dadof10
Member
That would be great. I've read your take before on other threads and it's spot on. I might even chime in some.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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That would be great. I've read your take before on other threads and it's spot on. I might even chime in some.
dadof10
Member
Not only that, Paul is addressing the Jews attitude concerning justification. I read a few articles written by Jews on the subject of the Jewish attitude on the Law and salvation a while back. From what these guys said, basically God chose these people (the Jews) to be His own and told them what to do. If they fulfilled these duties, God would be OBLIGATED to reward them, due to His promises. Their "works" put God in obligation to them!! This sounds shocking to our ears, but that was what they, themselves wrote their mindset was. One guy even wrote that love of God was unnecessary to salvation, even though he did love Him.
This devolved into a works based relationship instead of drawing His people closer to Him, which was the real point of the Law. Think about it, if God has "made a deal", so to speak, with His people, why would they need a savior?
I don't know how prevalent this attitude was in first century Palestine, but from the way Paul's letters sound, he at least had it in mind when railing against "works". I think he was including, at least tangentially, this attitude.
Drew
Member
At least two reputable scholars (of whom I am aware) - NT Wright and Ed Sanders - believe that the Jews of Jesus' day did not really have any sense of "earning salvation by being a good person - doing 'good works'". That idea, so the argument goes, was projected back onto the first century Jewish mind by certain reformers.
The point is this: It is only because we assume (and seemingly assume incorrectly) that first century Jews were thinking in terms of earning salvation by good works, that we read Paul as rejecting such a notion.
As I think we agree, the reality was that Paul was rebuking the Jew for believing that God had some sort of "covenantal obligation" to justify them as a race. So the Jew did not do the works of the Law of Moses - he did the works of the Law of Moses to mark out his membership in the special race that God had chosen to justify.
Paul, of course, disagrees, arguing that God's "true" covenant family always included non-Jews.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
jo
I have done all my explaining of Faith in relation to Salvation in this thread here !
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=29071&p=650601&highlight=#post650601
Just search out my posts, I have went into detail many times ! If you do not want to do that, then fine, you will not get an answer, I do not like explaining myself to people who already reject what I have plainly explained already !
I have done all my explaining of Faith in relation to Salvation in this thread here !
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=29071&p=650601&highlight=#post650601
Just search out my posts, I have went into detail many times ! If you do not want to do that, then fine, you will not get an answer, I do not like explaining myself to people who already reject what I have plainly explained already !
stormcloud
Member
I think Ephesians 2:8 can be further clarified by Galatians 2:16 where Paul says, "a man is not justified by the works of the Law...". In addition, Paul tells the Philippians (2:12) to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". When you add in Matthew 25:31-46 (in which Christ clearly condemns those who don't perform works of charity) the picture becomes even more clear.
If a parent gives a child money to buy a gift for the other parent, the child is unable to buy the present without the help of the first parent, however it's up to the child to pick out the present and make the transaction.
Faith is a gift from God and we cannot be saved without it, however that gift requires our participation. God gave us free will because we cannot truly love Him without it and He didn't make us to be merely puppets.
Also keep in mind that Christ uses the image of the vine and the branches to shed light on our relationship to Him. The branches cannot produce fruit without the vine, but not all branches that are attached to the vine produce fruit and they're pruned.
If a parent gives a child money to buy a gift for the other parent, the child is unable to buy the present without the help of the first parent, however it's up to the child to pick out the present and make the transaction.
Faith is a gift from God and we cannot be saved without it, however that gift requires our participation. God gave us free will because we cannot truly love Him without it and He didn't make us to be merely puppets.
Also keep in mind that Christ uses the image of the vine and the branches to shed light on our relationship to Him. The branches cannot produce fruit without the vine, but not all branches that are attached to the vine produce fruit and they're pruned.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
storm
Yes, the word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !
Yes, the word for works and what it means, covers all conditions, acts , deeds or performances by us as required to get saved !
The problem is that while your definition of faith is fine you then reject anyone who responds in faith as doing so out of works which therefore does not count.
Hebrews 11:6 clearly states that without faith it is impossible to please Him but whenever we speak of responding to God in faith YOU SAY that its works and therefore does not count BUT the word of God says that is the acceptable response to God.
John O
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savedbygrace57
Guest
You believe in a work salvation, not salvation by Grace !
dadof10
Member
That's an interesting take. I've not heard it before. I'm convinced, as are you, that Paul is speaking specifically about "works of the Law", not good deeds.
Yes, I do agree. The articles I read made that point, which is why one author wrote that love of God really had nothing to do with salvation in his mind. How the Early Church was to accept Gentiles was a HUGE issue. I don't think people grasp how long and drawn out it was. When Paul's letters are read in light of the council of Acts 15 and the decision by the council, they can't help but be interpreted as "faith vs. works of the law".
In my opinion, this is the underlying theme in all of Paul's letters and the focus by the Gospel writers for some of Jesus' sayings (acceptance of the Gentiles). After all, the letters are correspondence to real people that Paul knew. They had issues within their communities, which Paul addressed and many whole chapters were RESPONSES to these issues. If Gentile converts had to obey the Law, was a big issue. You would expect it to take a lot of Paul's ink. As you said above, if "earning salvation by good deeds" wasn't even on the radar, why would he even address it? He, and the entire Church, had more pressing issues to deal with.
Hebrews 11:6 states what it states I have only shared it to bring clarity on your comments, either it is what it says or God has a hidden explanation that we are not aware of.
How do you explain this verse in particular the bolded section. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
This clearly looks like work so why would God reward it, there must be a difference between work that is unacceptable to God and work that is acceptable to God.
Your thoughts.
John O
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savedbygrace57
Guest
My thoughts are that you believe in a work reward religion ! Which goes against scripture !
This goes against Salvation by Grace through Faith, not of works Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
When Paul said "not of works", you have not yet explained what type of works that Paul is talking about here in v9. There are different types of works that can be found in the bible; works of God, works of the Devil, works of the flesh; works of righteousness, works of merit, works of the OT law, etc, etc.
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Drew
Member
Excellent point. I suggest the context, especially the material beginning at verse 11, shows that Paul is focusing on the works of the Law of Moses here. Read that material please - it is clearly all about how "not being saved by works" means that the wall between Jew and Gentile is gone.
And what could that wall have been? What is it that would differentiate the Jew from the Gentile.
The works of the Law of Moses, of course!
Those who think that Paul is talking about good works in general in verses 8 and 9 only get away with it because people do not carefully read verses 11 and following.
There is really is no argument here - Paul is denying that the works of the Law of Moses justify; he is not denying that "doing good" is central to salvation.
Drew
Member
On the contrary, Paul is quite clear that "doing good" is indeed connected to final salvation:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
I am always fascinated to read the case against the plain reading of this text. People try the following:
1. Claim that Paul is speaking hypothetically (there is no justification for this, pun intended);
2. Claim that Paul is describing a judgement at which no Christian will appear (the text directly contradicts such a reading);
I politely suggest that no such maneuvers work - we have to accept that Paul means what he says here and see how we can reconcile such a teaching with his other teachings about justification by faith.
And we can indeed reconcile these things: Paul's basic argument is that it is only those who are empowered by the Spirit who can do "saving good works". And on what basis is the Spirit given in first place?
Faith.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
e bass
I did so, I gave you the definition of the word Paul used ! The word for works that Paul was inspiried by God to use is ergon which means:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
I did so, I gave you the definition of the word Paul used ! The word for works that Paul was inspiried by God to use is ergon which means:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Ernest T. Bass
Member
I agree. It could be that they were trying to keep the OT law in such a way that they were trying to earn/merit their salvation so they would have something to boast about.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
You gave a definition of the word "work" but did not specify what type of work Paul had under consideration. Was Paul considering works of God, works of the Devil, works of the flesh; works of righteousness, works of merit, works of the OT law...in verse 9?
I would respectfully add that the gift of eternal life, although not earned, is so precious that it is not given to just anyone who disdains it...
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Works don't earn salvation, but it appears that they surely can disqualify one from salvation.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
bass
Yes, and its definition is wide in scope and takes in many things !
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Yes, and its definition is wide in scope and takes in many things !
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: