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sad, sad news

jgredline

jgredline

Member
In a profile of Graham in the current issue of Newsweek, managing editor Jon Meacham asks the 87-year-old evangelist whether those who belong to religions that reject Christ as savior (Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and secularists will be saved.

"Those are decisions only the Lord will make," Graham replied. "It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won't. ... I don't want to speculate about that."



Meacham hails Graham's conversion (so to speak) on the primary issue of salvation as an enlightened ecumenism, when it's really nothing more than age-old universalism – the erroneous idea that all roads lead to God and we're all going to get to heaven one way or another. This is the "I'm all right, you're all right" philosophy of the world.

Well, if I'm all right and you're all right, then someone is going to have to explain the cross.

Meacham describes Graham's embrace of universalism in glowing terms, similar to the way in which media elites like himself celebrate Republican legislators who adopt liberal voting patterns over time as having "grown in office." Thus, the Newsweek article is entitled "Pilgrim's Progress." Get it?

TO read the entire article in context click on link.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=51461
 
Good article. We've discussed this in great detail about a year or two ago, It has come to my attention that he has been "leaking" statements like this as early as the late 70's. It has become more evident though over the past several years.

Excerpt from your link.

He says Graham's newfound complexity and "gentleness of spirit" (i.e., as opposed to the rank mean-spiritedness of those who hold to the truth of Scripture) separates Graham from other far more incendiary and divisive religious figures – radicals like Graham's own son Franklin, who had the unmitigated gall to tell the truth about Islam being "a very evil and wicked religion" (his father, needless to say, strongly dissents).

Graham's redefining of salvation doctrine also separates him from any number of others who were considered radicals in their day.

One of them was the apostle Paul, who wrote by inspiration of God: "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." (I Timothy 2:5)

Another was the apostle John, who wrote by inspiration of God about Christ: "But as many as received Him, to them He [God] gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His [Christ's] name." (John 1:12)

Yet another was the beloved physician Luke, who wrote by inspiration of God concerning Jesus: "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) This verse is a four-fold declaration of the truth that salvation is found only in Christ, and in Christ alone.

How much clearer can it be?
Click to expand...
 
Yea
i too heard of it a while back and it has really saddened me to see him in many cult pages and sites. My wife and I support samaritans purse and have recieved many letters and heard many times how He (Franklin Graham) does not share the same views as his dad. Ann Graham lotts has also said she does not agree with her dads statements. Oh, well. :crying:
 
According to God's inerrant, immutable Word, salvation is based exclusively upon believing in Christ -- believing not being mere mental assent, but rather the placing of one's complete trust for eternal life in the Person of Christ and His completed work for us on the cross -- apart from which there is no possibility of being saved. John 3:36 tells us: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=51461
Click to expand...

So babies that die will go to hell. But of course, Christians don't generally want to say that, so in the case of babies and young children they will often claim an exception without any proof from scripture. (As far as I know.)
 
jgredline said:
"Those are decisions only the Lord will make," Graham replied. "It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won't. ... I don't want to speculate about that."
Click to expand...


This is a mainstream position within Christianity: that non-Christians will be saved or may be saved. As for Graham's, "I don't know, perhaps they could be saved", I think C.S. Lewis says about the same in Mere Christianity. (Another apostate I guess.)
 
undertow said:
According to God's inerrant, immutable Word, salvation is based exclusively upon believing in Christ -- believing not being mere mental assent, but rather the placing of one's complete trust for eternal life in the Person of Christ and His completed work for us on the cross -- apart from which there is no possibility of being saved. John 3:36 tells us: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=51461
Click to expand...

So babies that die will go to hell. But of course, Christians don't generally want to say that, so in the case of babies and young children they will often claim an exception without any proof from scripture. (As far as I know.)
Click to expand...

So what is the basis for these (babies & children) going to hell?
 

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:14

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:2-6


38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. 40 But as for you, turn you, and take your journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea. Deuteronomy 1:38-40

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time F16 Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:6-21

 
In a profile of Graham in the current issue of Newsweek, managing editor Jon Meacham asks the 87-year-old evangelist whether those who belong to religions that reject Christ as savior (Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and secularists will be saved.

"Those are decisions only the Lord will make," Graham replied. "It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won't. ... I don't want to speculate about that."

******
A couple questions from John: :wink:
Is this a forum for judging ones 'motives', and can you read a persons 'mind & heart'?? (even Graham's)

Graham's belief is not the issues is it? I surely do not believe 'his teaching', but I cannot see any flaw in this statement of his?? Who would think that the ones of Romans 2:14-15 believed in Christ's very Moral fiber or being? (EPISTLE of 2 Corinthians 3:3)

When one reads John 10:16 or Revelation 17:5, or Revelation 3:9 even, along with Revelation 18:4, surely any one can see that there ARE CHRIST'S VERY OWN inside of all the Babylonian mess! This is where the question arises! Christ is not there inside this satanic stuff, so the true MUST LEAVE when they are CONVICTED of their mistake! [But the Holy Spirit is the Agent to do this!] Not our reading of minds??

And yes, there is a huge difference in judging a person's mind against the satanic fold that they are in yoked membership with! The thing that we are to do is take the Gospel to ALL PEOPLE. Matthew 28:18-20 with emphasis on verse 20! And it seems to be a good remark to think that God can do the Judging of any who never get the extra Truth of the Everlasting Gospel! If not, where does that leave [you]??? Remember that some of us birds are dieing long before we have all truth! :wink:

---John
 
Today's word from http://www.anchorlife.org seems relevant here




Growing in Your Relationship with God

Today


The Race


Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. (NIV) Hebrews 12:1

The analogy of running the race is used in many places throughout the New Testament. The people of that day understood the analogy. Races were conducted on days of national festivity. The emperor was in regal attire sitting within his purple curtained booth. There was row upon row reaching upward of a vast multitude of spectators. Every eye was fixed on the runners who were straining their muscles. The aim of athletes was nothing short of winning. To win the race demanded stamina, perseverance, dedication, and discipline. The runners were willing to give up everything to win the gold. Champions received the adulation and unlimited benefits from his city.

The Christian life is not a short sprint, but rather like a marathon for a runner. It is hard work. The word for race in the Greek is "agon." It is the root word that we get our word "agony." The race is an agonizing, tough marathon. . .26 miles, 385 yards.

The author of Hebrews tells us to run with perseverance the course marked out for us. It is your own unique course planned out in advance by God for you. It is wonderfully reassuring that we only have to run our course. We do not have to run someone else's race, only our own.

Paul writes:
** For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (Ephesians 2:10).
** Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind & straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14).

As you run, don't look around, and don't look back. Look straight ahead so that you stay on the right course. Keep your FOCUS! After all, you will have enough to handle on your own course!

Written by Marji "Mike" Kruger


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Saturday's Reading: 1 Kings 4-6 & Hebrews 7

Sunday's Reading: 2 Chronicles 1-6 & Hebrews 8

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Galatians 1 curses any, 'even an angel' who preaches 'any other gospel'

John 3, Romans 3, Galatians 2:15-16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 etc are clear @ the gospel - sinners are saved by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice

John 14:6 & Acts 4:12 may be even clearer @ Christ as 1-&-only Saviour

Romans 2 says that those who haven't heard the gospel, but know from seeing creation that there must be a Creator, & do their best to please Him, in the light they have, are acceptable to God

What shows the reality of that is that, when such folk then hear the gospel, they accept Jesus - I've heard Billy G say that, decades ago: maybe, @ 87, his mind is going, in which case, God understands the confusion of elderly & sick folk

I'm @ 30 yrs younger, but I find myself getting more & more forgetful, as I know others do

Paul commended the Bereans, in Acts 17, for 'searching the Scriptures to see if these things are true' - even when he himself was preaching

Humans aren't infallible: only God's Word is

Must go!

Ian
 
John the Baptist said:
In a profile of Graham in the current issue of Newsweek, managing editor Jon Meacham asks the 87-year-old evangelist whether those who belong to religions that reject Christ as savior (Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and secularists will be saved.

"Those are decisions only the Lord will make," Graham replied. "It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won't. ... I don't want to speculate about that."

******
A couple questions from John: :wink:
Is this a forum for judging ones 'motives', and can you read a persons 'mind & heart'?? (even Graham's)

Graham's belief is not the issues is it? I surely do not believe 'his teaching', but I cannot see any flaw in this statement of his?? Who would think that the ones of Romans 2:14-15 believed in Christ's very Moral fiber or being? (EPISTLE of 2 Corinthians 3:3)

When one reads John 10:16 or Revelation 17:5, or Revelation 3:9 even, along with Revelation 18:4, surely any one can see that there ARE CHRIST'S VERY OWN inside of all the Babylonian mess! This is where the question arises! Christ is not there inside this satanic stuff, so the true MUST LEAVE when they are CONVICTED of their mistake! [But the Holy Spirit is the Agent to do this!] Not our reading of minds??

And yes, there is a huge difference in judging a person's mind against the satanic fold that they are in yoked membership with! The thing that we are to do is take the Gospel to ALL PEOPLE. Matthew 28:18-20 with emphasis on verse 20! And it seems to be a good remark to think that God can do the Judging of any who never get the extra Truth of the Everlasting Gospel! If not, where does that leave [you]??? Remember that some of us birds are dieing long before we have all truth! :wink:

---John
Click to expand...


John
That I can see nobody id judging Billy Graham.
Here is the thing.
On Larry King live he said he was ot sure Jesus is the only way. He said his Faith is in Jesus and will let God sort everything else out.
A statement that his son Franklyn Graham disagreed with.
Infact during the past 3 years Billy has made remarks such as the God of Islam is the same and that many muslims will be saved and again Franklyn Graham disagrees with. There has been far to many negative things said. Personally and my wife brought it up yesterday, that the devil is doing all he can to tarnish the great work this man has done. As much as I hate to say it God needs to take him home.
j
 
The world pretty much loves him, right? I've never met an (uncompromised) man of God that the world embraced. Red flag.
 
jgredline said:
John the Baptist said:
In a profile of Graham in the current issue of Newsweek, managing editor Jon Meacham asks the 87-year-old evangelist whether those who belong to religions that reject Christ as savior (Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and secularists will be saved.

"Those are decisions only the Lord will make," Graham replied. "It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won't. ... I don't want to speculate about that."

******
A couple questions from John: :wink:
Is this a forum for judging ones 'motives', and can you read a persons 'mind & heart'?? (even Graham's)

Graham's belief is not the issues is it? I surely do not believe 'his teaching', but I cannot see any flaw in this statement of his?? Who would think that the ones of Romans 2:14-15 believed in Christ's very Moral fiber or being? (EPISTLE of 2 Corinthians 3:3)

When one reads John 10:16 or Revelation 17:5, or Revelation 3:9 even, along with Revelation 18:4, surely any one can see that there ARE CHRIST'S VERY OWN inside of all the Babylonian mess! This is where the question arises! Christ is not there inside this satanic stuff, so the true MUST LEAVE when they are CONVICTED of their mistake! [But the Holy Spirit is the Agent to do this!] Not our reading of minds??

And yes, there is a huge difference in judging a person's mind against the satanic fold that they are in yoked membership with! The thing that we are to do is take the Gospel to ALL PEOPLE. Matthew 28:18-20 with emphasis on verse 20! And it seems to be a good remark to think that God can do the Judging of any who never get the extra Truth of the Everlasting Gospel! If not, where does that leave [you]??? Remember that some of us birds are dieing long before we have all truth! :wink:

---John
Click to expand...


John
That I can see nobody id judging Billy Graham.
Here is the thing.
On Larry King live he said he was ot sure Jesus is the only way. He said his Faith is in Jesus and will let God sort everything else out.
A statement that his son Franklyn Graham disagreed with.
Infact during the past 3 years Billy has made remarks such as the God of Islam is the same and that many muslims will be saved and again Franklyn Graham disagrees with. There has been far to many negative things said. Personally and my wife brought it up yesterday, that the devil is doing all he can to tarnish the great work this man has done. As much as I hate to say it God needs to take him home.
j
Click to expand...

****
I do not see it that way either. "As much as I hate to say it God needs to take him home."
---John

 
What was spoken by Mr. Graham is not universalism. He did not say that everyone goes to heaven. Nor do I suspect that he things all paths lead to heaven. From an invincible ignorance perspective I agree that we cannot judge the hearts and minds of man. Cornelius in Acts 10,11 was said to be a righteous and God fearing man. Yet he was not a jew or christian. Nor did he likely have a trinitarian view of God. Would he have gone to heaven if he died at that moment. I don't believe the scriptures tell us. They do say that Peter brought salvation to him but salvation is a perseverence in God's grace to the end. A finishing of the race as Paul would say. If knowledge of God has to be absolutely correct then we've all God problems. Most certainly he allows for some ignorance, though in my view it must be invincible, i.e. we could not have known as we did not recieve the grace to know. But the question is where on the sliding scale of the truth continuom of various isses is one saved and one not. I think luke 12 tells us that it varies from person to person. For he tells us that "the one who did not know will recieve a less severe beating" while the one who should have known was "treated like the unbeliever". Put all of this together and I think Mr. Graham is right. We cannot judge the hearts and minds of men. This is to be left to God. I'm no universalist ladies and gents. Don't accuse me of it. :-? Neither do I believe Mr. Graham is. We simply think that judging of hearts is a function reserved for God alone and we should be able to trust him to do his job, knowing in the end justice and mercy will both be served quite nicely.
 
This is the "I'm all right, you're all right" philosophy of the world.
Click to expand...

Actually the position I have and it sounds like Mr. Graham has the same one, is not that everyone is all right. We are told "judge not least you be judged". Now I will not misconstrue this verse to say that we are not to judge between right and wrong, true and false doctrine in this life. To me the clear understanding in context is that we are not to judge one unto damnation. But here's the thing. Neither are we to judge one unto salvatoin. For me that is what Mr. Graham is saying. Leave the judging up to God. Let go and let God. Once again not universalism at all. True ecumenism also does not compromise the truth. Rather it seeks a dialogue in which it is expected that the truth will eventually shine above error. An ecumenism that compromises truth is definitely a false one.

Another question is what are the salvation critical doctrines that damn one to hell. We all have our different lists of course. It seems to me that some would say that there is a false ecumenism among some who say that some Catholics can be saved (I happen to be Catholic for those who do not know). Others say modalists and Arians can be saved. Some on this very board tell me that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon and the pope is the anti-christ, ie. the Christ of Catholicism is a false Christ, and the Gospel is a false Gospel. Yet they will say some Catholics are saved. :-? Sounds like the same kinda "ecumenism" that is being railed against in this thread. Where is the break? Who's list of go to the mat doctrines is the master list by which we have no false ecumenism skeletons in our own closets. I prefer to leave the cutoffs and judgement to God once again and judge neither the damned or saved.

This detachment allows one the freedom to understand that it is our job to plant seeds in the lives of others, knowing that God is working in their lives outside of our efforts to save them. He "desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.". We then don't need to appear so despart to them when we evangelize.

My 2 cents, and see my post above Drew's so that you get 4 cents worth from me. :-D
 
The problem arises after man becomes Born Again. He must get to this point first. Then he has to continue on maturing in obedience. If not? Then in time the presumptous sin will prove fatal. See Psalm 19:13 in the K.J.
David call's this the Great Transgression. All false doctrine when known will not stand the test! That is why there is seen the Revelation 17:5 :sad verse.

So: God requires mistakes to be cleared away! Philippians 4:13

---John
 
Billy Graham and his "later in years thinking"

Dear Friends: I agree with Thessolian. Rev. Graham is close to the end of his life. I believe he is a good christian. He has always preached that Jesus and Jesus alone saves. But like Rev. Graham I believe the final say is in God's hands.
If someone has grown up in Hinduism and follows exactly that doctrine then that is all that person knows. I think Rev. Graham is not as judgemental now about those type questions because at the end of your life judging people is not the important thing. The important thing is and always will be preaching Jesus on the cross, resurrection, and His going to be with God to prepare a place for all chritians. I for one can not say who exactly will be in heaven. Rev Graham stated in that interview that there were many questions he could not answer and would only know the answer once he got to heaven. I do not believe Rev. Graham was trying to push an agenda of univeralism by any means and we do not need to change his words around.
Just my opinion.

Thanks
Quartermile
 
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