Salvation....Paul vs God?

[Georges]

Salvation by faith only.....I don't think so..

Eze 33:12 ¶ Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.

No mention of "Salvation by Faith"....

Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

A warning to keep constantly vigilent...righteousness can be negated on the day of sin....No mention of a Once Saved Always Saved here......and no mention of a faith in the savior as a redeeming feature...

Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

Lawful and right....what would that be...? Torah obedience? Yep....

Eze 33:15 [If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.


What was that? Can't be......Let me get this straight, If the wicked turn from their way....and do what? "Walk in the statutes of Life" he shall live....

Wait a minute....that's not what Paul teaches....Paul teaches that you don't have to "Walk in the statutes of Life"...does he.

God through Ezekiel claims that "Works, (ie. obeying the Torah)" is what is necessary to obtain life....don't see were actually "faith only" is mentioned....

James is right...faith and works....emphasis on works...as a physical (outward) showing of faith. Paul claims "faith only"....that's not what Ezekiel quotes....that is unless you believe Paul had the authority to supercede Jehovah's word...

 

[ChristineES]

Ezekiel is in Old Testament, isn't it?

 

[Bruchko]

Not one of us is good, not even close to being good, so the thought of us being able to get into heaven by our good works is hogwash. I know your not saying that’s all it takes to get into heaven, but what Paul is trying to say is our good deeds aren't good enough therefore it’s not our deeds that get us into heaven. Jesus is who gets us into heaven, and only Jesus. Paul doesn't say, believe and run a muck in sin and your fine. He teaches us how to be in Christ. If we're truly in Christ then the goodness of him will flow out of us. As far as James saying faith with out works is dead. It's like if you tell your wife that you love her, but you never do anything for it. You live a selfish life only for you. Nobody is really going to believe that you love your wife, especially your wife. It's the same with Jesus. We can't just say we believe in Jesus and love him. Then do what ever our flesh desires. Then we're just saying it because we fear hell, not because we fear the Lord. Our consistent actions show what our true heart attitude is and that’s why faith with out works is dead. Not because your works help save you, but they show your treat heart attitude towards Jesus. When I buy my wife flowers, or do sweet things for her on a constant basis then people can see that I love her, and they know my true heart for my wife.

all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Jesus died for it, and since we are in Jesus then the price has been paid through that sacrifice. Thank God, because we are ALL wicked outside of Jesus.

I did shoot you a PM about sending me that PDF file though. I'm willing to read it to understand your point of view.

 

[lovely]

I opted to print the Scripture because the links to it are not functioning, at least not at the time of this post. I thought maybe I would post Paul's own words, and let them speak for themselves. The Lord bless you.

Romans 2: 17-29 Men shall not boast of their own righteousness

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Romans 3

The Purpose of the Law

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 4

ABRAHAM's EXAMPLE AND DAVID'S AGREEMENT WITH PAUL

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 6 What Paul Actually says
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Bruchko]

oops, double post.

 

[unred typo]

Hi Georges… still at it I see. Sad. Knocking over windmills. I tried to tell you that Paul has been misquoted but you won’t believe me. Who do you think wrote this:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

 

[lovely]

Just an additional note...Abraham had faith prior to circumcision...he believed, and then obeyed Him who he believed. I think that his is the point that Paul is making. He is not omiting obedience. The Lord bless you.

 

[ChristineES]

I don't see your point. Ezekiel is in the Old Testament, you know, before Jesus came. I have said this many times, but people who are truly saved WANT to do works; they do them because they want to, not because they have to. If you really look you can tell a true Christian from a person who just goes through the movements just by how they act.
For example, some drops their wallet. A true Christian will pick it up and return it, but if the person is not a true Christian, he MAY not give it back at all (notice I say may, please, I know that some nonChristians would give it back, too).
James meant that when he said "Faith without works is dead".
Another point, some people may do their works in private. Jesus said to not tell the right hand what the left is doing.

 

[Georges]

Sorry, I'd love to defend but can't ....Mod's are pulling my teeth on this one....It appears as if there was enough whining about me to cause a review of my forum (in good standing) status.... :bday: ....Good luck to all...

 

[Drew]

Hello Georges (and others):

Is there a not a "way of thinking" about grace that can harmonize the teachings of both Paul and the other writers of Scripture (such as Ezekial)?

In my unstudied view, Paul indeed seems to write things that certainly could easily be interpreted as promoting a "salvation by faith only" position. And yet we have other teachings, such as some of Jesus' words and writers like Ezekial, which seem to support a "works-based" salvation.

I speculate that we may not be thinking carefully enough about what it actually means to "have faith". I think that most N. American evangelicals see mental assent to the proposition that "Jesus died for my sins" as constitutive of "having faith". Perhaps this view is incorrect. Perhaps it is simply not sensible to say that we have accepted God's grace and yet not be inclined to passionately seek to obey the Law.

Could it not be argued that God forgives our sins through the substitionary death of Jesus, but if we, as free will agents (I am a big fan of the notion that humans some degree of free will) do not choose to obey we are simply being untrue to the very concept of "accepting grace". Why do we think that we can accept the gift of God's grace through Jesus' work on the cross and yet deny the necessity to follow the Law (which Jesus declared would not pass away). After all, the gift is Christ, and to accept Christ arguably necessitates obeying his teaching about following the Law - to not try to follow the Law means you have not really accepted grace - grace cannot be simple assent that "Jesus died for my sins".

I guess there are those who believe that grace fully suffices for salvation. But maybe we have lost sight of some "necessary conncetions" between accepting a gift (like the grace offered on the Cross) and some of the conditions that are required to not make such acceptance meaningless?

While I have only now begun to think about this, perhaps "accepting grace" involves more than "intellectual assent" to a certain scheme of cosmic justice, perhaps grace simply cannot be said to be really "accepted" unless there is an accompanying willingness to follow the Law. If we do not try hard to follow the law, we really only believe in grace in the most shallow and impoverished of ways.

 

[jgredline]

Sorry, I'd love to defend but can't ....Mod's are pulling my teeth on this one....It appears as if there was enough whining about me to cause a review of my forum (in good standing) status.... :bday: ....Good luck to all...

Georges
Are you really surprised by that. Your on a Christian forum and your preaching heresy. You in violation of TOS.

 

[unred typo]

Drew wrote:Is there a not a "way of thinking" about grace that can harmonize the teachings of both Paul and the other writers of Scripture (such as Ezekial)?


Drew, there is. Check out this thread started by R7-12, How to Discern Truth and the Spirit of God which swung in that direction: (hope this link works)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=23734

 

[jgredline]

George
You would break out with another one of your heretical questions and ideas.
Its to the point where I find great humor in your post and have finally figuered out your joking around. Your such a kidder. :-D :-D :-D

 

[Georges]

I am very much a kidder....but I'm very serious at the same time....

J, give me permission to send you the pdf that I've sent many others who had requested it....

I think you'd be hard pressed to refute it....it is from a proChristian website...www.jesuswordsonly.com.

If not for the reference value it has....either way whether you accept it or not, you win....therefore no harm in reviewing it....If after the 1st chapter you are not hooked (interested) in reading all 18 chapters (various Pauline subjects)...then I'll be very very surprised.

Shoot, even Thessalonian finally took the challenge...I plan on starting a thread in the near future asking opinion on the pdf....I'm very curious about others (yes even your's and Solo's) opinion on it, but I don't think Mr. S can handle it...emotionally anyway. I could be wrong and would like to be proven wrong...

 

[Vic C.]

jgredline,

George was kind enough to back down. Lets put this issue to rest for a bit and not fuel any fires, people.

I'm not going to lock it, but let evevy post from this point on be made to address the issue(s), not attack the person or persons, nor our Faith. We've been very lax concerning our TOS and SOF. We don't want to have to clamp down too tight. 8-)

Keep in mind people, that our rules concerning conduct are just as important in a public debate forum like this.

 

[jgredline]

jgredline,

George was kind enough to back down. Lets put this issue to rest for a bit and not fuel any fires, people.

I'm not going to lock it, but let evevy post from this point on be made to address the issue(s), not attack the person or persons, nor our Faith. We've been very lax concerning our TOS and SOF. We don't want to have to clamp down too tight. 8-)

Keep in mind people, that our rules concerning conduct are just as important in a public debate forum like this.

Vic
I hear you. I just get reved up when I hear the word of God getting disrespected. I think I will spend some time in the prayer threads.
jg

 

[jgredline]

jgredline,

George was kind enough to back down. Lets put this issue to rest for a bit and not fuel any fires, people.

I'm not going to lock it, but let evevy post from this point on be made to address the issue(s), not attack the person or persons, nor our Faith. We've been very lax concerning our TOS and SOF. We don't want to have to clamp down too tight. 8-)

Keep in mind people, that our rules concerning conduct are just as important in a public debate forum like this.

Vic
I hear you. I get reved up when I hear people distorting and disrespecting the word of GOD. Not so much for me and certainly God can take care of himself, but for the innocent sheep that are out there.
When Jesus WHO IS GOD and I know you know told peter take care of my sheep, he did not say take care of my goats. I have counceled many young male teens and much was a result of bad teaching.

I will go spend some time in the prayer thread. I try to visit it often and really should post there more than I do. I love praying for people and see the Gospel of Jesus change lives.
Anyway I am on my soap box so I will get off.
jg

 

[Georges]

jgredline,

George was kind enough to back down. Lets put this issue to rest for a bit and not fuel any fires, people.

I'm not going to lock it, but let evevy post from this point on be made to address the issue(s), not attack the person or persons, nor our Faith. We've been very lax concerning our TOS and SOF. We don't want to have to clamp down too tight. 8-)

Keep in mind people, that our rules concerning conduct are just as important in a public debate forum like this.

Vic
I hear you. I get reved up when I hear people distorting and disrespecting the word of GOD.

J, I'm not disrespecting the Word of God....in fact I'm defending it....but what is the "Word of God"? To some as yourself...it includes the Bible as we know it...To me, it is everything but the Pauline letters....as a matter of fact, technically, the only NT book to qualify as Scripture....may be The Revelation of Jesus Christ....why? Because that is the only book in the NT that is actually commanded to be written....I accept the Gospels...(even though they have been edited) because they do contain Jesus' words...and they do not conflict with the Torah...now if you call that disrespecting...and distorting...how so?


Not so much for me and certainly God can take care of himself, but for the innocent sheep that are out there.
When Jesus WHO IS GOD and I know you know told peter take care of my sheep, he did not say take care of my goats. I have counceled many young male teens and much was a result of bad teaching.

Maybe after te pdf, you will review your perspective on it....I'll send it monday....

I will go spend some time in the prayer thread. I try to visit it often and really should post there more than I do. I love praying for people and see the Gospel of Jesus change lives.
Anyway I am on my soap box so I will get off.
jg

 

[lovely]

Georges, you are in violation of the TOS, as it relates to the Bible.

excerpt from our TOS

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity, and the basic tenets of our Faith, will be considered a hostile act.

We can not allow you to promote the error that our Bible is false (even in part), because this is a hostile act toward one of the basic tenants of our faith, as defined properly by the TOS. Please read our Statement of Faith in full, but I will highlight the relevant part for you below.


excerpt from our Statement of Faith

The bible is the inspired, infallible, and only authoritative Word of God.

Please respect this, and the Lord bless you.

 

[Georges]

Georges, you are in violation of the TOS, as it relates to the Bible.

No Sir...I am not..I have not written anything but the truth.

excerpt from our TOS

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity, and the basic tenets of our Faith, will be considered a hostile act.

As you are getting in the tail end of a conversation and do not know my history of posting...maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge...I am promoting Christianity the way the Apostles at Jerusalem would have practiced it ....If the TOS Violation is due to my attack on PAULINE Christianity...then kick me off the Forum.....

We can not allow you to promote the error that our Bible is false (even in part), because this is a hostile act toward one of the basic tenants of our faith, as defined properly by the TOS.


Kick me off, it's no sweat off my back......If I am lying about the NT being edited...kick me off....Obviously you've never studied the subject or you wouldn't have made the statement...Again, I promote a Christianity that is God based throught Christ the way that the early Church (not Paulinist Christianity) would have practiced...

"We can not allow".....a free thinker....sounds like the same brainwashing technique by mainstream Christianity throughout the centuries...You say the NT isn't edited, I say it's been edited, historically. Sorry, but I feel I owe it to my fellow Christians to state that so they can make sure for themselves...If you want to kick me off for that, I'm sure you will have a lot of happy people about that...


Question to you ....Is the end of the Gospel of Mark and addition or not?


Please read our Statement of Faith in full, but I will highlight the relevant part for you below.


excerpt from our Statement of Faith
[quote:ea5aa]The bible is the inspired, infallible, and only authoritative Word of God.

Let me highlight my rebuttal....

The OT is inspired and infallible...the NT isn't (except of course for Revelation)...the proof is the many versions available now....if that is your shot at kicking me off...do it...It certainly won't be the first forum I've been kick out of....

Please respect this, and the Lord bless you.

Save it....I'm not a liar and haven't been proven to be yet....

[/quote:ea5aa]

Kick me off if that is the only way you can dispute what I stated.