Salvation and Blacksliding

[Nicole L. Sattler]

This is something I have been pondering for some time now...

I was reading a blog post the other day, and they said that a backsliding Christian would go to hell. I had to seriously think about that.

I was raised Christian, and when I was a teen, I always went to bible studies and church (about 2 or 3 times a week), but I would now say that back then I was a "backslider".

I had a problem with authority (especially with my parents), I had somewhat of a "potty mouth", and I wasn't into very good things. You probably would not think I was a Christian. I never lost my faith, though.

Now, was watching a YouTube video about a young girl who was pretty much in the same place as I was at that time. She had a NDE (near death experience), and said that she went to hell. Now, I am not sure about how I feel about near death experiences. I am not sure if the person actually died and went to hell, if it was just their brain or if it was God sending a wake up call.

Anywho, my point is if that really did happen to her, was it just supposed to be a wake up call to show her where she could end up if she didn't change her life? If she (or I) never changed our ways and lived as Christian "backsliders", would we lose our salvation? Is it possible to lose salvation if you still have faith?

 

[handy]

Nicole, I don't know about NDE's myself....they could be a vision God's gives to those who might be clinically dead, but are still a living soul, or it could be the real thing...just don't know enough about them to know.

But, I do know about backslidden Christians, because my parents were in that state almost the entire time I was growing up. Yet, even after all those years, they repented and turned back to God and lived lives filled with the fruit of the Spirit. Dad's death was a wonderful testimony to the faithfulness of God and Mom's life is as well.

I think there is real danger in backsliding, danger that one just might pass the point of no return and never turn back to God.

But, as long as one does turn back to God, as long as one repents and asks forgiveness, then one can be assured that God will surly forgive.

I do believe it is possible to "lose" salvation (although I don't think that is the best term by any means.) But, as long as one has the faith to repent and ask forgiveness, one has the assurance of being forgiven.

 

[Nathan]

I think Handy says it best. Its hard for me where I fellowship to express this. People there have been raised extremely southern baptist. And along with this upbringing is the doctrine of once saved always saved. Which is where this whole issue lies.

I think the whole thing to keep in consideration is that we cannot "loose" our salvation quite frankly because we do not "possess" it as such. And this is where the whole issue of faith comes in. We only "posses" salvation by faith. Right? So if you abandon your faith, then what makes a person think that they will still keep a hold of the 'outcome' of that faith?

1Pe 1:8-9 Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

The simplicity of the matter is that salvation is being kept safe for us in the hands of Him who gives it. And its not only just this, but all things that accompany salvation - namely repentance. Repentance is even something that has to be given to us by God. In effect, its His way of calling to us and showing us He cares.

The point in all of this is what a wise man named Solomon once wrote;

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.

The idea is that we are His creation. Original sin is the idea that we are somehow able to be in 'likeness' of the whole of Who God is. And so God confines all under sin, gives us repentance, then gives us faith, and will ultimately give us salvation.

"Backsliding" is really a term that is misused. Repentance is the key to understanding salvation and faith. Once you understand repentance, then you will understand salvation. But its impossible to understand salvation apart from repentance. Faith falls in between the two and links them together.

 

[Nathan]

1Peter is a wonderful book to study to start to get a grasp on this subject. Followed up by 2Peter for a deeper study.

 

[ronniechoate34]

This is something I have been pondering for some time now...

I was reading a blog post the other day, and they said that a backsliding Christian would go to hell. I had to seriously think about that.

I was raised Christian, and when I was a teen, I always went to bible studies and church (about 2 or 3 times a week), but I would now say that back then I was a "backslider".

I had a problem with authority (especially with my parents), I had somewhat of a "potty mouth", and I wasn't into very good things. You probably would not think I was a Christian. I never lost my faith, though.

Now, was watching a YouTube video about a young girl who was pretty much in the same place as I was at that time. She had a NDE (near death experience), and said that she went to hell. Now, I am not sure about how I feel about near death experiences. I am not sure if the person actually died and went to hell, if it was just their brain or if it was God sending a wake up call.

Anywho, my point is if that really did happen to her, was it just supposed to be a wake up call to show her where she could end up if she didn't change her life? If she (or I) never changed our ways and lived as Christian "backsliders", would we lose our salvation? Is it possible to lose salvation if you still have faith?

I don't know if it's possible to lose your salvation if you still have faith.


I know backsliding has been a problem for me, and I spend more time beating myself up over the sin than it actually took me to committ the sin.


I long for a new mind, one that never has an impure thought and always is aimed at God.


Is my backsliding meant to keep me humble and sorrowful before the Lord? Am I doomed to an eternity separate from God? Ultimately these questions will be answered by Jesus Christ. I pray that He has mercy on us all because we're all rotten sinners.

 

[Scandinavian27]

Jesus did say that the wages of sin is death, so this applies broadly to a believer or non-believer. I think there is a big difference in willful sin and a brief stumble, though. And as long as a believer repents and asks for forgiveness, God will never turn his back on them.

 

[Nathan]

1John gives us no room for thinking that we can 'continue' in sin and state that we "know Him".

1Jo 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

In my estimation it would be very 'presumptuous' to say that we can practice sin and say we are 'children of God'. It all rests in the idea, or interpretation, of what "backsliding" is. If its a stumble, or a moment, of sin then that is something that a person of faith may sometimes be guilty of. But if its a life practice, something that is done habitually, then there is no Biblical basis that a person can ascertain that they are "living" in faith.

The whole fact revolves around the solid truth that faith changes an individual. That is exactly why John states that we should not be deceived, and it is clearly evident, that the one who practices evil is evil, and the one who practices righteousness is righteous.

The question becomes what does one classify "backsliding" as? A moment of sin? A continual life of sin? One thing we probably would all agree it is would be that one has to have shown some "sign" or "testimony" of having been changed at one time in the past.

 

[Scandinavian27]

The question becomes what does one classify "backsliding" as?

Personally, I would think of backsliding to be more than just a momentary stumble. It would be defined as willful sin that a person continues to appease their own flesh; the whole time knowing it is wrong and offends God. Whenever I have heard someone use the term applicable to themselves, they have turned away from God and righteousness for a few months or so.

 

[Nathan]

I don't know if it's possible to lose your salvation if you still have faith.


I know backsliding has been a problem for me, and I spend more time beating myself up over the sin than it actually took me to committ the sin.


I long for a new mind, one that never has an impure thought and always is aimed at God.


Is my backsliding meant to keep me humble and sorrowful before the Lord? Am I doomed to an eternity separate from God? Ultimately these questions will be answered by Jesus Christ. I pray that He has mercy on us all because we're all rotten sinners.

There really is no reason to "beat ourselves up" over sin. When you do that you spend more time focused on the sin, rather than on the One who came to take away our sins. The very definition of "sin" is 'missing the mark'. So if you focus the things that you have "missed the mark" instead of focusing on the mark, then how will you ever "hit the mark" - aka - not sin?

We have a "new" mind. But it only 'takes over' when we practice it. That is why they say faith is not just a mental thing, its also a physical thing. The fact is that faith is not some 'mental ascension' to a higher level. Faith transforms in a way that can be seen. James makes the vital point that faith without works is dead. Not because you have to do something, but the simple fact that faith will do something.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Here's the idea, or rather the fact; the above passage is not a "if/then" statement. Its a factual, will happen statement. Paul is stating that if you are living according to the flesh - aka you are not in the faith - then you will be setting your mind on the things of the flesh. However, if you are living according to the Spirit - aka born again believer living in faith - then you are going to be setting your mind on the things of the Spirit.

This is a passage we can look at as a comparison to what we sometimes have a hard time understanding of faith as. For instance, if someone says that they are a born again believer yet still practices sin, then obviously they are "living according to the flesh" and likewise have their minds set on fleshly things.

Paul clarifies this in verse 9. The kicker is that some think that faith is a mental climb to this level of "belief", when in reality its a simple trust in the provisions and work that God is doing Himself in the life of a true believer. See, you cannot 'believe' unless you have faith. It is only when you obey that you will start to actually "believe". Obedience is the manifestation of faith, because without faith you could not obey. But when you find that you can indeed, and actually do obey His commandments, then you will find that you have real faith.

This is all 'out of our hands' in order that all the glory and praise will go to Him who does this in us. The only thing 'in our hands' is obedience.

Rom 6:16-19 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

 

[Nathan]

Personally, I would think of backsliding to be more than just a momentary stumble. It would be defined as willful sin that a person continues to appease their own flesh; the whole time knowing it is wrong and offends God. Whenever I have heard someone use the term applicable to themselves, they have turned away from God and righteousness for a few months or so.

Thats what I would classify it as too. But here is the kicker. What makes a person think that they can "turn away" from God, and still be walking with Him? And if we are not with Him, then does that not mean we are against Him? Or try this one on; a "Christian" is a 'follower of Christ'. But if we turn away from Him, how can we still be 'following Him'?

The scary thing is, and the Biblical matter of fact is, that we do not "come to God" on our terms. In fact, the Bible is clear that no one seeks for God. And the Bible is also clear that repentance is a gift that is given. So the scary thing is that some think they can just 'repent' when they want to and turn back to God. And we have a direct warning that deals with this very thing.

Hbr 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Esau was not given repentance. Plain and simple. The ugly truth also radiates out from this story in that Esau wanted the blessing that he thought was useless at one time, the same as some will want eternal life that they thought was useless at one time also. See, eternal life, that which will come through faith, is the exact same faith that also changes us. But many find themselves trapped in the desire of the flesh to not be changed, therefore they "sell" their faith for temporal pleasures.

I think that there can be backsliders that can return to faith, but I believe that it is only when they accept the simple fact that they are without Christ and true faith. The sad thing is that many will try and convince them that they have never "lost", better termed "sold", their salvation(through the faith they were given at their new birth - aka 'birthright'), and so try to convince them that all they have to do is something within themselves to come back to God; or worse yet that they have never been apart from God.

This is where 'hardness of heart' starts to form. Because repeated action like this eventually dulls the heart to the call of God, through His Spirit in us, to true repentance.

 

[Scandinavian27]

Completely agreed. We have to come to God on his terms, not the terms that we would like for ourselves. Many people have a very difficult time accepting this and end up falsely convincing themselves that they can still sin and be a child of God.

It also doesn't help when in this day and age, we have all these pseudo-preachers teaching false doctrine to the masses. Telling them things like ''you cannot ever stop sinning, it's human nature'' or ''say this prayer and you are guaranteed salvation and eternal life.''

The bible teaches that these people in authority who knew the truth but purposely deceived people, will be brought down the hardest, and rightly so.


If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

 

[ronniechoate34]

There really is no reason to "beat ourselves up" over sin. When you do that you spend more time focused on the sin, rather than on the One who came to take away our sins. The very definition of "sin" is 'missing the mark'. So if you focus the things that you have "missed the mark" instead of focusing on the mark, then how will you ever "hit the mark" - aka - not sin?

We have a "new" mind. But it only 'takes over' when we practice it. That is why they say faith is not just a mental thing, its also a physical thing. The fact is that faith is not some 'mental ascension' to a higher level. Faith transforms in a way that can be seen. James makes the vital point that faith without works is dead. Not because you have to do something, but the simple fact that faith will do something.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Here's the idea, or rather the fact; the above passage is not a "if/then" statement. Its a factual, will happen statement. Paul is stating that if you are living according to the flesh - aka you are not in the faith - then you will be setting your mind on the things of the flesh. However, if you are living according to the Spirit - aka born again believer living in faith - then you are going to be setting your mind on the things of the Spirit.

This is a passage we can look at as a comparison to what we sometimes have a hard time understanding of faith as. For instance, if someone says that they are a born again believer yet still practices sin, then obviously they are "living according to the flesh" and likewise have their minds set on fleshly things.

Paul clarifies this in verse 9. The kicker is that some think that faith is a mental climb to this level of "belief", when in reality its a simple trust in the provisions and work that God is doing Himself in the life of a true believer. See, you cannot 'believe' unless you have faith. It is only when you obey that you will start to actually "believe". Obedience is the manifestation of faith, because without faith you could not obey. But when you find that you can indeed, and actually do obey His commandments, then you will find that you have real faith.

This is all 'out of our hands' in order that all the glory and praise will go to Him who does this in us. The only thing 'in our hands' is obedience.

Rom 6:16-19 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

None of us are without sin, and we aren't capable of hitting the mark at all without the help of Jesus Christ.


We are saved by grace, and faith also comes from God. Without Jesus Christ none of us would have one whit of faith.


Jesus will save those that He is pleased to save. Will they be perfect people, or will they be sinners? Again, salvation belongs to Jesus. He knows a man's heart and I don't.


Luke:18:10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke:18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke:18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke:18:14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Completely agreed. We have to come to God on his terms, not the terms that we would like for ourselves. Many people have a very difficult time accepting this and end up falsely convincing themselves that they can still sin and be a child of God.

It also doesn't help when in this day and age, we have all these pseudo-preachers teaching false doctrine to the masses. Telling them things like ''you cannot ever stop sinning, it's human nature'' or ''say this prayer and you are guaranteed salvation and eternal life.''

The bible teaches that these people in authority who knew the truth but purposely deceived people, will be brought down the hardest, and rightly so.


If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

Romans:1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


I have been feeling ill lately. I've got to get myself back in place and get to work.

 

[Nathan]

None of us are without sin, and we aren't capable of hitting the mark at all without the help of Jesus Christ.


We are saved by grace, and faith also comes from God. Without Jesus Christ none of us would have one whit of faith.


Jesus will save those that He is pleased to save. Will they be perfect people, or will they be sinners? Again, salvation belongs to Jesus. He knows a man's heart and I don't.


Luke:18:10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke:18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke:18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke:18:14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

None of us are without sin, but that does not mean that we continue in it. And neither does it mean that we focus on sin. Jesus will save us, and we might not know about others, but we can be sure about that salvation.

1Jo 2:4-6 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

We can know our own heart, not anyone else's. Does that mean we can know it perfectly? No. But if our life dictates the opposite of what Jesus taught then we can know for sure that we are not walking in the truth. Are there times when we will doubt ourselves? Yes. Are there times of stumbling and times of sin? Yes. But those times will not persist. That is the whole point of 'coming to the light'. When we come to the light we can see whether or not we are in Christ, and He in us.

1Jo 5:10-13 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Its not about what we do but about what He has done in us. However, if what He has done in us is real, and not fake, then it will manifest itself in what we do. And if what we do is not according to His Word, then we are only fooling ourselves to think that we have something He has not given us.

 

[ronniechoate34]

None of us are without sin, but that does not mean that we continue in it. And neither does it mean that we focus on sin. Jesus will save us, and we might not know about others, but we can be sure about that salvation.

1Jo 2:4-6 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

We can know our own heart, not anyone else's. Does that mean we can know it perfectly? No. But if our life dictates the opposite of what Jesus taught then we can know for sure that we are not walking in the truth. Are there times when we will doubt ourselves? Yes. Are there times of stumbling and times of sin? Yes. But those times will not persist. That is the whole point of 'coming to the light'. When we come to the light we can see whether or not we are in Christ, and He in us.

1Jo 5:10-13 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Its not about what we do but about what He has done in us. However, if what He has done in us is real, and not fake, then it will manifest itself in what we do. And if what we do is not according to His Word, then we are only fooling ourselves to think that we have something He has not given us.

I thank God that though I am not what I desire to be, I 'm not what I once was.


Hebrews:12:1: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews:12:2: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews:12:3: For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hebrews:12:4: Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.


I have days when I conquer sin and days when I lose some battles. But I strive for the mastery still. And I do it lawfully, if I fail I buck up and take it to the throne. I could always hide out in the darkness and justify myself, but that ain't gonna get me anywhere.


Hebrews:12:6: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews:12:7: If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews:12:8: But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


I used to be of a much different mind about my sins, but God has changed all of that for the better.


I don't know you, but I am sure that you have faults that you struggle with, and if you don't, then that would just be weird.

 

[Vic C.]

This is something I have been pondering for some time now...

I was reading a blog post the other day, and they said that a backsliding Christian would go to hell. I had to seriously think about that.

I was raised Christian, and when I was a teen, I always went to bible studies and church (about 2 or 3 times a week), but I would now say that back then I was a "backslider".

I had a problem with authority (especially with my parents), I had somewhat of a "potty mouth", and I wasn't into very good things. You probably would not think I was a Christian. I never lost my faith, though.

Now, was watching a YouTube video about a young girl who was pretty much in the same place as I was at that time. She had a NDE (near death experience), and said that she went to hell. Now, I am not sure about how I feel about near death experiences. I am not sure if the person actually died and went to hell, if it was just their brain or if it was God sending a wake up call.

Anywho, my point is if that really did happen to her, was it just supposed to be a wake up call to show her where she could end up if she didn't change her life? If she (or I) never changed our ways and lived as Christian "backsliders", would we lose our salvation? Is it possible to lose salvation if you still have faith?

Hi Nicole,

I won't address the issue of whether or not one will lose their salvation; both sides of this belief have been battling that one out for hundreds of years.

What I will address is what we definitely lose. I don't believe anyone has brought this up so far. When we backslide, we lose out on all the blessing God has in store for us while alive. Not only do we lose out on the blessings, it affects our relationship with the Lord.

Our lives can become miserable and a tangled mess. Sometimes, God may leave us in that state for a while before drawing us nearer to Him again. Sometimes we just have to go through the fires in order to be purified.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Hi Nicole,

I won't address the issue of whether or not one will lose their salvation; both sides of this belief have been battling that one out for hundreds of years.

What I will address is what we definitely lose. I don't believe anyone has brought this up so far. When we backslide, we lose out on all the blessing God has in store for us while alive. Not only do we lose out on the blessings, it affects our relationship with the Lord.

Our lives can become miserable and a tangled mess. Sometimes, God may leave us in that state for a while before drawing us nearer to Him again. Sometimes we just have to go through the fires in order to be purified.

You make a really good point. I have never thought about it like that before, and that is so true.