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Bible Study Scattered Abroad
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
Of course. That's what it says.
This seems to be an obvious trick question, seeing as how you are a dispensationalist and separate entity theologian. You have the answer and have already made a distinction between this "church" and the 12 tribes mentioned in James 1:1.
So what's the significant difference between diaspora and disapeiro as it relates to yet another supposed distinction between Israel and the "church"?
Or, I could be jumping the gun, and I'd like to say I'm really...very...truly sorry if I am totally out of the way and said things that have nothing to do with the intent of your question. :-D
This seems to be an obvious trick question, seeing as how you are a dispensationalist and separate entity theologian. You have the answer and have already made a distinction between this "church" and the 12 tribes mentioned in James 1:1.
So what's the significant difference between diaspora and disapeiro as it relates to yet another supposed distinction between Israel and the "church"?
Or, I could be jumping the gun, and I'd like to say I'm really...very...truly sorry if I am totally out of the way and said things that have nothing to do with the intent of your question. :-D
wavy said:Of course. That's what it says.
This seems to be an obvious trick question, seeing as how you are a dispensationalist and separate entity theologian. You have the answer and have already made a distinction between this "church" and the 12 tribes mentioned in James 1:1.
So what's the significant difference between diaspora and disapeiro as it relates to yet another supposed distinction between Israel and the "church"?
Or, I could be jumping the gun, and I'd like to say I'm really...very...truly sorry if I am totally out of the way and said things that have nothing to do with the intent of your question. :-D
You did jump the gun.
Wavy, what do you believe the Church to be?
W
Windozer
Guest
Quoting Jesus Here.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, [ Peter means rock.] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades [ Or hell] will not overcome it. [ Or not prove stronger than it]
I'm well aware of that scripture. This speaks of new covenant Israel. The word for build also means to "strengthen/repair/restore".
Also, "church" is congregation. The ekklesia. The qahal. Israel was and remains Yahweh's one and only true congregation. All who are believers in Messiah are Israel.
Shem Tov Matthew (Hebrew version of Matthew, which is possible and probably what it was written in) adds "as a house of prayer" after "church/congregation".
This shows us that Yahshua's house (Hebrews 3:6) of new covenant Israel is a fulfillment of Isaiah 56:7, where sabbath keepers and those who love the true Name of יהוה and guard his mitzvot (commandments), and DO NOT SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM ISRAEL (Isaiah 56:3) are that house of prayer Yahshua also spoke of in Matthew 21:13.
Also, "church" is congregation. The ekklesia. The qahal. Israel was and remains Yahweh's one and only true congregation. All who are believers in Messiah are Israel.
Shem Tov Matthew (Hebrew version of Matthew, which is possible and probably what it was written in) adds "as a house of prayer" after "church/congregation".
This shows us that Yahshua's house (Hebrews 3:6) of new covenant Israel is a fulfillment of Isaiah 56:7, where sabbath keepers and those who love the true Name of יהוה and guard his mitzvot (commandments), and DO NOT SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM ISRAEL (Isaiah 56:3) are that house of prayer Yahshua also spoke of in Matthew 21:13.
S
Solo
Guest
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Revelation 1:17-20
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:7-13
W
Windozer
Guest
wavy said:Israel was and remains Yahweh's one and only true congregation. All who are believers in Messiah are Israel.
Well any way you cut it there is still a congregation which is a Church.
Any how your take on this sounds pretty wavy to me. Being as you can not support that with scripture... I Thank God that is not my interpretation. And I have got better things to do than to argue with you.
Merry Christmas.
Windozer said:Well any way you cut it there is still a congregation which is a Church.
I didn't catch the meaning of this sentence...
Any how your take on this sounds pretty wavy to me. Being as you can not support that with scripture...
Who Are The Elect? (Kinda Long But Important)
I Thank God that is not my interpretation. And I have got better things to do than to argue with you.
Merry Christmas.
No need to get angry...
W
Windozer
Guest
Hi wavy
I hope that will help you catch the meaning of that sentence... You have contradicted yourself.
Also you can not support your statement that the Church does not exist with scripture without including your interpretation of it, which does not agree with mine.
That is your assumption...I am not angry.
I said:Well any way you cut it there is still a congregation which is a Church.
You then said:I didn't catch the meaning of this sentence...
You previously said:Also, "church" is congregation. The ekklesia. The qahal. Israel was and remains Yahweh's one and only true congregation.
I said:Any how your take on this sounds pretty wavy to me. Being as you can not support that with scripture...
You then said:Who Are The Elect? (Kinda Long But Important)
You previously said:Nothing. It does not exist.
I hope that will help you catch the meaning of that sentence... You have contradicted yourself.
Also you can not support your statement that the Church does not exist with scripture without including your interpretation of it, which does not agree with mine.
I said:I Thank God that is not my interpretation. And I have got better things to do than to argue with you.
Merry Christmas.
You then said:No need to get angry...
That is your assumption...I am not angry.
Windozer said:I hope that will help you catch the meaning of that sentence... You have contradicted yourself.
No, I did not. When I said "'church' is 'congregation'", what I meant was that the word translated as "church" is really "congregation" (meaning there really is no such thing as the "church").
I then stated that Israel was the congregation. You said I did not have proof. I provided you with a link. So I did not contradict myself.
Also you can not support your statement that the Church does not exist with scripture without including your interpretation of it, which does not agree with mine.
So the criteria for determining what is and what isn't supported by scripture is based off of how it measures up to what you believe?
W
Windozer
Guest
wavy said:what I meant was that the word translated as "church" is really "congregation" (meaning there really is no such thing as the "church").
So what is your point? Ya the church is a congregation (one and the same thing.) I knew that when I was a young one.
Exactly what difference is that supposed to mean to Christians? You are ether part of a congregation or a Church.
I really think there is better stuff to concern myself with.
If you can't say it with scripture (with out adding your interpretation) I am not about to believe you is what I am saying.You also said:So the criteria for determining what is and what isn't supported by scripture is based off of how it measures up to what you believe?
So have a nice day...I will not argue with you.
Windozer said:So what is your point? Ya the church is a congregation (one and the same thing.) I knew that when I was a young one.
Exactly what difference is that supposed to mean to Christians? You are ether part of a congregation or a Church.
I really think there is better stuff to concern myself with.
You didn't get it...
"Church" does not mean "congregation". But that was only part of my point. My point is that people can be deceived by the word "church" as in separate entity. They may assume, "hey, well, Israel was never mentioned as the church, so it must be something different".
My point is that "church" means "congregation" and the congregation of Yahweh is Israel.
If you can't say it with scripture (with out adding your interpretation) I am not about to believe you is what I am saying.
So have a nice day...I will not argue with you.
Say what? What did I claim? That Israel is the "congregation"? Firstly, I gave you a whole link that proves this. Secondly, if you wan't something a little more clear, here it is:
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Stephen is speaking by the Spirit. He identifies Israel as the congregation here. And if this is not good enough, here's more:
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The congregation of the firstborn:
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith יהוה
, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And if this is still not good enough, please look up the word qahal (Strong's #6951) in the Hebrew (Greek equivalent of ekklesia/congregation) and see how many times it is used in reference to Israel, such as here:
Numbers 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and יהוה is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of יהוה?
W
Windozer
Guest
wavy.
According to you if we are believers in the Messiah we are Israel, and if we are Israel we are part of the church.
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. Just how does that information help me as a Christian?
According to you if we are believers in the Messiah we are Israel, and if we are Israel we are part of the church.
wavy said:Also, "church" is congregation. The ekklesia. The qahal. Israel was and remains Yahweh's one and only true congregation. All who are believers in Messiah are Israel.
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. Just how does that information help me as a Christian?
Windozer said:wavy.
According to you if we are believers in the Messiah we are Israel, and if we are Israel we are part of the church.
wavy said:Also, "church" is congregation. The ekklesia. The qahal. Israel was and remains Yahweh's one and only true congregation. All who are believers in Messiah are Israel.
Congregation, not "church", which is an improper term. Again, when I said "church" is "congregation" I meant the Greek word for "church".
It seems that you haven't understood this yet. Sorry if I've misunderstood you and you are not saying that.
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. Just how does that information help me as a Christian?
Well, I was never speaking to you to begin with. I was speaking to JM, who believes in something called the "church" that is not Israel.
So when you came in quoting Matthew 16:18, I assumed you were deceived by the word "church" as a separate entity.
I then replied by stating that the "church" (the Greek word for "church") is "congregation" and this congregation is Israel; NOT a separate entity of "gentile christians" or "saved gentiles" that distinguish themselves from Israel...
To "help" you "as a Christian" had nothing to do with my point...
W
Windozer
Guest
Well thanks for explaining in more detail Wavy.
But really...What difference does it make if we call it a Church or a congregation? I personally do not know many Christians who will not tell you that a Church is a congregation.
If your point has nothing to do with helping someone with their Christian journey... then Like I said... I have got better things to do.
Be well.
But really...What difference does it make if we call it a Church or a congregation? I personally do not know many Christians who will not tell you that a Church is a congregation.
If your point has nothing to do with helping someone with their Christian journey... then Like I said... I have got better things to do.
Be well.
Windozer said:But really...What difference does it make if we call it a Church or a congregation? I personally do not know many Christians who will not tell you that a Church is a congregation.
Well, it might not. Really, it doesn't (although "church" does not mean "congregation"). But, again, my point was to put it plainly to those who might think Messiah built some new thing called the "church". The phonetics and everything aren't that big a deal to me in this case. :-D
Didn't mean to make that impression.
If your point has nothing to do with helping someone with their Christian journey... then Like I said... I have got better things to do.
Be well.
Alright. Be cool.