Rules for Communion

[Cynthia]

Hi everyone, I've been a christian for 16 years and I'm married with two children.

I have a question that has just recently concerned me in regards to communion. I just recently found out that the church we've been going to doesn't allow the kids to partake in communion unless they have been baptized first. This concerns me because although I am aware that baptizing is a part you must decide to do as a christian, I don't remember anything in the bible that says you must be baptized first BEFORE taking communion.
Also, I have never seen nor heard anyone in the main sanctuary prevent the adults to partake or announce it in service before communion to not participate unless you have been baptized. Why are they inforcing it with the children and not with the adults.
This sounds too much like a religion to me and I always felt that christianity was more of a relationship with christ and not a religion. What do you think? Am I overreacting?

 

[Free]

It's hard to say why it seems they have this double standard. I can see them wanting believers only to partake of communion, which could mean that they consider baptism necessary for salvation. Maybe they assume that those adults who do partake know this and are already baptized.

You would really have to talk to someone, like an elder.

 

[Cynthia]

Thanks for your response. I did call the church and spoke with the children's pastor. He just simply said that this is what the church inforces. He went on in reading the church's mission statement to me but I did tell him that I had read the statment before heading to the church and I didn't read anything about being baptized first. He replied with, "It doesn't say it directly but if you put two and two together..." Although I felt it was a bit condescending of him I did say to him that although I didn't agree with him, I respected whatever their church wanted to do. I haven't returned to the church since. I just wanted to know what everyone's opinion is about being baptized before participating in communion and if I may have overreacted in my feelings.

 

[Sparkey]

Pardon me for saying but it seems reasonable to me for a pastor be allowed (expected) to lead. In order to avoid emotional issues, let's imagine some hypothetical kids that are not your children. Let's further promote you to Pastor and let you consider what is best for your flock, yes?

Ask yourself -- what reasons might be behind the parents choice to not baptize their kids? Maybe it's the child's choice that is being given weight by the parent? We don't know, but it doesn't matter. Think outside the box, if you'd like -- I'm trying to design this question so that it considers all circumstances.
________________________________

The pastor didn't sound (by your description) too interested in you. Keep praying that the Lord lead you to the one He wants over you but my advice would be to not rule that church out just because. My ideal church would be one that has a lot of members who set themselves out and actually demonstrate love and wisdom in their family relationships. Dogma, to me, is secondary. As long as they don't contradict fundamental doctrine and are not advocating sin (greed comes to mind) -- I don't see how form matters more than substance.

 

[Cynthia]

I see what you're saying. I do believe the church is doing some good things there and their intention is not to change the doctrine.
There was no issue about I or any parent not allowing their children to be baptized. I'm not sure if the example you gave me was because you misunderstood me or you're thinking perhaps the pastor thought that was my intention, it really isn't. My husband and I speak to our children often in regards to the importance of baptism among other topics of the Lord so I know my son will let us know when he's ready. My daughter has shown interest recently.

I think my concern was that they were allowing unbaptized children to see baptized children take communion and telling the unbaptized children they could not partake because they were not baptized. This made it appear a bit taunting and as a child, that will only make them want to be baptized for the sake of partaking in communion instead of the real reasons such as the washing of our sins and the gift of the holy spirit. Not to mention that my son felt bad about being denied and wanted to come to our service from then on (we did have a talk with him which made him feel better, but who knows if other children feel this way).

In addition, never once did the pastor let the congregation know that baptism must be done before we can participate in communion. Baptism is not mentioned at all before communion which lead me to question why they would enforce this on the children and not on adults who are of a more mature mind and understanding of what the Lord expects of us? It just seemed like it was easier for them to deal with denying children of this gift God has given us than to deny adults who could argue with it.

To further my confusion, the pastor said that it might not be necessarily what he believes but what the church believes. I think that the church is enforcing their opinion rather than truth which I'm not sure is right or wrong. But if you can direct me to scripture in the bible that states we cannot participate in communion unless we are baptized, I would greatly appreciate it. I wouldn't want to mislead my kids if it is so. We want to lead our children in the right path so that they are less likely to stray when they grow older.

We have found another church we are happy with and in the end, all that matters is that as christians, we live a life that honors God.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Baptism too many times is used in place of born again, and it is not made clear that salvation is what matters, not baptism itself. Baptism is an outward showing to the world that we have taken Christ as Lord and Savior.

Are the children born again? If so then by all means they should partake, no matter if other children are watching who have yet taken that life changing step.

To be perfectly honest who are we to judge others when they partake. IMHO, that is between them and God. In my church it is made perfectly clear that communion or the Lord's Supper as we call it is open to any and all born again Christians, and if anyone, not born again partake, nothing is said, as I mentioned that is between them and God.


"Should communion be open or closed?"

Answer: The Bible's teaching on Communion, or the Lord's Supper, is found in 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 and promotes "open" participation for believers. All those who are true believers in God through personal faith in Jesus Christ, His Son, are worthy to partake of the Lord's Supper by virtue of the fact they have accepted the death of Christ as payment for their sins (see also Ephesians 1:6-7).

The actual reasoning behind some churches practicing "closed" communion seems to be that they want to make sure everyone partaking is a believer. This is understandable; however, it places church leadership and/or church ushers in a position of determining who is worthy to partake, which is problematic at best. A given church may assume that all of their official members are true believers, but even this is not necessarily always true.

The practice of restricting communion to church members seems to be an attempt to make sure someone doesn't partake in an unworthy manner, which some assume to mean that person is not a true Christian. However, the word is not “unworthy” but is “unworthily.” This is referring to the manner in which a person partakes of the bread and cup, not to his or her worthiness to participate in the first place. No one is really worthy to come into the presence of God for any reason, but by virtue of the shed blood of Christ on the cross, all who believe in Him have been made worthy. 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 is clearly addressed to believers, not unbelievers. Beginning this passage in verse 23, it is obvious Paul is talking about believers partaking of the Lord's Supper and thus they "proclaim the Lord's death till He comes" (verse 26). Also, Paul concludes the passage by calling the readers "brethren" (verse 33). Therefore, the passage is warning believers to avoid partaking in an unworthy manner. This unworthy manner is described as excluding others when you come to communion and partaking of the elements to curb one's hunger (verse 34).

So, communion should be "open" to all believers, but those believers should examine their motive for partaking. If believers are irreverent in their attitude toward communion because of prejudice or appetite, they should voluntarily refuse to partake, or, in some extreme cases, should be counseled by church leadership not to partake. May the Lord bless you in understanding the Biblical message and meaning of communion, so the practice can be a real blessing to you.
http://www.gotquestions.org/communion-open-closed.html

 

[Vic C.]

Communion should be open to all professed saved people. Baptism in many churches is the outward profession of that inner change when you are born again. At least that is how it is my my church. (SBC) But if you are a professed person in my church but have not yet been baptized, you can still partake. The Communion, that Lord's Supper, the Eucharist (the giving of thanks) is between the believer and God.

Only HE knows your heart.

 

[jasz]

I have been to some churches were they don't let the children take Communion at all and then others where they let the children take it. I truly feel like if the child understand the reason why we take Communion that it is ok for them to take it. My son is two and he tried it once but he didn't like it, he is not at that age yet where he understands what he is taking. So i basically say if they know the reason why they are taking it I don't see any problem.;)

 

[handy]

Just a couple of observations here:

When looking at what might be considered "pre-requisites" baptism I find basically, "Look, here's water, what's to prevent me from being baptized." (Acts 8:36)

But, when it comes to communion, we are outright told that communion is something to be entered into with self-examination. Paul warned that some even died when taking communion in an unworthy manner.

There's a lot of debate in regards to having very young children or infants be baptized. I would say that if a child is too young to be baptized...then s/he is too young for communion.

If one doesn't believe the same way...I'd like to see Scriptures that support the idea of keeping very young children from baptism, but allowing them communion.

I guess what I'm saying is that I can understand
a: allowing for the baptism of a very young child/infant, but waiting for the child to be old enough for self-examination prior to communion. (Given that children were most likely part of the households that were baptized...see Act 16:31-33)

b: restricting the young child/infant from both baptism and communion until s/he is old enough to express belief in Christ...then baptize the child and allow for communion. (What we did with our kids.)

but I cannot understand where there is Scriptural evidence to say that it's OK to allow a child to have communion, but say that they are too young for baptism. I just don't see biblical support for this at all.

Ummm, I was going to add more, but I guess my next thoughts are truly a new thread...

 

[Mtwildman]

FrustratedForumer
It is ver inmportant that you must be corrected on 1 Corintians 11:17-34 This passage does not teach "Communion, or the Lord's Supper" it clearly says...

1 Corinthians 11:17-22 (KJV)
<SUP>17 </SUP>Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
<SUP>18 </SUP>For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
<SUP>19 </SUP>For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
<SUP>20 </SUP>When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
<SUP>21 </SUP>For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
<SUP>22 </SUP>What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1 Corinthians 11:34 (KJV)
<SUP>34 </SUP>And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.



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[Mtwildman]

What did Jesus tell us about this bread?
Lets not take Mans word for it and the traditions of the churchs (religions) Let us take a look at what Jesus himself tells us from scripture!
John 6:32-35 (KJV)
<SUP>32 </SUP>Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
<SUP>33 </SUP>For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
<SUP>34 </SUP>Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
<SUP>35 </SUP>And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:41 (KJV)
<SUP>41 </SUP>The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:47-58 (KJV)
<SUP>47 </SUP>Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
<SUP>48 </SUP>I am that bread of life.
<SUP>49 </SUP>Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
<SUP>50 </SUP>This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
<SUP>51 </SUP>I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
<SUP>52 </SUP>The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
<SUP>53 </SUP>Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
<SUP>54 </SUP>Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
<SUP>55 </SUP>For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
<SUP>56 </SUP>He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
<SUP>57 </SUP>As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
<SUP>58 </SUP>This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John 6:63-64 (KJV)
<SUP>63 </SUP>It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
<SUP>64 </SUP>But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.



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[Mtwildman]

So now lets ask ourselves about this living bread that Jesus says he is... Who is Jesus Christ? John 1:1,4 (KJV)
<SUP>1 </SUP>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
<SUP>4 </SUP>In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:12 (KJV)
<SUP>12 </SUP>But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:14 (KJV)
<SUP>14 </SUP>And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now that we see what Scripture tells us, who is Jesus Christ? He is the WORD of God! So if Jesus is the Word of God, and Jesus tells us he is the bread of life, what is the bread of life? The bread of life is The Word of God!
But there is one more thing to consider. We are also told... "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Eve to them that believe on his name. What is His name? I thought it was Jesus Christ! What does God tell us his name is? What does scripture tell us?
Revelation 19:11-13 (KJV)
<SUP>11 </SUP>And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
<SUP>12 </SUP>His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
<SUP>13 </SUP>And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



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[Mtwildman]

So to conclude... If the bread of life is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is the Word of God, and he tells us even those that believe on his name; which is the Word of God, then what is this bread he is truly speeking of? It is his HOLY WORD! these words we read that are written in the Bible. Lastly how are we called to the Father? By the Word!
Romans 10:13-17 (KJV)
<SUP>13 </SUP>For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
<SUP>14 </SUP>How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
<SUP>15 </SUP>And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
<SUP>16 </SUP>But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
<SUP>17 </SUP>So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So we see that we are called by His HOLY Name.
John 8:43 (KJV)
<SUP>43 </SUP>Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 14:23 (KJV)
<SUP>23 </SUP>Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



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[Mtwildman]

Friends; Do not take mans teachings for granted, believing what the religions of the world teach. The religions of the world were always about there own traditions. Not Gods tradtions.
Matthew 15:1-3 (KJV)
<SUP>1 </SUP>Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
<SUP>2 </SUP>Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.<SUP>3 </SUP>But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mark 7:5 (KJV)
<SUP>5 </SUP>Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mark 7:6-8 (KJV)
<SUP>6 </SUP>He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
<SUP>7 </SUP>Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
<SUP>8 </SUP>For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:9 (KJV)
<SUP>9 </SUP>And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:13 (KJV)
<SUP>13 </SUP>Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:16 (KJV)
<SUP>16 </SUP>If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Become as noble as those in Berea:

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<SUP>11 </SUP>These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



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[handy]

Welcome to the discussion Mtwildman...

I was reading your first post in the study and noticed that you took quite a jump in the 1 Corinthians 11 passage.

The missing text is all about communion and the call to examine oneself before eating and to wait upon each other as well:

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28625">24</sup> and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.†<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28626">25</sup> In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.†<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28627">26</sup> For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28628">27</sup> Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28629">28</sup> But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28630">29</sup> For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28631">30</sup> For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28632">31</sup> But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28633">32</sup> But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28634">33</sup> So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.

Any particular reason why you left that part out on a discussion of communion? It seems pretty pertinent to the subject, especially when considering whether or not a little child can properly examine oneself... (although I bet a lot are better at it than most adults! ;) )

 

[Vic C.]

I agree with Handy. That passage IS referring to the Lord's Supper. What Paul is saying is that what the Corinthians were doing wasn't in accordance to the Lord's Supper, as it was revealed to Paul by Jesus. They were adding a whole mess of things to the observance. They came to eat and drink, to practice gluttony and drunkenness, but that is not what the Lord's Supper is or should be all about.

Paul suggested they do their eating at home.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Welcome to the discussion Mtwildman...

I was reading your first post in the study and noticed that you took quite a jump in the 1 Corinthians 11 passage.

The missing text is all about communion and the call to examine oneself before eating and to wait upon each other as well:

Any particular reason why you left that part out on a discussion of communion? It seems pretty pertinent to the subject, especially when considering whether or not a little child can properly examine oneself... (although I bet a lot are better at it than most adults! ;) )

I too would love to see reasoning for this omission?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Church politics-

"I just recently found out that the church we've been going to doesn't allow the kids to partake in communion unless they have been baptized first."

This or that Denomination/local church may have ANY NUMBER of paradigmatic "Religious RULES" that they feel the need to "Bind" their people to.

It doesn't surprise me a BIT that a church you've been attending would set that requirement. Other "variations of the theme" are "Members ONLY", "Sacramentalists ONLY", "Born again Christians ONLY", Folks OVER the age of accountability ONLY, (and, of Course "Catholics ONLY") etc.

NO, there's nothing in the Bible that SPECIFICALLY forbids Kids from taking communion - mine always have if they wanted to, and our denomination (AoG) offers "OPEN Communion" for whosoever will. You have to remember that churches DON'T base their beliefs on the Word of God, but only on "Their interpretation" of the Word of God.

BUT in "Sacramentalist" denominations, the "Communion" (and often "Baptism") supposedly has "Spiritual magic" attached to it, and consequently there's a good deal of superstition connected with it related to "taking it wrongly".

YOUR decision, of course is whether or not to "Dance to their tune" - if the church offers a "package" that in other respects is meeting you need for a place of worship.

When the Southern Baptists refused my wife membership, since she HADN'T been baptised by a "Baptist Minister", she felt STRONGLY that the SBC wasn't the place for her, and we joined elsewhere.

Churches CAN, and politically are entirely within their rights to create and enforce any "Rules"/"Regulations" they please, and generally do so because of some "Paradigmatic interpretation" of a verse or two in the Bible.

 

[Cynthia]

Yes Handy, although Mtwildman you had some very good things to say, my main topic here was of how anyone felt about the particular church denying children from taking communion just because they are not baptized yet.

I have also gone to churches where the children do not participate at all in communion within their services and I'm fine with that because as it's been pointed out in 1 Corinthians 11:28-29 :
²⁸ But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. <sup id="en-NASB-28630" class="versenum">29</sup> For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

At a certain age, some children may be able to take a look within themselves and see fit to partake in communion. In this case though, the church is determining who is truely saved and who is not by who has been baptized. I don't see the connection of being baptized means you are a full-pledged christian. It almost sounds like a membership than a relationship with our Lord and having that mindset makes us no different than all those other religions that say, "You won't go to heaven if you don't do it this way."

There is a sense of freedom of choice when we are christian, and I don't mean the freedom to do whatever we want. I mean that God has given us free will to follow him completely or to fall away. I find this important because without this freedom, how do we know we are truely following with our hearts and not because our church is telling us to or else we can not participate in church activities (such as communion). I feel the purpose of our church is to fellowship, encourage faith, accountability in our actions and to serve God in a variety of ways.

Yes, a church must inforce the word if a member of our congregation has strayed far from the word. But I believe they should enforce with biblical backing and not because "in their opinion, you are not a full christian until you are baptized". Unless they have a specific verse that says that, that is strictly an opinion.

 

[Cynthia]

To reply on Bob C's comments:
Your comment has made me feel a bit disappointed on the church's behalf. What you say is pretty true and this is the first time I have experienced it. So for me, it took away a little bit of my confidence in the church.

I'm over that feeling now though because I know that although churches are lead by those who have been annointed to do the job, it's still man-lead and no man is perfect. So there will be some hiccups now and then.

And not to change the subject, but in the format you expressed yourself, I have to say you must be in sales. Or at least maybe you should be.