologically rich, it is also very simple.

I will be using and doing much of this study in Greek and simple english.
My Prayer is that this thread will be a blessing for many and fopr years to come. I would encourage participation and comments. If I make mistakes or there is a differant view, point it out as well.
Blessings.

Romans was written to the believers in Rome. This book was NOT written for the non believer although many parts of this book can apply to them, but its important to know that this book was and is for the Child of God.

Romans 1:1-12
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers, 10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established- 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.


So clearly we can see who this letter was written to..
If you are a child of God, then this letter was written to you, so pay attention.
This ends the OP.

 

[jgredline]

This is going to take a little while to do. So much to say and so little time.
While there are many views to Romans chapter 7 I will touch on only three of them. When it is all laid out, there is only one view that fits with out any scripture twisting or reading into things that are not there. This will all come out as we go through this chapter, verse by verse. If you notice I have also added the begining of Romans 8 because it is a part of Romans 7. This is a case where the Chapter break is in the wrong place..

1) The first view is that Paul is speaking of his Pre-born again life.
2) The second is that Paul is speaking of the Carnal man who is born again.
3) Paul is speaking as a Christian who is still a sinner, going through the sanctification process of life.
The second and third views are very similar and in either case, does not make much differance because they are still both Christians. The question here is this. Who is Paul describing here. According to this Chapter Paul is describing himself as we will see.

I have copied and pasted this entire chapter and I will highlight a few key words that the apostle used. Words that anyone with a third grade reading level can understand. Look at the context also and his form of speech. Pay close attention to the personal pro nouns and the use of the present tense.


Freed from the Law
Romans 7:1-25 NKJV
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.


Sin's Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death (notice the past tense here. This is very important as we will see)in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal(Notice the present tense and who he is speaking of), sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


Free from Indwelling Sin

Romans 8:1-8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


I think its fair to say that Paul is speaking of himself and he calls himself a wretched sinner.
Starting tomarrow I will break it down.

 

[jgredline]

Romans 7:13- romans 8:8 as this is one section. NKJV for text but I am refering to my Greek bible.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was (Look at the past tense of this verse. Paul here is speaking of the Law in the past tense and how it brought out trully how sinful he is as we will see) producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin(notice the present tense here. he recognizes that he is sold under sin. The Law reminded him of this). 15 For what I am doing (again present tense), I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do (again the present tense). 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Thus the conflict between the two natures rages on. Paul finds himself failing to do the good he wants to do, and instead doing the evil that he despises.
If I could paraphrase this verse as follows: “Now if I (the old nature) do what I (the new nature) don’t want to do, it is no longer I (the person) who do it, but sin that dwells within me.†Again let it be clear that Paul is not excusing himself or disclaiming responsibility. He is simply stating that he has not found deliverance from the power of indwelling sin, and that when he sins, it is not with the desire of the new man.

Paul finds a principle or law at work in his life causing all his good intentions to end in failure. When he wants to do what is right, he ends up by sinning.
As far as his new nature is concerned, he delights in the law of God. He knows that the law is holy, and that it is an expression of the will of God. He wants to do God’s will.
But he sees a contrary principle at work in his life, striving against the new nature, and making him a captive of indwelling sin.


24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now Paul lets out his famous, eloquent groan. He feels as if he has a decomposing body strapped to his back. That body, of course, is the old nature in all its corruption. In his wretchedness he acknowledges that he is unable to deliver himself from this offensive, repulsive bondage. He must have help from some outside source. (who might that be? We will see)

The verse summarizes the conflict between the two natures before deliverance is realized. With the renewed mind, or the new nature, the believer serves the law of God, but with the flesh or (old nature) the law of sin. Not till we reach the next chapter do we find the way of deliverance explained. Now before we get into the chapter 8 that is a continuance of chapter seven it is critical to understand and what the apostle is saying here, that we are sinners, but a Child of God will not live in sin. A child of God will not sin willfully, a child of God will not plan a robbery or a murder. Those would be pre-medditated sins. The old nature is and always will be a part of us until we are home. While we live in these mortal bodies we will be sinners.


8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Notice right away that the personal pronouns that were so prominent in chapter 7 largely disappear, and that the Holy Spirit becomes the dominant Person. This is an important key to understanding the passage. Victory is not in ourselves but in the Holy Spirit, who indwells us......

Paul now climbs the heights with the triumphant shout, There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus!
First, there is no divine condemnation as far as our sin is concerned, because we are in Christ.
There was condemnation as long as we were in our first federal head, Adam. But now we are in Christ and therefore are as free from condemnation as He is. also it means that there is no need for the kind of self-condemnation which Paul described in chapter 7. We may pass through a Romans 7 experience, unable to fulfill the law’s requirements by our own effort, but we don’t have to stay there. I have told many Christians to stop living in Romans 7 and begin to live in Romans 8!!!!!!!
Verse 2 explains why there is no condemnation.
The Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. These are two opposite laws or principles. The characteristic principle of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers for holy living. The characteristic principle of indwelling sin is to drag a person down to death. It is like the law of gravity. When you throw a ball into the air, it comes back down because it is heavier than the air it displaces. A living bird is also heavier than the air it displaces, but when you toss it up in the air, it flies away. The law of life in the bird overcomes the law of gravity. So the Holy Spirit supplies the risen life of the Lord Jesus, making the believer free from the law of sin and death.
The law could never get people to fulfill its sacred requirements, but grace has succeeded where law failed. Let us see how!
The law could not produce holy living because it was weak through the flesh. The trouble was not with the law but with fallen human nature. The law spoke to men who were already sinners and who were without strength to obey. But God intervened by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Take careful notice that the Lord Jesus did not come in sinful flesh itself but in “the likeness of†sinful flesh. He did no sin (1 Pet. 2:22), He knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21), and there was no sin in Him (1 Jn. 3:5). But by coming into the world in human form, He resembled sinful humanity. As a sacrifice for sin, Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He died not only for the sins which we commit (1 Pet. 3:18) but also for our sin nature. In other words, He died for what we are just as much as for what we have done. In so doing, He condemned sin in the flesh.
Our sin nature is never said to be forgiven; it is condemned. It is the sins that we have committed that are forgiven.
Now the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. As we turn over the control of our lives to the Holy Spirit, He empowers us to love God and to love our neighbor, and that, after all, is what the law requires.

In these first four verses the apostle has gathered together the threads of his argument from 5:12 to 7:25. In 5:12–21 he had discussed the federal headships of Adam and of Christ.

Now in 8:1 he shows that the condemnation which we inherited from our identification with Adam is removed by our identification with Christ. In chapters 6 and 7 he discussed the horrendous problem of sin in the nature. Now he announces triumphantly that the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

In chapter 7 the whole subject of the law was brought up. Now we learn that the law’s requirements are met by the Spirit-controlled life.
Those who live according to the fleshâ€â€that is, those who are unconvertedâ€â€are concerned with the things of the flesh. They obey the impulses of the flesh. They live to gratify the desires of the corrupt nature. They cater to the body, which in a few short years will return to dust.

But those who live according to the Spiritâ€â€that is, true believersâ€â€rise above flesh and blood and live for those things that are eternal. They are occupied with the word of God, prayer, worship, and Christian service. This again does not mean we are sinless, but it means that sin no longer controls us.
To be carnally mindedâ€â€that is, the mental inclination of the fallen natureâ€â€is death. It is death as far as both present enjoyment and ultimate destiny are concerned. It has all the potential of death in it, just like an overdose of poison.
But to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The Spirit of God is the guarantee of life that is life indeed, of peace with God, and of a life of tranquility.
The mind-set of the flesh is death because it is enmity against God. The sinner is a rebel against God and in active hostility to Him. If any proof were needed, it is seen most clearly in the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ. The mind of the flesh is not subject to the law of God. It wants its own will, not God’s will. It wants to be its own master, not to bow to His rule. Its nature is such that it cannot be subject to God’s law. It is not only the inclination that is missing but the power as well. The flesh is dead toward God.
It is no surprise, therefore, that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Think of that! There is nothing an unsaved person can do to please God â€â€no good works, no religious observances, no sacrificial services, absolutely nothing. First he must take the guilty sinner’s place and receive Christ by a definite act of faith. Only then can He win God’s smile of approval.

Wheww. This was long and put my mind to work. What a blessing.

 

[D46]

Romans 7:24 (KJV) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:1 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I remember the first time I read this and read it over again many times seeking an answer from Paul, thinking I had overlooked something. Where's the answer to this problem, Paul? What's the solution? I couldn't find an answer to this inate, sinful nature although I could identify with Paul's problem. Realizing there in no condemnation but, sometimes there are old habits carried over from our youth that we, in later life, still cannot get a handle on and it continues to cause guilt in spite of the verse. I was waiting for some great answer after verse 24 but, for some reason Chapter 8 didn't provide it. He never said, "There is therefore now no guilt to them ......" Guilt will still abide and raise it's ugly head to torment despite the "no condemnation" clause Paul indicated in verse 1 of Chapter 8. It's like a festering cancer that doesn't go away and only provides guilt and a feeling of condemnation since we can't get a better handle on it than we would like to...a real thorn in the flesh and I think many of us still have it(in one form or other) with no hopes of it going away. Some people can do things and not feel much if any guilt or condemnation because, "Its all under the blood". That doesn't help others. Hope that made sense as I was beating around the bush a bit.

 

[jgredline]

Romans 7:24 (KJV) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:1 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I remember the first time I read this and read it over again many times seeking an answer from Paul, thinking I had overlooked something. Where's the answer to this problem, Paul? What's the solution? I couldn't find an answer to this inate, sinful nature although I could identify with Paul's problem. Realizing there in no condemnation but, sometimes there are old habits carried over from our youth that we, in later life, still cannot get a handle on and it continues to cause guilt in spite of the verse. I was waiting for some great answer after verse 24 but, for some reason Chapter 8 didn't provide it. He never said, "There is therefore now no guilt to them ......" Guilt will still abide and raise it's ugly head to torment despite the "no condemnation" clause Paul indicated in verse 1 of Chapter 8. It's like a festering cancer that doesn't go away and only provides guilt and a feeling of condemnation since we can't get a better handle on it than we would like to...a real thorn in the flesh and I think many of us still have it(in one form or other) with no hopes of it going away. Some people can do things and not feel much if any guilt or condemnation because, "Its all under the blood". That doesn't help others. Hope that made sense as I was beating around the bush a bit.

D46
You bring up a very GOOD point. When I was doing Mens ministry i dealt with allot of this ''guilt'' in men and especailly in new believers.
It is interesting that the Greek word for condemnation is the noun κατάκριμα . It follows the adverb νυν and is only used three times in the NT all in Romans. It means to be continually damed. In the english grammar it makes no sense but it the Greek it makes perfect sense.

Anyway, I got side tracked.
Here is something that every Christian should be aware of, know it and believe it.

When ever I am feeling ''GUILTY'' of something I sit back and ask myself this question?
I am being convicted or accused ?

Conviction will only come from the Holy Spirit.
Guilt / condemnation / and accusation will only come from the devil.

If your feeling convicted, confess your sin to God and move on..

If your feeling condemned, Accused or guilty after you have confessed your sin to God, then simply Rebuke the devil in Jesus name, because there is no damnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

It is a simple truth, but often so simple we complicated.

 

[jgredline]

I know that this is supposed to be Romans 7. This is another case where the chapter breaks happen in the wrong place. For the sake on context, I will start here.

Romans 6:1-23 nkjv
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 7:1-6 nkjv
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.


OK
I will be picking this up in Verse 14 or Romans chapter 6 again for the sake of context.

6:14 A reason is given why sin shall not have dominion over us as believers. The first reason was that our old man was crucified with Christ. The second reason is that we are not under law but under grace.
Sin does have the upper hand over a person who is under law. Why? Because the law tells him what to do but doesn’t give him the power to do it. And the law stirs up dormant desires in fallen human nature to do what is forbidden. It’s the old story that “forbidden fruit is sweet.â€Â

I heard Jon Coursen say once. ''Temptation will always come in sugard form''.

Sin does not have dominion over the person who is under grace. The believer has died to sin. He has received the indwelling Holy Spirit as the power for holy living. And he is motivated by love for the Savior, not by fear of punishment. Grace is the only thing that really produces holiness.
I can't say this enough. Over and over in my post, I try to cement this truth in the Christian.

Those who are afraid of grace insist that it gives license for sinning. Paul meets this error head-on by asking the question, then flatly denying it. We are free from the law but not lawless. Grace means freedom to serve the Lord, not to sin against Him.
the question was, “Shall we continue in sin?†Here the question is, “Shall we sin just a little?†The answer in both cases is a horrified “Certainly not!†God cannot condone any sin at all.

I have also mentioned this before and will mention it again. To understand paul, or ''pauline theology'' there are a couple things that any good bible student should remember. I will throw you a bone
1) Paul ask allot or Rhetorical questions.
2) Paul was a sarcastic fellow who loved a Good appologetics fight.

It is a simple fact of life that when we submit ourselves to someone as our master we become that person’s slave. Likewise, if we sell out to sin, we become slaves of sin, and eternal death lies waiting at the end of that road. If, on the other hand, we choose to obey God, the result is a holy life. Sin’s slaves are bound by guilt, fear, and misery, but God’s servants are free to do what the new nature loves. So why be a slave when you can be free?
“Thank God that you, who were at one time the servants of sin, honestly responded to the impact of Christ’s teaching when you came under its influence†(JBP). The Roman Christians had given wholehearted obedience to the gospel of grace to which they had been committed, including all the doctrine Paul teaches in this Letter.
Correct doctrine should lead to correct duty. Responding to the truth that they had been set free from sin as master, they became slaves of righteousness. The phrase free from sin does not mean that they no longer had a sinful nature. Neither does it mean that they no longer committed acts of sin. The context shows that it is referring to freedom from sin as the dominating power in life.

Once more to quote Jon Coursen
''Proper doctrine was taught by Christ, Explained by Paul and practiced in Acts''


In verse 18 the apostle spoke of slaves of righteousness, but he realizes that those who live righteously are not actually in bondage. “Practical righteousness is not slavery, except when we speak after the manner of men.†Those who practice sin are slaves of sin, but those whom the Son sets free are free indeed.

Paul explains that, in using the simile of slaves and master, he is speaking in human terms; that is, he is using a familiar illustration from everyday life. He does this because of the weakness of their fleshâ€â€in other words, because of their intellectual and spiritual difficulty in understanding truth when it is stated in general terms. Truth often needs to be illustrated in order to become intelligible.

Again. Paul uses things that people are familliar with for his illustrations, just as Jesus did like the non fiction story of the Rich man and Lazarus


Before their conversion the believers had surrendered their bodies as slaves of all kinds of uncleanness and to one kind of wickedness after another. Now they should dedicate those same bodies as slaves of righteousness, so that their lives would be truly holy.

Paul challenges them (and us) to inventory the fruits of an unsaved life, fruits in those activities of which believers are now ashamed

Conversion changes a man’s position completely. Now he is free from sin as his master, and he becomes a willing slave to God. The result is a holy life now and everlasting life at the end of the journey. Of course the believer has eternal life now too, but this verse refers to that life in its fullness, including the glorified resurrection body.

The apostle summarizes the subject by presenting these vivid contrasts:
Two mastersâ€â€sin and God.
Two methodsâ€â€wages and free gift.
Two aftermathsâ€â€death and eternal life.
Notice that eternal life is in a Person, and that Person is Christ Jesus our Lord. All who are in Christ have eternal life. It’s as simple as that!
Those that don't have Life; have an eternity to come up with excuses as to why they rejected the free gift of eternal life. These people will be debating with the Devil and his angles in the lake of fire. (Rev20)

Now we get to chapter 7

The apostle now anticipates a question that will inevitably arise: What is the relationship of the Christian to the law? Perhaps Paul had Jewish believers especially in mind in answering this question, since the law was given to Israel, but the principles apply just as much to Gentile believers who foolishly want to put themselves under the law as a rule of life after they have been justified.
In chapter 6 we saw that death ended the tyranny of the sin nature in the life of the child of God. Now we will see that death likewise ends the dominion of the law over those who were under it.
7:1 This verse is connected with 6:14: “You are not under law but under grace.†The connection is, “You should know that you are not under lawâ€â€or are you ignorant of the fact that the law has dominion over a man only when he is alive?†Paul is speaking to those who are familiar with fundamental principles of law, and who therefore should know that the law has nothing to say to a dead man.
To illustrate this, Paul shows how death breaks the marriage contract. A woman is bound by the marriage law to her husband as long as he lives. But if he dies, she is released from that law.
If a woman marries another man while her husband is living, she is guilty of adultery. If, however, her husband dies, she is free to marry again without any cloud or guilt of wrongdoing.
In applying the illustration, we must not press each detail with exact literalness. For example, neither the husband nor the wife represents the law. The point of the illustration is that just as death breaks the marriage relationship, so the death of the believer with Christ breaks the jurisdiction of the law over him.
Notice that Paul does not say that the law is dead. The law still has a valid ministry in producing conviction of sin. And remember that when he says “we†in this passage, he is thinking of those who were Jews before they came to Christ.
We have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ, the body here referring to the giving up of His body in death. We are no longer joined to the law; we are now joined to the risen Christ. One marriage has been broken by death, and a new one has been formed. And now that we are free from the law, we can bear fruit to God.
7;5 This mention of fruit brings to mind the kind of fruit we bore when we were in the flesh. The expression in the flesh obviously doesn’t mean “in the body.†In the flesh here is descriptive of our standing before we were saved. Then the flesh was the basis of our standing before God. We depended on what we were or what we could do to win acceptance with God. In the flesh is the opposite of “in Christ.â€Â

I should have mentioned this earlier. I will throw out another bone..Again in pauline theology when Pauls speaks of the ''flesh'' he is speaking of spiritual things. When the Apostle John speaks of the flesh, he is speaking of human flesh''

Prior to our conversion we were ruled by sinful passions which were aroused by the law. It is not that the law originated them, but only that by naming and then forbidding them it stirred up the strong desire to do them!

These sinful passions found expression in our physical members, and when we yielded to temptation we produced poison fruit that results in death. Elsewhere the apostle speaks of this fruit as the works of the flesh: “adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries†(Gal. 5:19–21).

Among the many wonderful things that happen when we are converted is that we are delivered from the law. This is a result of our having died with Christ. Since He died as our Representative, we died with Him. In His death He fulfilled all the claims of the law by paying its awful penalty. Therefore we are free from the law and from its inevitable curse. There can be no double jeopardy.

This will end this part of Romans. Any questions, please ask.
I should also mention, that the reason I spent so much time on this section is because it is crucial to understand that it is impossible to live under the law and this is what paul is trying to drill into our / their heads.

It is the Law that shows us how sinful we are. It is the Law that should give us an appreciation of the cross. If it does not, then we need to ask. Am I born again?

 

[Atonement]

Wow, someone has really done their homework. If I had a disagreement, I would not know where to start, it's all been covered so throughly.. Thanks brother

 

[jgredline]

Wow, someone has really done their homework. If I had a disagreement, I would not know where to start, it's all been covered so throughly.. Thanks brother

Thanks
I have been working on this for a few days. I left out a bunch of stuff to shorten it.

 

[Oscar3]

wow
Lots to read.
thanks

 

[Jay T]

At the outset, let me start by saying that I am a sinner saved by Grace through the blood that was shed on the cross of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I say this because there is a teaching out there that once a person is born again, they are no longer sinners.

When Jesus said: 'go and sin no more', (John 5:14 & 8:11)......He meant, don't commit sins which one knows to be sin.
Christ understands that people can fall into sin, by acting before one thinks.

There are teachings out there that Churches should not preach on sin, because it leads to more sin.

Those who practice sin will not be allowed into heaven......
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There is teaching out there that says, christians should not point out the sins of other Christians because in doing so, they sin and thus both loose the blessing.

OK.what about this Bible verse.....
33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.




Romans 7 was written about the UNsaved person wanting to be saved.


Does this Bible verse sound like a person who already has Jesus Christ as a Savior ?
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
OR...does this sound like a person wanting salvation ?

Why would they use the words: 'O wretchted man that I am'....if they had already been delivered fron sin, knowing their salvation was assured ?

Had a person read Romans 6 ....FIRST.....they would have realized that as a Christian, sin has no dominiion over them.

Yet, the whole context of Romans 7 reveals, that sin is dominating that person's life.

UNLESS....Romans 6....7....8, is studied, all together.....a peron can comew to the wrong conclusion !

 

[jgredline]

Actually Jay T
That section of scriture really starts at chapter 4 and concludes at chapter 8.
While I agree with some of the points you made I must say that in Romans 7 PAUL is speaking of himself. Now I am quite familiar with the 4 Views of Romans. You have already expressed that the wretched man speaks of is an unsaved person. This teaching has a very small following as it would take to much scripture twisting for it to work.
Let me explain.

Law Cannot Save from Sin
Romans 7:13-25
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


OK
So look at the use of the pronouns (I) here. Who is paul speaking of?
You will also see he is also speaking in the present tense, not the past tense. Go back and look at verse 13.. There he is speaking in the past tense, and then goes to the present tense.

Now I know many people have problems with this. How can Paul be a sinner?
Remember, Paul called himself the chief of sinners in his epsitle to timothy.

You see the Law (chapters 4-7) are showing paul what a sinner he or we are.
He is using those chapters to set up chapter 8. Up until Chapter 7 there has been little referace to the Holy Spirit and now Romans 8 is all about the Holy Spirit. The third part of the trinity. Romans 8:5-11 speaks of the war of the flesh with the war of the HS. In verses 12-13 Paul says ''12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live... Now this is almost sounds like a Christian who can loose his salvation right? But if you keep reading in chapter 8 you will see this is not the case..

For now I need to go, but I will continue with this as soon as I can.

 

[JM]

Romans 7:21 "I find a law..." Sin is a law and evil is always present, the use of the law is important to bring our sins to our attention and drive us to Christ as mentioned in Galatians. This is a lawful use of the law...and there is such a thing as antinomianism.

Asking ourselves...do I consider myself a good person? My first response is to think about it, and then say, “sure, I’m a good person.†But am I really a good person according to the Bible? Lets look at the standard [the 10 Commandments] and see how I [and you] stack up.

1. “You shall have no other gods before me.â€Â
Is God first in my life? Do I love God above all else? If I love anything – even my own life more then God, I’m setting up my affection on the gift rather then the Giver, which is breaking the first commandment. I’m judging myself according to this rule.

2. “You shall not make for yourself any gaven images.â€Â
This means that I shouldn’t make a god to suit myself, either with our hands or in our minds. So far, I’ve already wanted to say, “Hold on. God is a God of love and wouldn’t judge me.†But this is setting up a god that doesn’t exist. Is your God the one revealed in the Holy Scriptures? It seems the God of the Bible does have a standard and if I deny God and His expressed attributes found in the 10 Commandments in anyway, I have committed the oldest sin in the Book. Scripture warns that no idolater will enter the Kingdom of God.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.â€Â
Now I ask myself, “Have I ever taken God’s name in vain?†I have, and this is called blasphemy, no blasphemer can enter the Kingdom of God.

Lets skip ahead a few commandments…

7. “You shall not commit adultery.â€Â
Jesus warned that whoever looks at another with lust has committed adultery in their hearts. Remember that God has seen every thought you have and every sin you have ever committed. The day will come when you have to face His Holy Law, and we are told that impure, fornicators [those who have sex outside of marriage], and the adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God.

8. “You shall not steal.â€Â
Have I ever taken something that belonged to someone else, regardless of its value? Then I'm are a thief and cannot enter God’s Kingdom.

So far, I’m not stacking up so well. I’ll never make it to heaven let allow even SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. The Bible warns, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.†Can you see our predicament? I’m guilty, you’re guilty as well, of sinning against God Himself, and because we have a conscience, we have sinned with knowledge. Isn’t it true that every time we've lied, stole, lusted, etc. we knew that it was wrong? Does the fact that you have sinned against God scare you, cause it scares me. It should and I’m concerned for your soul. You have actually angered Him by your sin. The Bible says that wrath abides on me and you for our sins.

But God Himself is not willing that all should be left in a spiritual desert and perish in sin. It was no small thing that Jesus died for sinners. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of God’s Holy Law was the suffering and death of the sinless Son of God in our place.

I believe the Heidelburg Catechism explains it well:

Question 3: From where do you know your misery?
Answer 3: From the Law of God. Rom. 3:20; 7:7

The law allows us to see our sinful nature by exposing our sin to us and bringing us to Christ. Gal. 3:24

Q4: What does the Law of God require of us?
A4: Christ teaches us in sum, Matthew 22: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Luke 10:27; Deut. 6:5; Gal. 5:14

Q5: Can you keep all this perfectly?
A5: No, for I am prone by nature to hate God and my neighbor. Rom. 3:10-12, 23; I John 1:8, 10; Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:3

I firmly believe by examining ourselves in light of God's law [example given above] and pressing the Scripture into our conscience we root deep into our nature and expose ourselves as we truly are...sinners in need of Christ! This is a step toward mortification of the flesh and of course John Owen the great Puritan writter does a much better job at explaining it then I do, so I'll suggest you pick up his work and read.

Peace,

jm

 

[JM]

If your feeling convicted, confess your sin to God and move on..

If your feeling condemned, Accused or guilty after you have confessed your sin to God, then simply Rebuke the devil in Jesus name, because there is no damnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

It is a simple truth, but often so simple we complicated.

How do you know which sin to confess?

If you are still feeling condemned, did you confess the right sin?

If you rebuke the devil, could you be rebuking the Holy Spirit that is convicting you to confess the hidden sin you may not have repented of?

Just wondering, good topic.

jm

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

How do you know which sin to confess?

If you are still feeling condemned, did you confess the right sin?

If you rebuke the devil, could you be rebuking the Holy Spirit that is convicting you to confess the hidden sin you may not have repented of?

Just wondering, good topic.

jm

JM

I have discovered that it is best to ask God what is wrong, when I don't get it right away. You can spend a lot of time shooting in the dark, hoping to hit something, if you don't. God has never had any problem in spelling it out for me.
There has been a time or two when He has had to say it more than once for me to hear it, and sometimes He wants me to wait because there is more to it than He wants me to know right at that moment. (Sometimes it is a conviction not waiting on Him)

 

[JM]

Thx Gabby, the questions were rehetorical in nature.

 

[jgredline]

JM
''I really enjoyed your post :smt023 I would not have thought about using the 10 commandments as a ''Great example'' I was going to summerize the law this evening, But really you saved me the work Indeed as I alluded to earlier and as you showed,

JW WROTE:
Romans 7:21 "I find a law..." Sin is a law and evil is always present, the use of the law is important to bring our sins to our attention and drive us to Christ as mentioned in Galatians. This is a lawful use of the law...and there is such a thing as antinomianism.

Asking ourselves...do I consider myself a good person? My first response is to think about it, and then say, “sure, I’m a good person.†But am I really a good person according to the Bible? Lets look at the standard [the 10 Commandments] and see how I [and you] stack up.

To put this in context Paul was in line and likely to have become the head of the Sanhedrin. Paul was a man who knew the law and kept it as well as any man could, but when confronted by the Holy Spirit, he sees himself as a wretched sinner because he can't keep the law, and thus in chapter 8 he goes into his exhortation......There is now no condemnation for those who are in christ Jesus...

JM
I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on Romans...

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Thx Gabby, the questions were rehetorical in nature.

 

[jgredline]

JM
I have discovered that it is best to ask God what is wrong, when I don't get it right away. You can spend a lot of time shooting in the dark, hoping to hit something, if you don't. God has never had any problem in spelling it out for me.
There has been a time or two when He has had to say it more than once for me to hear it, and sometimes He wants me to wait because there is more to it than He wants me to know right at that moment. (Sometimes it is a conviction not waiting on Him)

LittleAngel

Yes. Let me use the scriptures to affirm what you have just said.

Romans 8:5-17 nkjv
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Now I can spend a ton of time here and perhaps JM can add a little or allot to this; But in a nut shell hhere is what paul is saying.
As I alluded to earlier, Romans 8 ''is all about the Holy Spirit''
Keep in mind that the book of Romans was written to and for the believer. This book was not written to the non believer as many people believe. Simply read the fisrt Chapter of Romans in particular the first 17 verses will I will cover in more detail a little later. I say this because it may look like I will contridict myself, but this Chapter, Romans 8 will also let you know if you are a Christian or not. This Chapter and Book really has shown thologians like Martin Luther and John Wesley and I can name others who have said,
They never realized they were NOT saved until they read and studied Romans....

OK, v 5) Those who live according to the fleshâ€â€that is, those who are unconvertedâ€â€are concerned with the things of the flesh. They obey the impulses of the flesh. They live to gratify the desires of the corrupt nature. They cater to the body, which in a few short years will return to dust.
But those who live according to the Spiritâ€â€that is, true believersâ€â€rise above flesh and blood and live for those things that are eternal. They are occupied with the word of God, prayer, worship, and Christian service. LittleAngel, The first thing I noticed about you, is that your quick to Pray and pray for others. This is something only a Child of God would do. This of course is also in line with your spiritual Gift of intercession... So this is one evidenace of many.
To be carnally mindedâ€â€that is, the mental inclination of the fallen natureâ€â€is death. It is death as far as both present enjoyment and ultimate destiny are concerned. It has all the potential of death in it, just like an overdose of poison. I often ask people or my students, ''what kind of dirt are you. Take a look at the paparable of the 4 soils. Only 1 is saved.....
But to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The Spirit of God is the guarantee of life that is life indeed, of peace with God, and of a life of tranquility. ''The Holy Spirit will NEVER ASK OR TELL YOU TO DO SOMETHING THAT IS AGAINST SCRIPTURE'' To be in harmony with the Holy Spirit, is to have peace in your heart....

The mind-set of the flesh is death because it is enmity against God. The sinner is a rebel against God and in active hostility to Him. If any proof were needed, it is seen most clearly in the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ. The mind of the flesh is not subject to the law of God. It wants its own will, not God’s will. It wants to be its own master, not to bow to His rule. Its nature is such that it cannot be subject to God’s law. It is not only the inclination that is missing but the power as well. The flesh is dead toward God.

It is no surprise, therefore, that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Think of that! There is nothing an unsaved person can do to please God â€â€no good works, no religious observances, no sacrificial services, absolutely nothing. First he must take the guilty sinner’s place and receive Christ by a definite act of faith. Only then can He win God’s smile of approval.

When a person is born again, he is no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit. He lives in a different sphere. He not only lives in the Spirit, but the Spirit lives in him. In fact, if he is not indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Through the ministry of the Spirit, Christ is actually in the believer. It is amazing to think of the Lord of life and glory dwelling in our bodies, especially when we remember that these bodies are subject to death because of sin. I was counseling a Pastor about 4 years ago that had a problem with porn.... I went through this section of Romans with this pastor, and pointed out to him. When you are viewing Porn on your computer, You are making Jesus watch them with you!!! He repented and has not viewd it since. I still call him from time to time to check up on him. He does not go to my church, infact I have only met him twice. It was a God ordained meeting......
The reminder that the body is still subject to death need cause no alarm or despair. The fact that the Holy Spirit indwells our bodies is a guarantee that, just as He raised Christ from the dead, so He will also give life to our mortal bodies. This will be the final act of our redemptionâ€â€when our bodies are glorified like the Savior’s body of glory. LittleAngel. As I sit here and Type Away, I can't help but sit back and praise God for his son Jesus

Now when we see the stark contrast between the flesh and the Spirit, what conclusion do we draw? We owe nothing to the flesh, to live according to its dictates. The old, evil, corrupt nature has been nothing but a drag. It has never done us a bit of good. If Christ had not saved us, the flesh would have dragged us down to the deepest, darkest, hottest places in hell. Why should we feel obligated to such an enemy?

Those who live according to the flesh must die, not only physically but eternally. To live according to the flesh is to be unsaved. This is made clear in 8:4, 5. But why does Paul address this to those who were already Christians? Does he imply that some of them might eventually be lost? No, but Paul often includes words of warning and self-examination in his Letters, (Again when studing Pauline theology, this is crucial to understand...)Realizing that in every congregation there may be some people who have never been genuinely born again.
The rest of the verse describes what is characteristically true of genuine believers. By the enablement of the Holy Spirit they put to death the deeds of the body. They enjoy eternal life now, and will enter into life in its fullness when they leave this earth.
Another way of describing true believers is to say that they are led by the Spirit of God. Paul is not referring here to spectacular instances of divine guidance in the lives of eminent Christians. Rather, he is speaking of what is true of all sons of Godâ€â€namely, that they are led by the Spirit of God. It is not a question of the degree in which they are yielded to the Holy Spirit, but of a relationship which takes place at the time of conversion. Again, the Holy Spirit will NEVER, preach againt the scriptures e.g. Homosexuality, stealing, Cursing, etc.

Sonship implies reception into God’s family, with all the privileges and responsibilities of adult sons. A new convert does not have to wait a certain time before he enters into his spiritual inheritance; it is his the moment he is saved, and it applies to all believers, men and women, boys and girls.
Those living under law are like minor children, bossed around as if they were servants, and shadowed by the fear of punishment. But when a person is born again, he is not born into a position of servitude. He is not brought into God’s household as a slave. Rather, he receives the spirit of adoption; that is, he is placed in God’s family as a mature son. By a true spiritual instinct he looks up to God and calls Him “Abba, Father.†Abba is an Aramaic word which suffers in translation. It is an intimate form of the word fatherâ€â€such as “papa†or “daddy.†While we may hesitate to use such familiar English words in addressing God, the truth remains that He who is infinitely high is also intimately nigh.


There is so much more to say, but quite frankly, I am pretty tired.....

I can't go just yet.
If there is a battle raging within the believer as to good and evil, or accusation vs conviction, then I am encouraged.... Its when we make peace with sin and there is no conviction, that one needs to question his/her salvation...

There is this certain Priest who has made peace with the Sin of Homosexuality. ACCORDING TO THIS SECTION OF ROMANS 8 , may I suggets this person is not saved, based on two simple facts..
1) There is no war between the sprit and the flesh or this preist would have repented...
2) The holy spirit would never teach against the very Scriptures he inspired.e.g Homosexuality......

 

[Jay T]

JM

I have discovered that it is best to ask God what is wrong, when I don't get it right away.

This is the method every person who calls themselves: Christian, should follow.

It is the ONLY way one will ever get into heaven !!!

One reason the Christian world at large does not know...what Salvation is.....is because they have failed to understand what the Bible defines as sin.

Salvation is 'from' sin (Matthew 1:12).

BUT, if a person still continues to commit some sin, which the Bible has defined as sin......there is no salvation, from sin, because one is still practicing sin, which salvation is suppose to free, one from.

You can spend a lot of time shooting in the dark, hoping to hit something, if you don't. God has never had any problem in spelling it out for me.

One can only say this, because one has studied their Bible to know God's will.
The Bible is the instruction book, for the person who wants eternal life, and there is no salvation, apart from learning everything, revealed in the Bible (Both OT & NT) !

There has been a time or two when He has had to say it more than once for me to hear it, and sometimes He wants me to wait because there is more to it than He wants me to know right at that moment. (Sometimes it is a conviction not waiting on Him)

This is perhaps the greatest test to a Christian......waiting.

PLease remember, that patience is just one of the charateristics of a true Christian.....

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Abraham had to wait some 25 years for God to deliver HIS promise for a son.

Jesus Christ had to wait some 33 years....before, the object of HIS mission could be accomplished.
Jesus could have come and died on the cross, in a much sooner time frame.....BUT....there were things that needed to be done first.